From Issue 14 of the Personal Survival Newsletter, issued very long ago.  Been reading through it, and very impressed at the quality of the contents.

The quote, issued after Cooper making specific comment on being open to new ideas; He made a big deal about that, in his prefatory comments.

"The Rifle

Now here we have something. Once people get used to a robust .30-caliber rifle, and begin to understand what can be done with it, they usually fall in love with it. It hardly matters whether it is Phase I (e.g. Mauser 98), Phase II (e.g. U.S. M-l), or Phase III (e.g. HK G3). The three categories do not serve exactly the same purposes, but what they do they do very well indeed. They all hit a solid, truck-stopping blow, and they all do so just as far out as their user can hit. And, with certain annoying

type-exceptions, they always work.

They are heavy; yes, a bit heavier than the "poodle-shooters". And that matters very little when your life is on the line. The emergency hurdle is type selection. When the militia assemble, we see a fearful muddle of actions, sights, triggers, slings, feeding systems, bipods, and stock designs. We can sort this out but it takes time.

If we could insure that every rifle had a good trigger -military or single-stage, but crisp- that would be a start.

If we could insure that every rifle were equipped with serviceable sights -either a strong, solid aperture like that of the M-1 or a strong low-mounted, low-powered, non-variable, forward-placed telescope- that would be better.

If we could insure that every rifle were fitted with a proper shooting sling, or, failing that, a bipod, that would be still better.

If, on top of these things, we could be sure that every magazine rifle had a couple of spare magazines and every M-l had plenty of clips- well, we would have the war almost won!

The 7.62 NATO -the .308- seems the way to go. It is not the best cartridge in the world but it is a very good cartridge and, like Everest, it is there. Even in backward .223 countries you can scrounge up plenty of .308. And after watching a good man show off with, say, a BM-59 or an SSG, one will not complain about this round.

Thus it comes to pass that either (1) I am a victim of creeping codgerism, or (2) principles remain principles. Naturally I favor (2), but not for personal reasons. There were various cool heads in attendance on this last rumpus, and we were not just in accord- we were unanimous. "

Submitted for consideration.

It appears that the murder rate inside prisons is ten times higher than that outside prisons. It must be due to all those Kalashnikov rifles that are issued to prisoners upon their incarceration.
Jeff Cooper

Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”
-- Jeff Cooper

“Bushido is all very well in its way, but it is no match for a 30-06.”
-- Jeff Cooper

“Not long ago it was easy to tell who the bad guys were. They carried Kalashnikovs. Now it is much more complicated, but one thing is sure - any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen.”
-- Jeff Cooper

A first rate marksman with a second rate rifle is better than Vice versa.
--Jeff Cooper

I could read Cooperisms all day long.

A few more
Offering democracy to an Arab is like bringing a horse to a steakhouse.
Jeff Cooper

Blessed are those who, in the face of death, think only about the front sight.
Jeff Cooper

The consensus is that no more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. These people fight small wars amongst themselves. It would seem a valid social service to keep them well-supplied with ammunition.
Jeff Cooper

What are we going to do if citizens are disarmed, and the government doesn't obey its own laws?
Jeff Cooper

We are somewhat amused by the hysteria manifest in the press at the suggestion by Gordon Liddy that if one is menaced by bad guys (particularly the ninja) one is wise to shoot for the head. That statement has got a whole bunch of journalists and commentators bleeding from the nose. One wonders why it should. Where else should you shoot a man if he is probably wearing an armored vest? If you decide to shoot you have made the big decision. Where you place your shot is merely a technical matter.
Jeff Cooper

The decay of the late, great country of South Africa is beginning to become apparent. The name of the Transvaal has been officially changed to 'Gauteng.' (One of our friends has suggested that in view of this its inhabitants in the future should be referred to as Oranggautengs.) ... And now there is a move afoot to wreck the Kruger National Park, one of the wonders of the world, on the notion that a good bit of its land was 'taken from the blacks.' This idea is somewhat akin to giving Yellowstone Park back to the Blackfeet.
Jeff Cooper

It appears that the Soviets are now going to allow prayer in school. One wonders how soon the United States will catch up.
Jeff Cooper

Link to "Cooper's Commentaries" http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/

It is Far, Far better to read Cooper in his books.  Such comments as made in magazines, are expanded, and so more valuable, in his books.  Books available on the usual vendors.

