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Posted: 8/20/2018 11:03:50 AM EDT
And shoot rockets out of it. I was envisioning somehow building my own rockets/"grenades" out of aluminum or plastic or something. And powering them with an Estes model rocket engine.
I would think this is doable, and would require an amount of trial and error on my part, but can someone point me to a place I can start? If I keep my propellant charge (rocket engine) <4 oz. and my "missile" explosive charge under 1/4 oz, I could, in theory, do whatever I wanted, correct? 
I was thinking of some kind of explode-on-impact explosive charge in the nose of the rocket. Maybe Tannerite or just smokeless powder? Obviously this would be just for fun and used only in a lawful manner. Yes, I typed that just for you, Mr. ATF Agent. If anyone could give me some pointers, where/how to start, or anything else i would appreciate it! |
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Posted: 8/20/2018 11:21:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
And shoot rockets out of it. I was envisioning somehow building my own rockets/"grenades" out of aluminum or plastic or something. And powering them with an Estes model rocket engine. I would think this is doable, and would require an amount of trial and error on my part, but can someone point me to a place I can start? If I keep my propellant charge (rocket engine) <4 oz. and my "missile" explosive charge under 1/4 oz, I could, in theory, do whatever I wanted, correct?
I was thinking of some kind of explode-on-impact explosive charge in the nose of the rocket. Maybe Tannerite or just smokeless powder? Obviously this would be just for fun and used only in a lawful manner. Yes, I typed that just for you, Mr. ATF Agent. If anyone could give me some pointers, where/how to start, or anything else i would appreciate it! As for what kind of charge... please skip launching binary explosive - once mixed, you cannot store it. That, and safety first - even 1/4oz of any HE going off in front of your face would be really unpleasant. My suggestion for ease of use and usability is to make a simple chamber which takes a blank round (12ga/20ga blank, or possibly a 38spl blank... something rimmed and easy to reload) which fires on impact, and vents smoke/noise from vents on the side. The propelling charge is an interesting set of options. You could use a rocket motor, which would be cheap and fairly simple, but you'll then deal with exhaust as the rocket leaves the launcher. Most rocket launchers, military examples from the last 60 years or so anyway, use a much shorter duration, higher-impulse method of getting the rocket out there so that it's already burned when the rocket leaves the tube. Bad backblast, sure, but the operator doesn't get a face full of exhaust! For getting started, there just isn't a whole lot of step-by-step specific discussion about this... yet. More than a few people are working on different solutions, so be safe and have fun. See what you come up with! |
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Posted: 8/20/2018 12:38:47 PM EDT
[#2]
There was a pretty good thread here about the efforts of a reenactor doing much the same thing with a bazooka. Perhaps someone more search skilled than I could find the thread. I have a demilled Spanish Super Bazooka that I haven't gotten around to doing anything with.
ETA: Think this is it: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/New_toy__replica_WW2_M9A1_bazooka/5-1850950/ |
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Posted: 8/23/2018 3:14:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
And shoot rockets out of it. I was envisioning somehow building my own rockets/"grenades" out of aluminum or plastic or something. And powering them with an Estes model rocket engine. I would think this is doable, and would require an amount of trial and error on my part, but can someone point me to a place I can start? If I keep my propellant charge (rocket engine) <4 oz. and my "missile" explosive charge under 1/4 oz, I could, in theory, do whatever I wanted, correct?
I was thinking of some kind of explode-on-impact explosive charge in the nose of the rocket. Maybe Tannerite or just smokeless powder? Obviously this would be just for fun and used only in a lawful manner. Yes, I typed that just for you, Mr. ATF Agent. If anyone could give me some pointers, where/how to start, or anything else i would appreciate it! |
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Posted: 8/24/2018 9:31:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Coming from someone who has tried something similar with a bazooka replica for reenacting, Estes model rocket engines suck for this. They simply don't have a high enough impulse for horizontal flight. Even the largest one you can buy without a permit. And it'll F you up with the exhaust gases. I'd go ahead and forget that one right now unless the projectile you're going to use is extremely light weight.
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Posted: 8/24/2018 9:38:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Go ahead and pull a stamp for it. Rudy at Macon Armory is working to finish my new barrel. He has a couple others to do and then will be working on projectiles.
I hope to be doing an article on firing the RPG2 for The Book of the AK47 including reproducing the projection charge. |
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Posted: 8/24/2018 11:06:24 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go ahead and pull a stamp for it. Rudy at Macon Armory is working to finish my new barrel. He has a couple others to do and then will be working on projectiles. I hope to be doing an article on firing the RPG2 for The Book of the AK47 including reproducing the projection charge. 
