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Posted: 11/3/2017 12:33:38 PM EDT
[#1]
3 year old thread on this subject.
It looks like a manufacturer suggested to not use steel cased ammunition in their rifles. |
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Posted: 11/3/2017 12:51:11 PM EDT
[#2]
FALs are no different than other rifles. Many have generous headspacing, dremeled chamber mouths, and that, combined with crappy steel cases, can be dangerous.
I've fired thousands of rounds of steel through FALs. Now others will come along telling you that steel is bad for FALs... |
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Posted: 11/3/2017 2:35:15 PM EDT
[#3]
I was just concerned because I hear it about FALs more. I was thinking it could a design flaw.
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Posted: 11/4/2017 8:45:28 AM EDT
[#4]
Even though I generally shoot DAG through my FAL, I have also run a bunch of Brown Bear through it with no issues.
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Posted: 11/4/2017 10:20:57 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a design flaw. |
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Posted: 11/4/2017 9:00:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Mine love steel ammo. I have read the same thing about steel ammo but I do not believe it has any real credibility. Likely one guy with a kaboom who happened to be using a bad steel round.
The rear of the FAL chamber does leave the casing unsupported the last 1/4'' or so. No more than most chambers. Steel or brass should not really make any difference IMO. A kaboom would be from a bad round, not the rifles fault. |
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Posted: 11/4/2017 11:27:09 PM EDT
[#7]
I see no reason to not shoot steel ammo in your FAL, shouldn't be an issue. I've shot thousands of rounds of steel ammo and i don't have any complaints.
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Posted: 11/5/2017 9:55:34 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No such thing with an F A L. The FAL chamber has a design flaw, at least with the steel cased ammo. When I had a case head separation, I 1st checked head space. Was loose, but still within spec. Next I actually started looking at the rifle. When you insert a case into the barrel (mine was a STG kit w/ factory barrel) there is a small portion of the case that is not supported. That's where my case head separation occurred. I stopped using steel case after that. Ihad shot about 2k in it before that happened though. Lots of people blamed the ammo, but when all the other semi .308 rifles can shoot steel cased and not blow up like the FAL does, makes one wonder. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 4:41:35 PM EDT
[#9]
The problem with steel-cased ammo is not the material; it's the quality. Most steel-cased ammo is borderline crap. In an AK with a highly-tapered case, it's usually not an issue. In 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, with their straight case walls, the issue is magnified.
FAL's are not known for treating cases in the gentlest manner, either. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 4:45:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I do not agree. I love the FAL but.... The FAL chamber has a design flaw, at least with the steel cased ammo. When I had a case head separation, I 1st checked head space. Was loose, but still within spec. Next I actually started looking at the rifle. When you insert a case into the barrel (mine was a STG kit w/ factory barrel) there is a small portion of the case that is not supported. That's where my case head separation occurred. I stopped using steel case after that. Ihad shot about 2k in it before that happened though. Lots of people blamed the ammo, but when all the other semi .308 rifles can shoot steel cased and not blow up like the FAL does, makes one wonder. I'd wager that there are as many FALs out there than the rest of the .308/7.62 NATO service rifles combined. If there was a problem with the design, one would think that we would hear about it from various sources, and yet we do not. |
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Posted: 11/6/2017 6:09:35 PM EDT
[#11]
I prefer brass on all my firearms but Ive used steel cased ammo without issue.
I also think people in 3rd world countries that have been using the FAL daily in the last 50 or so years dont really care about brass vs steel 
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Posted: 11/6/2017 10:27:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Still deciding between an FAL and Galil ACE but it seems like steel is okay in thr FAL.
it got me thinking becuase it is used in third world conflicts all the time and god knows how much steel case got fired. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 8:52:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All five of my FAL's, my brother's, and the two I owned in the past have the same amount (or more) of chamber support than an M1A, my G3, or an AR-10-pattern rifle. Sounds like someone may have messed with your rifle or the ramp portion of the barrel is out-of-spec. What ammo was used? I'd wager that there are as many FALs out there than the rest of the .308/7.62 NATO service rifles combined. If there was a problem with the design, one would think that we would hear about it from various sources, and yet we do not. Also, if you were to talk about this on the files, you'd think there was an epidemic of steel cased ammo exploding guns everywhere. Like I said though, it's only the FAL guys that seem to have the issue. I asked myself why, and think I found the reason. You guys can shoot steel all you want, I did until I had an issue. Most may never have this problem, but I'd check head space somewhat frequently if you have the ramp cut in the barrel. Just my opinion. BTW, in my experience, the TULA was the better. Shot the best out of my FAL whn I used it. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 5:46:12 PM EDT
[#14]
For the price of PMC, Prvi, or Lithuanian surplus- all of which have excellent brass- I see no reason to mess with steel-cased .308. Except when I need to replenish my brass stocks, I reload all of mine anyway.
