After reading the two recently MP5 price inquires, one for a MP5/10mm Coharie and the other a MP5 built by Jason and I was thinking about listing my MP5/40 build with a German kit by Gillie, I’m wondering if the MP5 market is getting saturated?  At one guns build by Jason was desirable and a 10mm that ran was rare, is still not the case?  As for the roller marks I’ve shot several with roller marks without a problem.  That only shows that at one time the buffer needed to be replace or possible the wrong locking piece was used both easily fixable.  So what says the masses?  Is the MP5 market getting saturated  

Given pricing I would say no.  You can list the makers/companies that build them in bulk on one hand.

Gunsmiths that do one off as you order builds don't count.

Depends what we are counting.

Hk smiths that build-to-order dont qualify in my book.

Saturated-No
Getting competitive- Yes and is a good thing
I wish more would come out in 10mm

I think the market is possibly near capacity at its current price point. Every new entry into the market in the past few years seems to come in at more or less the same price window, offering more or less the same guns with the same (or very similar) features. Zenith was sort of the last big splash in the market due to their novelty of pushpin lowers and the generous accessories kit they came with new. If message board comments are to be believed, the next big wave will be whoever has the vast sums of capital and patience to undercut the existing price trends and bring out a bargain basement clone. That will probably reinvigorate the market for another stretch.

As to the OP's situation I also believe the MP5 clone market has a very pervasive deep seeded vein of haughtiness about it. There is still a lot of leftover Bailey hate as well as a lot of snobbery for the provenance of certain clones. Some of this is well founded and some of this is just people parroting what they've heard other people say. You could have a clone that runs 100% but since it has a Special Weapons receiver (or any of the other older Bailey brands) it is instantly seen as compromised or "damaged goods" in the face of the newer clones. And as time goes on I see more and more folks with new clones compared to the older clones, so those of us who "survived" the Bailey years and had actual personal experience parts swapping and head scratching to sort our clones out are a dwindling number... but the stories and prejudices continue. Kind of like that apocryphal story about the 5 monkeys psychological experiment.

Wandering comment short: I think the current market is crowded at its current price point, and I think the currently crowded market full of new better quality clones combined with pervasive brand prejudice directly impacts the secondary used market.

Waiting till EOY for Palmetto.

It’s tough for me to decide.  We’ve added some makers, but we’ve also lost a few.  Dave Getz, for instance, built my clones and was pretty established as a  great smith before the zeniths or any of the new offerings were on the horizon.  Dave retired and isn’t building anymore.  Gerard Miller did conversions and he’s gone.

I think the more builders we have come in, the higher-quality offerings we’ll see, as well as more competitive pricing.  I think the observation regarding a stigma regarding clones is an accurate one and still hangs over the industry.  I think that will start to go away as some of the newer companies continue to produce quality, functioning guns.  I think if PSA fucks theirs up, it will have a negative impact on the perception of the clone market and set back progress made.  It’s critical they get it right, IMO.

As far as clones themselves, as long as they run, they’re fine by me.  There is a degree of snobbery regarding having authentic HK94 or SP89 conversions (and don’t get me wrong, I aspire to one some day), but I will say that function is all that really matters to me.  I have a sear pack and so far, I haven’t run into any issues with clones running with it.

I’m summary, it’s approaching saturation if there’s no room for prices to move down or quality to improve further.

It is saturated at the boutique price point...which is why I think PTR has thoroughly mis-evaluated the market with their pricing.

If PSA can bring a decent product to market below $1,000, that opens up the market to a whole new slew of consumers.

Joe @ Dakota Tactical recently said that it's the parts manufactures that are making all the money right now. There's a handful of US companies that make all the parts and until someone else comes in and starts making the parts, not assembling the guns from the parts, at a lower cost, the prices aren't going to drop on the premium options.

Maybe PTR can do that? Maybe PSA can?

Well, with all due respect to Joe, have him explain why his guns cost thousands more than Zenith or other average units then.  If the parts companies are the ones making all the money and everyone is using the same parts, then DT’s cost to manufacture is that much higher than everyone else’s?

I don’t mean to pick on them, because I think they make absolutely stunning guns and I’m dying to get my hands on a D53 when they do another run.  But that parts excuse is a load of nonsense.  DT must be making a fortune on their guns if all the parts are the same and the cost to manufacture is close.

Yeah back in the day the only Mp5's were made by HK out of Germany. Then they were banned. Then they were tough to come by. Then the first america clone company called Special Weapons started making them here for us at much cheaper prices. Then they changed their name a few times, Bobcat Arms, Coharie Arms, and so forth. Now we have tons of Mp5 makers. Hell a few more just entered the market this year. The Mp5 40/10 are still somewhat rare. But Omega has come out with affordable versions recently. Hell they even come out with SD versions for sale which is mighty tempting. I'm going to need to buy a 10mm and SD soon...