I  suggest you download the above-linked Comments, immediately, and read at your leisure.  Such are becoming increasingly hard to find......

Cooper never fully accepted the 5.56 ctg, most likely because of his background as a hunter of dangerous game, IOW, game that would kill you if the First shot failed.  I think this influence made a very great impact on his eval of the 5.56 ctg.

Whether or not he made a very significant re-eval of the AR, and 5.56 ctg, I leave up to the reader.
YMMV.

I agree with all of the above.

When you say, "...…...Personal Survival Newsletter, issued very long ago...……."
So 80's, 90's...………….. ?
When exactly...… because I'd figure the AR platforms have changed ALOT since he made those comments, ALOT!
Particularly since AR's now come in so many different calibers, including 308.
So the lines "have blurred,"...… in fact disappeared if you focus on some caliber debate...………….

I miss reading his stuff.

PSL was issued from 1977 to 1982.  It's unclear if issues dated subsequent to 1982 are re-prints, new material, or a mixture.  Anyone having any links to same is very emphatically asked to provide links or any other information.

Yes, I know that.  
Which is why I asked the OP about the published dates.
And he replied, "......PSL was issued from 1977 to 1982...…."
And in 1982 you had the choice of 223 in an AR15 and the 22lr conversion kits.

So OP, I'm not sure what Mr Cooper would say to an AR in 308...…
His comments that you've published are all caliber based.
So, maybe he wouldn't mind an AR now?????

Cooper died in Sept, 2006.  Presumably he was aware of some of the further development of the AR platform, but how much personal experience that he had with same I don't know.  I'm not aware of any remarks made by him, later on, that substantially ameliorated his original comments about the 5.56 as a military cartridge.  Perhaps he made such remarks, but I'm unaware of them.

Yes, and I was making mention of the AR(15) and not the AR10.
Regardless, he either didn't know about the AR10 you mention (unlikely?) or he thought so poorly of them.  
Because in the OP, he doesn't mention them...….

Still regardless of his caliber thoughts, he still, to this day, made some very quotable remarks……. ;)

Concur.  COL Cooper was, IMHO, usually right in his opinions, especially opinions based on longstanding knowledge/history. I have come to question his derogatory opinions of the 5.56 rd as regards close combat.   It has apparently been quite effective in that role.  OTOH, recent events have shown a need for a different round for other than close encounters (longer range), and so that introduces another possible round--or designated Rifleman--into the Squad/Platoon, which has been done, on at least an ad hoc basis.

Whether or not the improved 5.56 rds continue to be effective with future opponents wearing body armor is another question; one worth considering for a variety of reasons.  Hence this posting.

One thing for sure is that I didn't post this topic to create a debate about the AR platform.  As some have mentioned, the AR platform has advanced far beyond its' origins, and far beyond what Cooper ever knew.  Whether or not that is ultimately useful, is a subject for another thread.

I try to temper Cooper’s opinions by reminding myself that he frequently formed them around the concept of the singular rifleman over the military’s squad concept. He tried to find a general platform that could fill multiple roles, for a range of environments, in one package for the individual. His concepts were obviously limited to technology at the point in time he formed or amended them as well, which y’all have covered.

Yes, though I wonder if he saw todays AR15, in whatever caliber you choose, if he would comment differently is all.  
As Aero pointed out, the AR10 was around in his time, but he ignored it for a reason??

He was "spot on" on many things.

but his contempt for the AR15 and the 5.56nato are bullshit.