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Posted: 11/7/2017 5:48:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the price of PMC, Prvi, or Lithuanian surplus- all of which have excellent brass- I see no reason to mess with steel-cased .308. Except when I need to replenish my brass stocks, I reload all of mine anyway. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 8:26:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still deciding between an FAL and Galil ACE but it seems like steel is okay in thr FAL. it got me thinking becuase it is used in third world conflicts all the time and god knows how much steel case got fired. |
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Posted: 11/7/2017 9:52:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the price of PMC, Prvi, or Lithuanian surplus- all of which have excellent brass- I see no reason to mess with steel-cased .308. Except when I need to replenish my brass stocks, I reload all of mine anyway. |
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Posted: 11/8/2017 3:11:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I prefer brass but sometimes I'm visiting a friend and all of sudden want to go shooting and all I brought was my ccw and rifle with 3 mags. Never know if the only fmj in the store is steel. |
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Posted: 11/8/2017 5:03:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I do not agree. I love the FAL but.... The FAL chamber has a design flaw, at least with the steel cased ammo. When I had a case head separation, I 1st checked head space. Was loose, but still within spec. Next I actually started looking at the rifle. When you insert a case into the barrel (mine was a STG kit w/ factory barrel) there is a small portion of the case that is not supported. That's where my case head separation occurred. I stopped using steel case after that. Ihad shot about 2k in it before that happened though. Lots of people blamed the ammo, but when all the other semi .308 rifles can shoot steel cased and not blow up like the FAL does, makes one wonder. |
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Posted: 11/9/2017 8:38:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something's wrong with your rifle. I built that rifle, just like I built the 12 before it and 3 more after it. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the FAL, however, every one of my FALs has been either an numbers matching STG kit, G1, or in the case of my last build an Argentinian. All have factory barrels, all were properly head spaced, and all are still in good working order. That's my resume. So, I'm going to stick to my guns here and say, the FAL and steel cased ammo is not a great idea. If you can take what they say at the Files, vs my experience, you can notice a trend. It doesn't apply to HK or PTRs, AR, or any other .308 semi autos out there. You only hear stories of the FALs exploding with steel cased ammo. Shooting has always been a sport with a certain level of danger involved. I did my research, looked my rifles over, found the flaw, and made a choice. You can go ahead and do you, and I'll do me. |
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Posted: 11/9/2017 3:35:08 PM EDT
[#21]
You keep ostracizing the folks on the FAL Files, but they weren't wrong: It's long been known that steel cased ammo is problematic at best, and yet people keep buying it because of the attractive price (priced that way for a reason). AR-10's have been known to have problems, as well. This is nothing new. If your rifle(s) is/are working with brass, then you have your answer.
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Posted: 11/10/2017 4:51:32 PM EDT
[#22]
I scored a FAL once because the owner shot steel case in it, locked the bolt up and snapped the charging handle off trying to unlock it. He didn’t want it after that...
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Posted: 11/10/2017 6:15:50 PM EDT
[#23]
I shoot steel with no issues.
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Posted: 11/11/2017 11:16:48 AM EDT
[#24]
It might be ok, it might not.
A few FALs have been KB'ed using steel ammo from what I've read. Why risk an expensive rifle by using cheap ammo of questionable quality? I only feed mine brass cased ammo. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 8:27:31 PM EDT
[#25]
From what I can tell, steel cased ammo is just fine in an FAL...until it isn't. The problem is you never know where that line is. I run all brass.
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Posted: 11/16/2017 5:48:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I ran one 20rd box of Tula through my rebuilt century FAL. I had 2 case ruptures within the first 12, second one blew my Moses Mag apart. I've never ran any since. PMC and federal white box aren't much more than Tula where I'm at.... I'll stick to brass-cased.
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Posted: 11/16/2017 6:07:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you know, it's really interesting to see the difference of opinion from here to the Files. You mention steel cased ammo over there and you're ostracized. Here' you say how in your experience it can be problematic in the rifle and you're told your shit is fucked up. I built that rifle, just like I built the 12 before it and 3 more after it. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the FAL, however, every one of my FALs has been either an numbers matching STG kit, G1, or in the case of my last build an Argentinian. All have factory barrels, all were properly head spaced, and all are still in good working order. That's my resume. So, I'm going to stick to my guns here and say, the FAL and steel cased ammo is not a great idea. If you can take what they say at the Files, vs my experience, you can notice a trend. It doesn't apply to HK or PTRs, AR, or any other .308 semi autos out there. You only hear stories of the FALs exploding with steel cased ammo. Shooting has always been a sport with a certain level of danger involved. I did my research, looked my rifles over, found the flaw, and made a choice. You can go ahead and do you, and I'll do me. Even numbers matching matching kits may have had the chambers wallowed out to in the past by some hack, worn extractor cuts that compromise the chamber , etc. There is nothing with the FAL design or properly made steel. I've also been on falfiles forever too. A lot of misinformation there too. |
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Posted: 11/16/2017 6:17:40 PM EDT
[#28]
I don't shoot FALs or steel 308 so take this for what it is worth-when I first found arfcom we were regaled with tales of how awful russian steel ammo was and I would not buy it for ages. But then I tried some and had no problems. I have shot mountains of 9mm and 223 russian steel cased ammo.