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Posted: 8/24/2018 9:56:49 PM EDT
[#7]
We've got a few irons in the fire including a project for Firearms News and the RPG2 project for hopefully Book of the AK47. Getting my sling made soon out of top grade leather and I'll be sending the RPG to Robar for finishing as soon as it's done.
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Posted: 8/25/2018 12:13:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Ever since I seen a member here reactiave a RPG I have wanted to do the same.
Could a sugar rocket be made to work? |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 12:37:49 AM EDT
[#9]
RPG2 projectiles use a 5.4 oz black powder projection charge. My RPG7 I’ll make some APCP motors for.
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Posted: 8/25/2018 10:00:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Could rig it up with a spotter round at the front of the rocket for some bang and smoke on impact
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Posted: 8/26/2018 1:20:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why rockets for ammo? Why not mimic the original RPG2 design and go with a black powder charge? The RPG2 is a Recoilless rifle...not actually a rocket launcher.
That probably makes thing easier. |
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Posted: 10/17/2018 6:49:32 PM EDT
[#12]
When you fire a real RPG, it's like a grenade going off on your shoulder in terms of loudness.
The concussion just from the booster is louder than most commercial-grade fireworks, and it spits the rocket out with pretty impressive force, nothing like in the movies with the slow "whoosh". There is no "whoosh" with an RPG, just, KA-BANG!!!! rocket flies super fast to the target>>>>>>>>>>warhead detonates, which is another loud explosion. The camera's mic on this video doesn't even begin to convey how loud the booster is:  Ukrainian Soldiers Shooting The Powerful Soviet RPG-7 And RPG-22 Rocket-Propelled Grenades |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 1:13:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
RPG2 projectiles use a 5.4 oz black powder projection charge. My RPG7 I’ll make some APCP motors for. Is there any threads out there on the construction of these launch charges? Even a legal 3 to 4 ounce charge would be impressive in a registered DD. What grade black powder do these utilize? Didn't the rpg2 use a charge in sections....the charge was divided by paper so it was not a continuous ignition? |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 1:32:47 PM EDT
[#14]
The B40 / RPG-2 is the main one I have been studying on.
We all can agree that we will not be firing real weight dummy rounds. I have been contemplating getting one and sleeving the entire tube with a small dia steel tube as a gauge reducer. Then using a black powder charge to launch a reusable 3D printed war head. The only thing I can not figure out is how to use the factory hammer to ignite the launch charge. Using the sleeved method would in theory make it safer after the main tube is welded up. It would be taking the pressure and one could reduce the inner bore Dia to give ample launch charge thrust but still allow a small amount of gas to escape the rear of the tube.  Rocket launcher B40 RPG at a Cambodian army base [youtube]kLj4zaoMkRE?t=382[/youtube]  cambodian rocket launcher |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 2:13:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Wingnut116ACW Is there any threads out there on the construction of these launch charges? Even a legal 3 to 4 ounce charge would be impressive in a registered DD. What grade black powder do these utilize? Didn't the rpg2 use a charge in sections....the charge was divided by paper so it was not a continuous ignition? 
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Posted: 10/18/2018 2:14:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The B40 / RPG-2 is the main one I have been studying on. We all can agree that we will not be firing real weight dummy rounds. I have been contemplating getting one and sleeving the entire tube with a small dia steel tube as a gauge reducer. Then using a black powder charge to launch a reusable 3D printed war head. The only thing I can not figure out is how to use the factory hammer to ignite the launch charge. Using the sleeved method would in theory make it safer after the main tube is welded up. It would be taking the pressure and one could reduce the inner bore Dia to give ample launch charge thrust but still allow a small amount of gas to escape the rear of the tube.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7T8azqhiDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLj4zaoMkRE?t=382
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeNz2A7nsYI |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 2:33:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A percussion cap and flash tube leading to a touch hole to your "gauge reducer", where you have a matching touch hole to ignite the launch charge. Seems fairly trivial. |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 2:41:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes but how are you going to get to the nipple or hole. The hammer is under the grip. 
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Posted: 10/18/2018 7:59:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, what? The nipple/tube/hole would be where your firing pin is (or would be, depending on the demil), currently. https://i.imgur.com/BPFfIMj.png |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 9:33:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cannon grade - at the absolute finest... or you have a bomb. For the divided charge, are you thinking of the PG-2 booster design? https://i.imgur.com/Hnt3NFO.png To be honest, I really am trying to learn, but other then playing around with a demill and reading bits and pieces I don't know much. If I could understand what all is involved with making a legal launching charge I would go the form 1 route. It would just be an expensive toy, but it would be a fun toy. Do you have any info you could share, or sources or forums I could read up on? |
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Posted: 10/18/2018 11:09:28 PM EDT
[#21]
I've tried to find projection charge diagrams, reference materials, or anything else but have come up dry other than the 5.4oz weight figure. I intend to figure it out through trial and error if I need to.