Perhaps because the 7.62 version of the AR was, at that point long ago, not well-sorted-out?  Certainly there was not the almost bewildering amount of well-made accessories for either the 5.56 and 7.62 platforms then, as compared to now.  Just guessing, of course, but Cooper rated reliability at the top of his list of firearms requirements.

He's right.

Now take this .308 Breda Garand for example.



It has a crisp trigger, excellent sights and it is very soft shooting and accurate.

If you have a bunch of clips you can carry a considerable amount of ammo using the Olongapo Grap and Go

Here I have 400 rounds of ammo--40 loaded en blocs and four boxes of ammo.



This rifle has a chrome bore and it is very easy to clean.  Cooper mentions a shooting sling and this rifle also has a proper 1907 sling .

I would not speak ill of the AR-15; however everyone who has fired  this .308 Garand just loved it.

There really is something about .30 caliber

This .308 Breda Garand is an amazing shooter.   Everyone who has shot the rifle has tried to buy her from me.

Understand that this rifle has not had any special bedding or accurizing done.

My buddy is a skilled shooter and he can hit the 300 meter silhouettes with ease.  He can hit them seven or eight times in a row.

An arfcommer shot this rifle at Camp Perry in 2017 and you should have seen all the Marines drool over that rifle.  I had to tell them, "Hey this hot Italian babe is mine"

Open to new ideas.

Describes 5.56 as “poodle shooter”, and calls countries where it is popular “backward”.

Those two things do not go with one another.

So was Jeff Cooper all knowing and his decrees never to be questioned?  Tech changes, ammo changes, and honestly old military guys seem to be resistant to change at times.

My Son is a pro long distance shooter and as such I have been exposed to some of the best shooters in the world. A couple of years ago I won a NICE .308. I didn't think much about it until I started shooting it. This thing is incredibly accurate. The pic above in my best 5 shot group at 300 yards. I'm waiting on my new "hotrod" set up in 6 Creed but for the time being I've really enjoyed shooting the .308. I've shot it out to 965 with no issues and small targets at 765 sound just fine when the "ring" makes its way back to me. I was thinking about selling this rig but changed my mind. It is very much like that "old pair of boots" that always work and never rub you the wrong way.

No but his “decrees” need to be viewed in the context of when he stated them, and the relative culture, doctrine and technology he applied them to.

Unfortunately, this has become a 5.56 Vs 7.62 conversation, despite my initial hopes, and fears.

I am in no position to speak for Cooper.  His comments speak for themselves.  Anyone who has thoroughly read the "Cooper Commentaries", linked above should be familiar with his experience-derived concepts.  If one has NOT done so, then one is very likely misinformed, and possibly uninformed as to Cooper's experience-derived statements.  Cooper did not make "pronouncements" in a vacuum, he had many students, and many rifles come through Gunsite.  This personal experience was curtailed long before Cooper's death, due to many factors, least of which was Cooper's declining health.

I might also remind readers that the US Mil very recently found itself lacking in long-range, portable, hard-hitting rifles, and had to scrounge amongst the M-14 rifles not given away by Bill Clinton to make them into ad hoc long range rifles until something better was devised.  It seems that the US Mil is still struggling to find the right way to do this.

As to short- or medium-range carbines, the 5.56 AR platform, with significant modifications from Cooper's day, has proven itself on battlefields the world over.  Mostly.

The 5.56 ctg, at most ranges for which it is suitable (short-to-medium) range, will not shoot through barriers that are penetrated by 7.62 rds, let alone 7.62 AP.   This is mere physics, and not open to serious discussion.

I still don’t get what his actual combat credentials are

Sir:
You used quotes from Mr Cooper that they themselves bring up the question of 5.56 vs 308.  His comments are focused on a caliber debate (That is his feelings that one caliber is better than another) but you say this thread isn't about caliber discussion..... ????
The M14's were brought back some 10yrs ago or so since the M110's (An AR based 308 rifle) were not being fielded quickly enough.  Once their numbers were sufficient, the M14 was withdrawn again.  
FWIW, the US Army hasn't abandoned the 308, it's still in use with the M240.  Which is and was in every Infantry Squad.  
But then you AGAIN start an argument over a caliber discussion, so is this thread about a caliber discussion or not?

