Is A Max-/15 The Same As A M16 Registered Receiver - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is A Max-/15 The Same As A M16 Registered Receiver

Posted: 1/18/2023 8:56:18 AM EDT

This was posted on another thread:

Quoted:

You have an interesting opinion that is based on facts and assumptions.

Yes, a Max15 can do everything an M16 can. Every caliber you can feed an M16 can go through a Max15. It's quite literally an AR bolt and barrel in a different upper and carrier.

So far you are the only one who has brought up different feed methods in a thread that has been primarily about magazine fed MG options. Give it time and enough interest and Mr. Lage will probably have a belt fed upper for the Mac. I'd be surprised if there are not a few floating around. There are 12ga and 308 uppers for the M10 around. Can't do 308 from a magazine on the M16 and I've never seen a belt fed 308 upper for M16. I have seen essentially MG42 uppers for AR though. Probably would run on an M16.

Lage upper has disadvantages when it comes to quick caliber changes in the same upper but if I'm going to go between pistol calibers and rifle calibers I'll just bring my Max31 and Max15 out. 45ACP for the OE hose, Max31 with a 72rnd easy to load 9mm drum, and Max15 in 7.62x39 or 5.45 or 300blk or 6mm arc or 556 or 50beo! Maybe run a dolos system or similar and change out barrels quickly for those caliber changes you claim cannot happen! Might even be a decent way to do quick barrel changes to let barrels cool.

Pulling a Lage upper of any kind off is not difficult. If you can't figure it out you probably have no business even attempting to clean your own guns. Push a single pin and it's loose. With the Max15 you have the extra steps of insertion a magazine in the receiver magwell and pulling the bolt back to lock it in.

In all my time with MGs and MG guys and SOTs I've never had any one of them come out with a bag of uppers for their M16s so they could run different calibers at the range. Every one of them puts the upper they want on it then packs it up and heads out so quick caliber changes at the range seems to be pretty moot. Same sorry for the guys I personally know with Macs and Lage uppers.

In reality your opinion (and mine) is really moot when it comes down to what people want and can afford. Not everyone can afford $30k for an M16. A whole lot more people can afford $10k (1/3 the price) for an M10. Hell, I've got just over $10k I to my M10/45 with some 50+ mags, several Lage uppers (max 15 is $3200 by its self) and parts kits for spares. Hell, the cheapest M16 my LGS has ever sold was $16k which was the day before I bought my Mac.

Would I like an M16? Sure. $30k is the down payment on a rental property around here. Smarter decision for me than another toy. I'd also like an FG-42 but I'd have to sell someones else's kidneys for that!

As for the 22 conversions for Mac, I'm one of those working on them and I've been part of one of the other successful projects in one small little piece. Was pretty excited to see it work! I'm working on old VanVorhess stuff which I hope to add a couple to circulation and maybe come up with my own but that is waiting until I'm done with my belt fed project and another subgun project and some Reising stuff I'm working on in my free time. May also end up making DPM stuff for a local SOT.

View Quote

This discussion was not what the OP had asked. So instead of derailing someone else's thread, I thought I would move this discussion here.

As far as I am concerned, the Lage Max-/15 series is an excellent product, for what it is. But IMHO a Max-/15 is not the same as a M16. What does the community think? Is a Max-10/15 the same as a M16?

If they were the same, then I would think that they would have a similar market value. They don't. Why, because they don't have the same ergonomics and for that matter the same functionality. They are both based on the same barrel and bolt, but the M16 is closed bolt. The Lage Max-/15 is open bolt. First round accuracy will tend to be much better with a closed bolt system as the trigger only releases the hammer. So at the time of firing a very small amount of mass is moving inside the gun. With open bolt, when the trigger is pulled, the entire bolt group moves forward. This tends to move the entire firearm because a lot more mass is set into motion. I have shot the open bolt M16 system. Like any open bolt system there is movement when the trigger is pulled and movement when the round goes off.

While the M16 and the Lage do use the same barrel and bolt, pushing two captive pins on the M16 can change the caliber or simply put a fresh barrel and bolt group into use. Could a barrel change be done with the DOLOS system on the Lage upper? Yes, it could, but the only caliber change would be from 5.56X45 to/from 300 BLK OUT. For 7.62x39 to/from 5.56X45, the bolt must be switched in the carrier. With the fixed firing pin of the Lage upper, the firing pin must be removed to pull the cam pin to change the bolt. Even with a Lage replacement bolt group, the process is still much more complicated than the M16, push out two captive pins. Could the caliber switch be done at the range? I think that depends upon the individual. Most M16 owners would agree, changing calibers in a M16 is a lot easier than changing calibers in a Lage Max-/15.

