Hey guys,

If I wanted to own a Denel NTW-20, how would I go about doing that?

I've heard others say that 68 gun control act made it illegal to import these types of weapons unless you are LEO/MIL. Is this true? Are there any legal ways around it?

Thank you.

Possible, but only if you got an FFL and paid your SOT at least one year, and acquired the DD during that active year. Post-68 imported NFA items are classified as "dealer samples" and can only be acquired by an active SOT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd have to obtain a type 11 FFL, then pay my SOT, and I can just contact Denel and have them ship it over to me? Say the FFL and SOT expire, do I have to do anything else or can I just own the gun forever?

Is it really that simple?

Cheers.

Please correct me if wrong, but postsamples have to be transferred out if you give up your SOT after one year.

Post-Sample is something that applies to MGs. You can still register a DD on a Form-1, can't you?

OP you would not have to get a Type 11 if you bought one from some other dealer who already had one in-country. For that, a simple 01FFL and C3 SOT would suffice. If you wanted to arrange for the import yourself, yes, you'd need the DD import FFL/SOT combo.

Jestertoo: "post-sample" only applies to machineguns. All other NFA can still be kept after giving up the license, if properly acquired as a sales sample. The OP's desired firearm is a bolt-action 20mm large-bore DD.

Thanks

How about some 20x82 ammo?

SA TP round, Swiss incendiary, German incendiary, Ger HE, Ger API

How about bringing it in without a barrel and than having a barrel made in the US for it?

Have Denel turn you a .22 barrel.
Import as a .22lr
"Yes officer, this is my new rimfire benchrest gun".

Is there a 922(r) equivalent for DD's?

You might want to try talking to them, first. If my experience is anything to go by, they will want nothing whatsoever to do with you, even as a type 11 FFL. They're really only interested in military and government orders.

Good luck.

Semi-auto. The bolt action you're thinking of is most likely the Truvelo CMS 20x42.

As much as I like to shoot the guns, I also enjoy collecting them. Unfortunately I would want all parts to be original. Wouldn't it be possible to ship the barrel separately?

Thanks again for the great information, it is unfortuante that the process has to be this difficult.

So probably by the end of the year I'm going to try to get this thing. Do you think that getting an FFL/SOT is the way to go? I also came across some website claiming to do an import service: Here

Any ideas on that? Do you reckon its worth talking to a lawyer before starting the process?

Do you mean Denel specifically? What was your experience like if you don't mind me asking?

Not sure why they'd be against the idea of somebody giving them money, as long as its legal I figure they'd have no issue with taking my money ;).

Like Circuits said, post-68 NFA imports are dealer samples. This is due to GCA 68. They may only be imported for official government use, however, once imported they may be transferred to any current SOT.

This means an importer of DDs (11/01) would have to import the weapon on Form 6 using a LE purchase order or demo letter to justify importation.

Once the official use is fulfilled, it can transfer to any current SOT, and the entity holding the FFL may retain it indefinitely, even after relinquishing the FFL/SOT.

I think a workaround would be that a FFL seller removes the barrel, sends a letter to ATF advising it has been permanently removed from the purview of the NFA, then transfers the Title I receiver to a buyer. This buyer could then Form 1 the gun into a DD again, acquire and attach the barrel.

Then you'd have it with no FFL/SOT, but with extra engraving required. There will be engraving added upon importation also.

The hard part is getting it imported in the first place.

No. As a non-sporting firearm, the barrel may not be imported for open sale, only as a post-1968 sales sample. This sometimes doesn't apply to barrels for firearms which are considered sporting, or for barrels never used in non-sporting firearms, but either of those avenues would be nearly impossible to argue on a 20mm cannon barrel.

Firearms importing is something that a few different companies do, however for intact firearms it includes only sporting firearms or firearms which are imported to a bonded warehouse prior to BATFE-approved destruction of the barrel and receiver.

Yes. After confirming that I was not purchasing as the brokering importer for a direct agency sale, the replies stopped entirely.

"Legal" is very slippery. Legal... for military and agency sales only. Legal to import... for direct sale to an agency, not for retention as a sample. Companies are exceptionally timid when it comes to doing anything that may bring down legal action due to ITAR - and the USA has the tightest, most convoluted regulations about trade in non-sporting arms.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, only temper your expectations. The best you may be able to do, at great expense, is to purchase an example in a different country and have it measured thoroughly, and subsequently duplicated inside of the USA as a one-off. You would also have to manufacture the ammunition down to cases/components and possibly powder, or have it manufactured.

Importing intact non-MG NFA items has been exceptionally difficult since 1968 with the passage of the GCA. Anything brought to the USA and intended to be sold intact must "be generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes."

The sporting purpose requirement isn't met by competition shooting, historical interest, or novelty of design. Basically, if it's NFA, it's not coming into the USA and making it out of the bonded warehouse intact, except for extremely narrow circumstances. Sales samples are one such category of exception for importers, but the selling company and exporting country may not be amenable.

You might be surprised.
(I have no experience with Denel whatsoever.)

Plenty of outfits prefer not to deal with you, even if the sale is (or could be) legal. This could be due to it being less convenient for them, unfamiliarity with paperwork or regulations, or they may just prefer to go bankrupt rather than increase sales. (Colt and HK are good examples. HK never filed for bankruptcy, but has been sold several times.)

I buy for a LE agency, and I too get the cold shoulder sometimes.

Good products and good business sense are not necessarily connected.

I don't want to rain on your 20mm parade. I hope it works out for you. First step would be to see if Denel has a US importer, or one they've dealt with before.

Would it be allowed to transfer to ANY SOT, or just those holding 09 SOT (DD). I know there are some grey areas around regular 03 SOT only being able to transfer 1 or two DD's every now and only  if there are no 09 DD SOT's nearby.

This.
ATF will usually let you transfer one DD per year without a DD license. This has been my experience as a 07/02. I've never been located near DD FFLs, so I'm not sure how that factors into their policy.

From pyotr_k and KitBuilder's input, it seems that what you want to do, while legal, will be quite difficult to actually accomplish. If you can't find one in-country that another dealer would be willing to sell you, then it will be nearly impossible to get an all-original into your hands.

On the plus side, if you were able to import a barrel-less receiver, and then have a barrel made for it and assemble it on a Form 1, you'd have a transferrable 20mm rifle instead of a keeper sales sample.

These guys know what they are talking about. Even getting them to return an email will be next to impossible. Hell, getting domestic companies that deal with DDs won't give you the time of day if you're not LE or Mil. Whole lot of "Not profeshnul enuf to have my uber awesome product"

The only person who seems to both deal in DD and Imports that seems approachable is TX MGO.

IIRC, that is only about doing it tax free. Again, IIRC any FFL can transfer a DD on a tax paid Form 4.  The only question is if ATF will let you do it on a Form 3 every once in  a while.

Thats what he was saying.
Anyone (individual or any ffl/sot etc) can do an F4 transfer. ATF will take your money. You don't want to flip too many or the ATF will want you to get an 09FFL

ATF *MIGHT* let your 02/03SOT do one DD transfer a year if there aren't any 09FFL's near you.

IIRC the NTW-20 has a 50BMG barrel option for "lower cost training". Could he import it with that attached and purchase the 20mm or 14.5mm barrels later?

It's possible. ATF would still have to approve the import for sporting purposes, based on their (FATD's) sporting points test for imports. If they haven't examined one before, they'd probably need an example shipped to them for evaluation.