I'll say again that Mr Cooper had some interesting quotes, he was very quotable.
But what was his combat experience?
Was he a Police Officer who survived numerous shootouts? Or investigated endless Homicides?  
Because his school experiences are something entirely different and as we've already discussed, very dated.

Maybe I've misunderstood you, what is the point to this thread?

How would Mr Cooper feel about HIS academy offering so many 5.56 classes if it were such a worthless caliber????
https://www.gunsite.com/gunsite-class-list/

Your original post starts that conversation in an adversarial way... hard to expect otherwise. Just sayin’...

There was nothing in the OP that was deliberately "adversarial" on my part.  I was simply presenting Cooper's comments on the 7.62/.308 rifle in the M1/M1A forum.  If I wanted to be "adversarial", I would have posted it AR General Discussions.

Not you, him. I presume you actually read it before you pasted it, right? His hostility on the subject is fairly well known, and when you post a bunch of “poodle shooter” nonsense on, say, AR15.com, you can’t really be surprised when it turns into a 7.62 vs 5.56 thing. You chose to start the conversation that way...

I have no axe to grind, I’m just pointing out the obvious. You are correct, though, that it is a .308 specific forum, but a lot of folks are interested in both.

I don't recall, personally, using the term "poodle shooter", although Cooper certainly did so.  I personally think that he was a bit short-sighted in that respect, given the AR platform's modularity and adaptability, and given his comments that the 5.56 AR was certainly effective at close ranges.  He was not alive to see the  current heights into which the modular AR platform has been taken.

That said, I think Cooper was informed by his big-game hunting experiences, particularly his dangerous game hunting, where a lion, in the brush, could leap or charge the hunter at close range.  Such an encounter requires more bullet than the 5.56.  In like manner, medium-range hunting also requires more bullet, for a humane game kill.  YMMV.

Getting back to the original post, I do believe that Cooper had some very good points as regards rifles.  Some are better for certain things.

Cooper used to say that "We don't need NEW Cartridges, we need better rifles.", and I concur. I believe he was always in favor of better-trained Riflemen, but that is a far more difficult goal to obtain than one's buying a good rifle.  I don't think most people here would disagree, but YMMV.

As regards the future of the 5.56 AR platform, I would say that further developments of the ctg must deal with the increased use of effective body armor worn by opponents/targets.  So far, our opponents have not have widespread access to such.  Rest assured, that situation will change, as other countries will supply their clients/surrogates with body armor effective against 5.56.  A blind man can see this.

That inevitable escalation being accepted, then we are back to the 7.62 rd as an alternative, at least in the short-term.

As with all things, change is the only constant.  To believe the current military weapon/ctg will be useful far into the future is folly.

Absent some sort of "miracle" 5.56 bullet, capable of defeating future enemy body armor, and that might be possible, the logical  next step is to use a heavier bullet. propelled at sufficient speed, in order to defeat enemy body armor.

Most of us are familiar with the current Mil/Civ grades of hard body armor, and the plates capable of defeating most 5.56 bullets.  The plates capable of defeating 7.62 rds are a level above 5.56 plates, and the plates capable of defeating 7.62 AP rounds at a level above that.

Anyone familiar with the "Tank" community will be familiar with the "Holy Trinity", which is:  Armor, Gun, Mobility.

To this point, I see the same thing happening with respect to the ground soldier.   Except that he cannot install a new engine in his body, so the armor must always be lighter, and of ever-more advanced construction.

But the  Armor and Infantry armor race will continue forever.

Everything changes.  No matter what.

The only constant in the Universe is Change itself.

Ok...… so ….. this IS an argument over caliber.

My suggestions to you are:
-Don't use a dated and biased source like Mr Cooper to form your opinions of the 5.56 platform.  Or any cartridge for that matter...….