Hey I get that 30 grand for a M16 is a lot of money. It is great that you have the Max-10/15 that you can afford. That is the major reason I started developing the Tenko adapter. If I can get it reapproved, that adapter, on a M10, will give the similar functionality of a M16 registered receiver. Push two captive pins and change AR uppers. But even with similar functionality the Tenko adapted M10 will not be the same as a M16. And the Lage Max-10/15 will be even further off than the Tenko 10-16. Again I think Richard Lage makes quality products. But a Max-10/15 is not the same as a M16. YMMV.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversions L.L.C.

Posted: 1/18/2023 9:21:22 AM EDT

[#1]

I can't get a belt fed upper for a Mac. I can for my M16.

I can understand why people go the cheaper route given current entry costs.

Posted: 1/18/2023 11:32:35 AM EDT

[#2]

Engineering Adaptability and the NFA: Lage Max11/15 System

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh6m2lUxR_s

Posted: 1/18/2023 12:33:49 PM EDT

[#3]

I have both M10s and a M11 .380. I have various uppers for the guns and combined I can shoot 9mm, .45 ACP, .380 ACP, and 5.56mm with just an upper swap. The entire Lage product line has really made a huge difference to the enjoyment to be had with MAC as a platform and it makes sense (as far as MG prices make sense at all) that the MACs are increasing in value.

My 5.56mm upper is for the M10. So, I really have the biggest/heaviest option for shooting 5.56. Even with the 10.5" barrel it is long and fairly front heavy (add a rifle suppressor rated for full auto and that front heaviness increases significantly). It is a lot of fun but it is nothing like shooting a M16 or other purpose built assault rifle. That said, with a bipod and a Magpul D60 it makes a pretty decent light machine gun and is a lot of fun in that configuration. I really enjoy shooting the MAX-10/15 and I am not sorry at all that I bought it. However, if my primary goal was to shoot 5.56 I would have bought a M16 instead when I was buying MACs.

I think the MAC, with all the aftermarket support, is a better sub-machine gun than the M16. The only real advantages the M16 has over the MACs in a sub-machine gun role are that it fires from a closed bolt, has some better ergonomics, and has even better parts availability. I think most people would be much better served with a MAC and a few Lage uppers if one's primary goal is to shoot pistol cartridges. For shooting 5.56 the M16 is absolutely a better choice.

Posted: 1/18/2023 4:13:07 PM EDT

[#4]

I personally don't think a MAC is functionally the same thing as an M16 and I have owned multiple MACs and multiple M16s.

It you look at it from a purely on paper specs perspective sure both the M16 and MAC can fire a 22lr, 9mm, and 5.56 cartridges (plus a host of others) from a bunch of different uppers. The only significant on paper functionality spec gap between an M16 and a MAC is the MAC does not have any commercially produced belt fed option.

However, there is more to it than just base cartridge equivalency for most people when it comes to purchasing a five digit price tag transferable machinegun. Factors such as historical significance, prior and current US military use, parts availability, design aesthetics, closed vs. open bolt operation, ergonomics, prior use familiarization, pride in ownership, cost, etc. Clearly the machinegun market also agrees the M16 is the more desirable option as an M16 is roughly 2X to 3X the cost of a MAC even with the availability of the Lage uppers/parts/accessories.

Now you can certainly make the argument a ~$10,000 to $13,000 MAC plus ~$5K worth of Lage uppers, parts, and accessories (to bring it up to rough functional spec par to an M16) may be a better "value" than a $25K to $35K M16. i.e. is an M16 really twice as nice/good/desirable an a MAC? Personally I would say yes, but can see how others may disagree.

At the end of the day most folks who can afford an M16 are going to purchase an M16. Folks who are on a more limited budget will be well served with a MAC and some Lage uppers/parts. They both have their pros and cons but I don't know anybody (or very few anyway) who if offered a free "lifetime loaner" M16 or MAC (removing the intrinsic resale value from the equation) would say..... you know what...you keep that M16 and give me the M10 instead.

Just my two cents anyway.

