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Posted: 3/4/2018 5:25:48 PM EDT
[#1]
The level V bomb tech suits are heavy.
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Posted: 3/4/2018 6:35:33 PM EDT
[#2]
They don't exist. Maybe there are some other rifle resistant prototypes in labs somewhere but that's it.
Aside from the US Army's ECH helmet anyway which is a polyethylene helmet. Supposed to stop some rifle rounds but I've never found the actual specs for it anywhere. BFD is probably severe. If you had to compare it to an NIJ rating it would be around level III. |
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Posted: 3/5/2018 12:44:07 AM EDT
[#3]
There are a few helmets like the ECH that are rated to stop a .308 @ 2100 FPS, or a 7.62x39 simulation round at I Don't remember the velocity with acceptable BFD. That's considerably below level III standards. There may be one or two guys who were shot in the head with a M2AP round and lived, but I would say it's pretty freaking rare if it ever happened.
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Posted: 3/5/2018 1:40:27 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are a few helmets like the ECH that are rated to stop a .308 @ 2100 FPS, or a 7.62x39 simulation round at I Don't remember the velocity with acceptable BFD. That's considerably below level III standards. There may be one or two guys who were shot in the head with a M2AP round and lived, but I would say it's pretty freaking rare if it ever happened. ETA: I see what you're saying, I think. Pretty sure we're on the same page now. The ".308" is supposed to be a 7.62x39 round which would make a whole lotta sense. |
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Posted: 3/5/2018 11:02:16 PM EDT
[#5]
About ten years ago I stopped by Patriot Performance Materials when they were in business and on a shelf was what appeared to be a ceramic ACH shell. It was about 3/8 inch thick and heavy as hell. It was in it raw uncovered ceramic state.
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Posted: 3/6/2018 3:35:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
About ten years ago I stopped by Patriot Performance Materials when they were in business and on a shelf was what appeared to be a ceramic ACH shell. It was about 3/8 inch thick and heavy as hell. It was in it raw uncovered ceramic state. |
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Posted: 3/6/2018 5:08:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Army standard is 3lbs. Was that more? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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About ten years ago I stopped by Patriot Performance Materials when they were in business and on a shelf was what appeared to be a ceramic ACH shell. It was about 3/8 inch thick and heavy as hell. It was in it raw uncovered ceramic state. On top of all that it'd be a real bitch to make with current manufacturing capabilities. It can be done obviously but I sincerely doubt a monolithic ceramic helmet could be pumped out in any meaningful numbers currently. Plus the price would probably be through the roof, I'd guess double the cost at a minimum of the current decked out top tier helmet. Probably closer to 2.5x or 3x more. |
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Posted: 3/9/2018 11:16:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Russian K6-3, or ALTYN helmet, can, according to the Russkies, stop a 7.62x39 from 300m.
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Posted: 3/9/2018 11:57:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Russian K6-3, or ALTYN helmet, can, according to the Russkies, stop a 7.62x39 from 300m. Hell, the ECH might suck too. We just don't know yet. Not enough data out there, hasn't seen enough combat. ETA: Or info on the "real world" effectiveness ECH is out there and it's being suppressed. I've had a sinking feeling for while it'll turn out to be a boondoggle. Time will tell. |
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Posted: 3/10/2018 11:40:03 AM EDT
[#10]
A level IV helmet would be possible if you were willing to wear an 8 lb helmet. Some nods, counterweight, ear pro, rails, and strobe and you could have a 12 pound helmet. Sounds nice.
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Posted: 3/10/2018 4:11:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A level IV helmet would be possible if you were willing to wear an 8 lb helmet. Some nods, counterweight, ear pro, rails, and strobe and you could have a 12 pound helmet. Sounds nice. |
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Posted: 3/10/2018 4:41:43 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I was thinking. I bitch about the 3lb one I have Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A level IV helmet would be possible if you were willing to wear an 8 lb helmet. Some nods, counterweight, ear pro, rails, and strobe and you could have a 12 pound helmet. Sounds nice. |
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Posted: 3/10/2018 10:18:45 PM EDT
[#13]
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What pads and suspension? I wear a large ACH, don't really mind it at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A level IV helmet would be possible if you were willing to wear an 8 lb helmet. Some nods, counterweight, ear pro, rails, and strobe and you could have a 12 pound helmet. Sounds nice. |
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Posted: 3/10/2018 11:22:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have an xl helmet with 4d pads and it's still too tight on my head. I got a big head Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A level IV helmet would be possible if you were willing to wear an 8 lb helmet. Some nods, counterweight, ear pro, rails, and strobe and you could have a 12 pound helmet. Sounds nice. 
Hmm. I'm guessing you tried different pad setups? Meaning moving the pads around and/or removing/adding pads to try to adjust the fit? |
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Posted: 3/11/2018 10:46:41 PM EDT
[#15]
@1911xdm
Something I remembered, there are half inch pads out there. You could try getting a set of those and putting the half inch pads on pressure spots. Revision makes a half inch pad set. Not sure who else does but there's a couple out there. The downside is they obviously offer less impact resistance. Half inch pads aren't approved for use in the US military. But it's an option. |
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Posted: 3/24/2018 3:27:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Closest I have seen. |
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Posted: 3/25/2018 11:16:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Basically the equivalent of our ECH, except theirs probably sucks hard. Hell, the ECH might suck too. We just don't know yet. Not enough data out there, hasn't seen enough combat. ETA: Or info on the "real world" effectiveness ECH is out there and it's being suppressed. I've had a sinking feeling for while it'll turn out to be a boondoggle. Time will tell. |
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Posted: 3/25/2018 11:33:14 AM EDT
[#18]
The cost to make a lightweight Level IV helmet would be absolutely astronomical.