I was at a class maybe ten years ago and one of the assistant instructors said "And of course you should not trust wolf for this class" and you could hear the students quietly laughing at him. He did ask "What's up" and finally someone told him that nearly all of us had been shooting tons of wolf for years. |
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Posted: 11/18/2017 12:22:58 AM EDT
[#29]
The only steel case ammo I won't use is Tulammo.
Earlier this year, I did have a case head separation with that ammo in my Postban Argentine FAL.(ammo supplied by my friend) It was probably the 3rd or 4th round that kaboom'ed. I also notice the current Tulammo polycoated 308, unlike earlier versions of the same ammo that I've experienced, seems to be overpressured as it was recoiling hard. No harm to the rifle, and no one was injured, though the magazine was trashed. After that, I then continue on shooting current production Wolf 308 polycoated ammo and brass surplus ammo through it with no problem. So far, I have 300rds of Wolf 308 ammo through the Argentine with no problem. I also tried 150rds of Wolf 308 in my Stg58 with no problem. To me, from my limited experience, it seems like it is Tulammo that is the problem, not just any steel case ammo. |
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Posted: 11/18/2017 1:23:09 AM EDT
[#30]
I won't even shoot Tula in my bolt-action rifles. I don't consider it safe to use. Almost as bad as a batch of POF ammo that I had that was in poor condition.
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Posted: 11/21/2017 8:50:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Tula was what I was using when I had a case head separation too. Maybe Tula is to blame then.
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Posted: 11/22/2017 9:09:10 AM EDT
[#32]
I bought some of the Wolf Military Classic to try out through my FALs. Works with no problems.
Bought it to try as a just in case ammo. |
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Posted: 11/28/2017 4:06:26 AM EDT
[#33]
I shot one round of steel case through my DSA FAL this summer. Gas hit me in the face and all the remaining rounds along with the follower and spring blew out the bottom of the magazine. The rifle appeared unharmed. Since then, I only shoot brass through it and I don't have any issues. Kinda reluctant to try steel case in it again.
Not sure on the brand, but I believe it was Tula. |
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Posted: 11/28/2017 4:08:58 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only steel case ammo I won't use is Tulammo. Earlier this year, I did have a case head separation with that ammo in my Postban Argentine FAL.(ammo supplied by my friend) It was probably the 3rd or 4th round that kaboom'ed. I also notice the current Tulammo polycoated 308, unlike earlier versions of the same ammo that I've experienced, seems to be overpressured as it was recoiling hard. No harm to the rifle, and no one was injured, though the magazine was trashed. After that, I then continue on shooting current production Wolf 308 polycoated ammo and brass surplus ammo through it with no problem. So far, I have 300rds of Wolf 308 ammo through the Argentine with no problem. I also tried 150rds of Wolf 308 in my Stg58 with no problem. To me, from my limited experience, it seems like it is Tulammo that is the problem, not just any steel case ammo. |
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Posted: 11/30/2017 1:37:06 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm wondering why steel case ammo would cause a problem.
FAMAS F1 had to use steel case ammo, since it was delayed blowback and opened too early for brass. Steel cases provide more support. If it is a case of simply being crap Russian ammo, I suppose. FAL with its tilting bolt with rear locking shoulder isn't going to handle over pressure as well as some others. |
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Posted: 11/30/2017 5:24:47 PM EDT
[#36]
It comes down to nothing more than the quality of the ammunition: The French are not known for producing low-quality ammo, and the Germans used millions of rounds of steel-cased ammo in WW2, both with no ill effect. With the Russian ammo, I've never had a problem with 7.62x39mm Tula or any other brand, but I've had more than few problems with 5.56 in various rifles. I'm thinking they cheaped out on the steel quality, and the powder burn rate seemed to be off. Those are my guesses.