Posted: 1/18/2023 4:23:27 PM EDT

[#5]

I've owned and fired both. A M16 feels much better to me when I am handling and firing it. I believe this is because the grip and trigger on the MAC doesn't feel as good to me as a M16/AR lower. My 22 cal CMMG uppers have also run much better than the 22 conversions I've shot on a MAC. Whether or not this justifies the price difference is subjective and depends on how deep your pockets are. Just my 2 bits worth.

Posted: 1/18/2023 5:10:01 PM EDT

[#6]

It’s not the “same” because it can’t be, unless “same” simply means it is capable of delivering the same round. It’s a converted SMG with a proprietary upper (and that dicey bolt latch) without the reliability, controls, aesthetics, compatibility and ergonomics of an M16.

Don’t get me wrong — Richard makes great stuff and his 5.56 uppers are great options. And I do think he will eventually make a belt-fed.

But if the option is there, M11s, M11A1s and M10s for pistol calibers and M16s for rifle calibers.

Posted: 1/18/2023 10:26:37 PM EDT

[#7]

Is it the same caliber? Yes

Does it shoot smooth...yes

It is as good or the same as an m16...no

I own both. The Lage is a great product, flat out by the way.

Posted: 1/19/2023 9:00:47 AM EDT

[#8]

The M16 is superior on all levels except price. It’s better quality, lighter weight, shorter, better trigger options, more accessories, more modularity, has belt fed options, etc…

Macs were a joke of a MG until lage modernized them. They are decent subguns and the fact that you can shoot 5.56 now is a nice bonus but it will never be an M16

Posted: 1/20/2023 12:46:32 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Is A Max-/15 The Same As A M16 Registered Receiver

View Quote

"MAX-/15" is an upper reciever.

"M16 Registered Receiver" is a full auto lower receiver.

Not even close the same thing.

Posted: 1/23/2023 2:34:31 PM EDT

[#10]

A Ferarri uses gasoline. So does my lawn mower. That does not make my lawn mower a Ferrari.

The MAX/15 format is slick, but it's not an M16.

Posted: 1/24/2023 1:22:30 AM EDT

[#11]

One is sheet metal and one is milled aluminum so no, they are not the same.

For 99% of people with available uppers either will do anything you want.

Boo hoo, you missed a belt fed upper (betcha that's in the works and does exist). Both have advantages the other doesn't. Mac is around 1/3 the cost and can use 72rnd drums in 9mm. M16 is quicker to do caliber changes and uppers are way cheaper.

Meh, I chose to save a little over $10k when I picked up my Mac over the M16 next to it. Even after all the mags and uppers and optics I still haven't made to the M16 price and I can shoot every caliber I have an AR in plus some. Hell, I can use the same barrels. I'm also working on a 22LR adapter for mine but several already exist.

If I wanted belt fed I would have bought something designed to be so from the ground up so I'm building a UK-59. Gonna be so much better than any M16 with any upper.

Posted: 1/24/2023 8:29:10 AM EDT

[#12]

This thread is dumb, and you should feel dumb. I own transferable MACs and I'm an 07/02. There is no comparison! They each fill their own niche.

Posted: 1/24/2023 8:48:13 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
This thread is dumb, and you should feel dumb. I own transferable MACs and I'm an 07/02. There is no comparison! They each fill their own niche.

View Quote

I don't feel "dumb". Yes, they each do fill their own niche. But the pervious poster argued that a M16 and a Mac style RR with a Max-/15 upper, on a different thread, were the same. Instead of cluttering someone else's thread I started this one.

Lage Manufacturing makes great products. I have shot a Max-11/15 and was impressed. It certainly gives more options to those that choose not to spend $30,000 on a M16. But the Max-/15 will never be the same as a M16, for all the reasons that have been listed on this thread. I don't think that is "dumb".

Scott

Posted: 1/28/2023 12:10:00 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

I don't feel "dumb". Yes, they each do fill their own niche. But the pervious poster argued that a M16 and a Mac style RR with a Max-/15 upper, on a different thread, were the same. Instead of cluttering someone else's thread I started this one.

Lage Manufacturing makes great products. I have shot a Max-11/15 and was impressed. It certainly gives more options to those that choose not to spend $30,000 on a M16. But the Max-/15 will never be the same as a M16, for all the reasons that have been listed on this thread. I don't think that is "dumb".

Scott

View Quote

I don’t think it’s dumb, lots of grumpy old farts around here that think they know it all. No one knows it all.
Good question the AFT can call it a firearm kinda like the FNC the upper is the firearm not the lower.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is A Max-/15 The Same As A M16 Registered Receiver

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