No dog in this fight but from following Joe on FB for a while this is what I understand.

Zenith, MKE, makes their own parts. I'm sure Zenith is raking us over the coals on the price. Dakota uses the best of the best parts including B&T barrels, HK Ambi lowers, B&T stocks and their own handguard. Just the handguard, lower and the stock is over $1000.00 in upgrades. The B&T barrels run 450.00 vs 140.00 for a standard barrel. Joe says he doesn't build to a price point, he finds the best parts he can finds and spends as much time as necessary to make the best gun he can. That's not cheap. On top of that his volume is much lower than MKE which also factors into the price.

Personally I own an MKE, I couldn't justify at DT but I wish I had the cash.

Ambi lowers are 400, BT folding stock is 280 and there handguard im sure cost less then 100. Dakota guns are beautiful but he’s making a killing on the build, his prices don’t reflect parts cost.

Not even trying to argue- but where are you seeing Ambi lowers for $400?! That's a killer price.

$389 on HKparts

He's probably quoting the HKParts $390 hybrid lowers. They are ambi semi lowers, but they are not entirely german parts. They are a really good deal if you want a good ambi lower though that is already C&P or tabbed for a Zenith gun.

That’s it, I run one in one of my clones and have no complaints.

Probably because Zenith/MKE parts are made by a massive Turkish government arsenal while the small builders like Dakota and TPM have to buy their parts from the small, expensive US manufacturers.

Yeah, I was hoping for 100% German. US Ambi- yeah thats a $400 trigger.

I’ve said before on threads, it’s going to be good competition and should lower the prices on all lines.

I’m sure everyone is making a healthy profit and they should, especially if they make a quality product that runs or is in spec.

The reason ATI dropped MKE is they couldn’t make it make sense, MKE wanted more money for their guns and the burden wasn’t worth the reward... it was sad as during that time they sold everything they imported and were always backordered excluding 94 rifles with silly blocks.

It was a sad day when they stopped bringing them in, but I’m sure the US guys loved it. I personally don’t get the fascination of the high end builds espeically when your not using a HK receiver or atleast a MKE but who am I to judge... I go crazy for maxim parts.

We’ll see in 6 months to a year about the MP5 market, there is lots of buzz and lots of people have drooled over them who do not own. From PTRs point of view if the comp is getting X amount of dollars for a similar product why should they sell for less... especially since they probably have a better brand recognition from you non followers.

Now factor in this soft gun market, frugal buyers and some basic sales 101 it’s going to be interesting...

Yup. Pistol cal carbines are hot, the MP5 has always been pure sex, but at $2k+, not a lot of buyers...

Unfortunately, I've had the opportunity to spend quality and quantity time with a genuine HK MP5 and a LOT of ammo. Kind of ruined me for anything less than select fire. Probably just as well.

yeah, prices and quality will drop and you will end up with people saying MP5s are crap and don't run worth a crap...

I have a Toad gun SBR'd so I was planning to keep it forever.  Runs great after a couple parts swapped.

It doesn't have to be HK to be select fire. If you have a rich/SOT friend, they can even drop their sear pack into your gun temporarily.

I'd say the basic 9mm full size is getting saturated. Need more 53 builders, and beltfed builders.
I have builds from a significant variety of one man shops and large manufacturers. None have let me down and all run well with sear packs. Curious to see how the 10mm omegas are gonna roll.
I do miss Dave Getz and gerard miller. Dave's price points were down right a steal for the quality and fine-tuning he applied to his firearms. He really made the first affordable SD clone that ran great, mine works with both a fake can and a RCM can no issues. Absolutely one of my favorites period. He was working on a 53 clone pistol that used black dog 22 mags so that we could have a dedicated 22 clone that would take a sear and affordable mags. Unfortunately that project never got far due to his retirement. THat would have been a winner imo for all the sear owners, and if anyone can still pull that off there's a good (but niche) market there.

Clone sales may go up when manufacturers actually get decent braces on the market.

I just got a POF in the EE only to find the folder SB Tactical braces are discontinued.  Several folks displaying A3 style braces at Shot, none actually available yet.

My POF will be braceless for a while, it seems.  I wouldn't have bought it had I known good looking braces were unobtainium right now.

Here you go:

https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Side-Folding-Pistol-Brace-MP5-MP5-RS-Z5-RS-83p18017.htm

These things are built like old comblock stuff. it's not easy in today's world.  Requires old world skill sets and old world machinery.  Nothing is cheap about making these things today.  When companies try to modernize production on a large scale it goes to shit.

I thought they where not discontinued but being replaced with Aluminum ones?