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Posted: 12/1/2017 6:47:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm wondering why steel case ammo would cause a problem. FAMAS F1 had to use steel case ammo, since it was delayed blowback and opened too early for brass. Steel cases provide more support. If it is a case of simply being crap Russian ammo, I suppose. FAL with its tilting bolt with rear locking shoulder isn't going to handle over pressure as well as some others. With Tula, I've anything from squibs to primers nearly popping out and other signs of excessive pressures. I've gotten a couple of duds and it is really inconsistent. Again, like shooting POF .303 Brit ammo that is visibly in bad shape. Tula is inexpensive, but it's garbage. Pure blasting ammo, if you're willing to take the chance. Wolf, on the other hand, has given me no issues and is competitive with surplus ammo in terms of group size. Before I ever read anything about steel cased ammo and the FAL I ran a case of the stuff through my first FAL with no issues. |
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Posted: 12/1/2017 9:50:51 PM EDT
[#38]
If and unsupported case is such a problem in the FAL, why isn't it a problem with the HK or the PTR that has fully fluted chambers with unsupported areas all over the case?
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Posted: 12/2/2017 9:58:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If and unsupported case is such a problem in the FAL, why isn't it a problem with the HK or the PTR that has fully fluted chambers with unsupported areas all over the case? Forrest |
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Posted: 12/3/2017 5:41:08 PM EDT
[#40]
I picked up a Imbel L1a1 for a customer of mine. Kid just out of high school and I told him I would keep an eye u for one.
Just your basic FrankenFAL. Metric receiver. In real good shape. He had a bunch of steel case wolf and it would not function with it. But OK with brass. He brought it back to me to see if I could work some magic on it. Took gas system apart and cleaned. And polished chamber. I did take it out and test fired it before messing with it just so I know what it was doing. After assembling and oiling took back to range and did get it to function with gas port open. But was rough shooting each time. I came back and told him to shoot brass only. At least it will run steel but he has plenty of brass cased ammo. And he has another gun to shoot steal case through. So he was fine with that. I would have taken more time with it but he wanted it back...I think it just depends n the gun. I will shoot anything through mine... |
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Posted: 1/5/2018 10:18:44 AM EDT
[#41]
Both of my FALs eat steel cased ammo like a fat kid eats candy.
Your milage may vary. |
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Posted: 1/5/2018 6:11:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both of my FALs eat steel cased ammo like a fat kid eats candy. Your milage may vary. |
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Posted: 1/5/2018 6:20:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All five of my FAL's, my brother's, and the two I owned in the past have the same amount (or more) of chamber support than an M1A, my G3, or an AR-10-pattern rifle. Sounds like someone may have messed with your rifle or the ramp portion of the barrel is out-of-spec. What ammo was used? I'd wager that there are as many FALs out there than the rest of the .308/7.62 NATO service rifles combined. If there was a problem with the design, one would think that we would hear about it from various sources, and yet we do not. Hard to find the numbers but Wikipedia has FALs at 2,000,000+ and G3s at 7,000,000 and M14s at 1.3 million.... |
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Posted: 1/8/2018 7:30:12 AM EDT
[#44]
Maybe unknown chamber headspace+unknown cartridge headspace+iffy steel case ammunition = case head separation.
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Posted: 1/8/2018 3:58:43 PM EDT
[#45]
I have a Mixmaster Rhodie that shoots steel case really well. I mainly use silver bear but have also used Tula/wolf. Seems more accurate with steel than brass honestly. The barrel is pretty worn on it.
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Posted: 1/9/2018 10:06:30 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What brand(s) of ammo? They did not like Silver Bear 140gr JSP but that was due to the nose profile of the bullet being quite short and blunt. |
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Posted: 1/9/2018 3:45:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you would loose that wager badly... Hard to find the numbers but Wikipedia has FALs at 2,000,000+ and G3s at 7,000,000 and M14s at 1.3 million.... |
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Posted: 1/9/2018 6:13:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good call on the G3. I think the FAL production number is way low, though. Maybe that number refers to FN production only.. |
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Posted: 1/10/2018 8:38:29 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since it has been in service with 90+ countries it seems low to me as well. Maybe that number refers to FN production only.. |
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Posted: 1/27/2018 4:52:39 PM EDT
[#50]
If you follow any of the FAL groups on Facebook or listen to Mark Graham of Arizona Response Systems, then you will quickly find out that the issue is not with just steel cased ammo. More specifically, the issue is with TULAMMO .308. I personally had TULAMMO KB on the second round in my FAL. Blew the bottom out of my magazine. Rifle was a new build that headspaced perfectly before and after the KB.
I have fired near 1000 rounds of steel cased Wolf and over 1000 rounds of various brass cased ammo through my rifle with no issues. Second round of TULAMMO was a KB. Bottom line is, most steel or brass cased ammo is fine. TULAMMO is NOT OK. |
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