-You don't understand how current cartridges are designed to deal with the various vests/plates that are in use.  
There are a lot of online sources to read and try to get a better grasp of that.

-You were never in the Military and same thing, you don't understand how and what the Military has been doing to address the threats, like improved body armor it faces.
There are a lot of online sources to read and try to get a better grasp of that.

Mr Cooper was a very witty man and contributed a lot to the shooting world but his dated thoughts about calibers isn't one of them.
You're right things change over time and the 5.56 cartridge has stood up to that test and become the cartridge of choice for endless Militaries and millions of civilian shooters.
And for good reason.

Thanks for your comments.  Others will evaluate the worth of all comments, as they will.

Perhaps I post too much.   I feel like I'm a modern-day Martin Luther, arguing against the "accepted" orthodoxy.

Removing myself from this discussion.

We'll see how it goes.

Tomorrow is another day.

For dangerous game, he preferred at least a medium bore (.35, .375, 9.3, etc.), and for the tougher stuff, a large-bore/heavy rifle (at least .40).

What he liked about the .308 was that it was a full-power, widely available cartridge also used in a variety of combat rifles that was short enough to allow for a more compact action compared to many other cartridges in its class.  At least that's my impression from reading his work.  I can't say I disagree with him.  If I had to pick one rifle to last me for years that had to put meat on the table, kill or disable a horse or vehicle, deal with barriers, defend against dangerous (but in this part of the world, typically thin-skinned) animals, and kill men under a wide array of circumstances, it would be a rifle in .308.

As I recall, when asked by Mel Tappan what rifle he'd pick as a combat rifle for a true SHTF scenario, he favored the BM-59 with a few 20-round mags (his was the type that was basically like a detachable-mag tanker Garand, probably made by Golden State Arms, as shown below, I think being used by Giles Stock).  He was also fond of his own personal HK-91, mainly because a gunsmith managed to give it an excellent trigger, which according to Cooper, was rarely possible with that design.  Most recent picture I saw of it during his lifetime showed it with some sort of reflex sight mounted to it.

IIRC, towards the end he was begrudgingly accepting that the 5.56mm was at least a somewhat decent anti-personnel cartridge.  He did speak of it favorably as a cartridge for use by women and others who couldn't handle full-power cartridges as well, going back at least to the 1970s.

IMO, every male citizen or other man who considers himself part of his community here, who is at least somewhat able-bodied, should own and be capable of using to military standards the standard service rifle of the day, or the closest available equivalent.  I think Cooper would probably agree with that.

Most of his combat experience is naval (onboard the Pennsylvania, as you mention), and not personal armed combat.  As I recall, he went ashore a few times as part of small landing parties to help direct naval gunfire from his ship, and on two occasions used his sidearm to kill one Japanese soldier in each incident.  He also says he used his sidearm to kill someone who fired on him in Thailand, which is where he did much of his service during the Korean War (as an advisor seconded to the Royal Thai Constabulary, IIRC).  Prior to that, during Korea, he was helping to instruct ROC soldiers in the use of small arms on Guam, since the ROC was still actively fighting the ChiComs back then.  Some of his stories are about close encounters that nearly led to shooting, including in the U.S. and Mexico, but in which that was avoided.  That seems to be the extent of his experience there.  Most of his experience killing things was in the hunting realm.

The .308 AR predated the .223 AR. The .308 was far superior to the AR-15 until the early 2000's Remember ammo was pretty much only 55 grain and not many bullet choices. The market has made massive changes since then. I got out of the army in the early 80's and bought an HK-91 based on my experience with training with the West German army.  I also carried a 1911 for a long time. I have modernized since then but .308 has a place.

I read that in Rush Limbaugh's voice.

Any serious shooter or collector of semi auto weapons should have at least one 7.62 NATO Battle Rifle
in the collection.

Could be wrong, but to my knowledge he never saw combat.

I totally agree

The old Colonel did talk much about the proper combat mindset for dealing with today's goblins.

So there's that.