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Posted: 3/28/2018 12:30:27 AM EDT
[#19]
You could put on whatever kind of helmet, ceramic, steel, etc, but if you get hit in the head with something that has the force of a sledge hammer blow, your skull is probably going to be fractured in several pieces anyway.
I don't think there is enough room inside a helmet to have any kind of suspension system that could distribute the energy over a large enough area to make your head take that amount of force without a serious skull fracture and deformation. 3000 ft-lbs of energy would scramble your brain even if it stays inside your melon. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 4:25:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could put on whatever kind of helmet, ceramic, steel, etc, but if you get hit in the head with something that has the force of a sledge hammer blow, your skull is probably going to be fractured in several pieces anyway. I don't think there is enough room inside a helmet to have any kind of suspension system that could distribute the energy over a large enough area to make your head take that amount of force without a serious skull fracture and deformation. 3000 ft-lbs of energy would scramble your brain even if it stays inside your melon. Though I disagree with them. They didn't upgrade the pad system over the ACH and a 100% polyethylene helmet is a terrible idea due to excessive BFD. I'm entirely unconvinced of their efficacy. Time will tell though. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 8:16:21 PM EDT
[#21]
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The Army and their ECH helmet disagrees with you. So does 3M with their L110 helmet, though I think that's just a commercial version of the ECH. Though I disagree with them. They didn't upgrade the pad system over the ACH and a 100% polyethylene helmet is a terrible idea due to excessive BFD. I'm entirely unconvinced of their efficacy. Time will tell though. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 11:18:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its rated for Level IV? 30-06 AP ammo? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Army and their ECH helmet disagrees with you. So does 3M with their L110 helmet, though I think that's just a commercial version of the ECH. Though I disagree with them. They didn't upgrade the pad system over the ACH and a 100% polyethylene helmet is a terrible idea due to excessive BFD. I'm entirely unconvinced of their efficacy. Time will tell though. Basically, it should save your head at a distance or if the round is fired from a shorter barrel but if someone's up close and slugs your head with that round you're probably a dead man. I'm assuming the specs on the ECH are about the same, but they haven't been published to date so I have no way to verify the ECH specs. |
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Posted: 3/29/2018 12:04:45 AM EDT
[#23]
With respect to the ECH, y'all might be interested in this case report: http://docdro.id/r0MbQm4
Lots of good info with respect to its capabilities, development process, helmet BFD in general, and so forth... Anecdotally, I know that some foreign military/security forces have purchased an ECH-type helmet -- the Armorsource AS-600, which is basically identical to the 3M helmet -- and they're all unhappy with it. The consensus seems to be that it's too thick and heavy for the really lackluster amount of rifle protection it offers. |
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Posted: 3/29/2018 3:18:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With respect to the ECH, y'all might be interested in this case report: http://docdro.id/r0MbQm4 Lots of good info with respect to its capabilities, development process, helmet BFD in general, and so forth... Anecdotally, I know that some foreign military/security forces have purchased an ECH-type helmet -- the Armorsource AS-600, which is basically identical to the 3M helmet -- and they're all unhappy with it. The consensus seems to be that it's too thick and heavy for the really lackluster amount of rifle protection it offers. Haven't had the time to read that report in depth yet but I saw that they didn't set a BFD requirement for rifle projectiles?  It sounds like because it wouldn't pass any reasonable requirement they just removed it all together.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:25:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very interesting, thank you. Haven't had the time to read that report in depth yet but I saw that they didn't set a BFD requirement for rifle projectiles? It sounds like because it wouldn't pass any reasonable requirement they just removed it all together. The paper also notes, particularly in figure three, that there was no record of serious injuries due to helmet behind-armor trauma. Helmet perforations, on the other hand, resulted in a staggeringly high, but of course not surprising, fatality rate. On balance, perforation resistance is much more important than deformation resistance. When helmet BFD requirements are too strict, as they are in certain European countries, helmets become optimized for deformation resistance as opposed to perforation resistance, which is how you end up with 5-pound Level IIIa helmets that cost $2500 and have a frag V50 that's actually worse than a 2.5-pound Ops Core helmet. (http://www.ulbrichts.com/protection/en/products/) Strict BFD requirements incentivize the wrong things. Which is all simply to say, again, that we shouldn't make the perfect the enemy of the good. We should do the best we can with the tech we've got -- not strive for something completely unattainable or simply unrealistic. So I don't think that the lack of a BFD requirement is a bad thing, necessarily. I think that it reflects a certain pragmatism. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 12:19:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could put on whatever kind of helmet, ceramic, steel, etc, but if you get hit in the head with something that has the force of a sledge hammer blow, your skull is probably going to be fractured in several pieces anyway. I don't think there is enough room inside a helmet to have any kind of suspension system that could distribute the energy over a large enough area to make your head take that amount of force without a serious skull fracture and deformation. 3000 ft-lbs of energy would scramble your brain even if it stays inside your melon. |
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Posted: 4/7/2018 1:59:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could put on whatever kind of helmet, ceramic, steel, etc, but if you get hit in the head with something that has the force of a sledge hammer blow, your skull is probably going to be fractured in several pieces anyway. I don't think there is enough room inside a helmet to have any kind of suspension system that could distribute the energy over a large enough area to make your head take that amount of force without a serious skull fracture and deformation. 3000 ft-lbs of energy would scramble your brain even if it stays inside your melon. |
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Posted: 4/8/2018 2:40:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You do know that people have survived rifle hits to helmets before without your fabled "scrambled brains" right? I know two officers who have were hit with 9mm in the vest and had a bruise, and also know one who was hit with 12ga buck from 6 feet away. He suffered a bruised heart, a collapsed lung, several broken ribs and a fractured sternum. It didn't penetrate, but the force was still absorbed by his chest... |
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