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Posted: 10/19/2018 1:12:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've tried to find projection charge diagrams, reference materials, or anything else but have come up dry other than the 5.4oz weight figure. I intend to figure it out through trial and error if I need to. |
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Posted: 10/19/2018 8:15:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What we need is a Russian speaker who can search for us.... |
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Posted: 10/19/2018 8:31:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's remarkably little technical information available in any language I've tried. |
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Posted: 10/19/2018 8:43:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hadn't thought of this before, but there is a guy who is a member of my synagogue back in my hometown that used to design weapons for the Soviets (not by choice...it was comply or go to the gulag for being Jewish). I might try to reach out and see if he has any ideas. |
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Posted: 10/19/2018 8:51:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Archery.
Arrow tips that use bullets, fire on impact. Use blanks instead of live rounds. Attach to your rocket nose. |
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Posted: 10/19/2018 10:16:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hadn't thought of this before, but there is a guy who is a member of my synagogue back in my hometown that used to design weapons for the Soviets (not by choice...it was comply or go to the gulag for being Jewish). I might try to reach out and see if he has any ideas. Oh, and no one even bother contacting the one USA-based company that makes RPG-7s... they aren't interested in divulging any details on the launcher or the PG-7, and were rather curt about it.
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Posted: 10/19/2018 12:59:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sounds more promising! I've found user-level information, design history, development history... but no specific launch/warhead design details specific enough to recreate them without a lot of trial and error. Anything that could avoid reinventing the wheel would be wonderful, even if it's just a small step in the right direction. Oh, and no one even bother contacting the one USA-based company that makes RPG-7s... they aren't interested in divulging any details on the launcher or the PG-7, and were rather curt about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I hadn't thought of this before, but there is a guy who is a member of my synagogue back in my hometown that used to design weapons for the Soviets (not by choice...it was comply or go to the gulag for being Jewish). I might try to reach out and see if he has any ideas. Oh, and no one even bother contacting the one USA-based company that makes RPG-7s... they aren't interested in divulging any details on the launcher or the PG-7, and were rather curt about it.
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Posted: 10/19/2018 1:17:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Can't fault me for trying!
 The AirTronic rep sure sounded like he wanted me to play in traffic, though...
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Posted: 10/19/2018 4:09:43 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't fault me for trying! The AirTronic rep sure sounded like he wanted me to play in traffic, though... |
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Posted: 10/19/2018 4:52:45 PM EDT
[#31]
What about a powerhead like they use for spearfishing for the impact detonation?
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Posted: 10/19/2018 6:25:06 PM EDT
[#32]
I have training projectiles sitting at Macon Armory right now. The big issue is projection charge workup.
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Posted: 10/19/2018 9:44:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Can you divulge any of the theories or plans for this? Pack a perforated tube with blackpowder? If you cant talk about it, are you planning on releasing reloading information in the future?
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Posted: 10/20/2018 12:01:00 AM EDT
[#34]
I'm not worrying about it until I have a functional tube and dummy projectiles. Then I'll work up a testing methodology and collect concussive blast data to see how bad it is for the shooter. My data I'll release open source and likely publish it in Book of the AK47
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Posted: 10/21/2018 3:11:32 PM EDT
[#35]
If all you can utilize is a small blackpowder charge, does the rpg7 expansion chamber help generate more speed for the dummy projctile?
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Posted: 10/21/2018 5:10:49 PM EDT
[#36]
I'll have you an answer once I can find someone to repair my RPG7. So I'll fire the same projos and charges out of both
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Posted: 10/22/2018 7:10:43 PM EDT
[#37]
@Mad-Machinist can make projos but they won't be cheap. They are difficult to make
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Posted: 10/22/2018 9:31:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@Mad-Machinist can make projos but they won't be cheap. They are difficult to make I was going to create a mold to rotoform a dummy warhead to hold the chalk powder and a small spotting charge. This will need to thread into or attach to a metal body to hold the ignition primer securely and in the proper position in the tube for positive ignition. I need to know the mechanics of the launching portion. I know in an earlier post you mentioned using an APCP composition for a functioning rocket motor, so I am assuming you have dabbled with rockets. I'm curious about how to make a basic blackpowder launching charge. Do I just pack the legal amount into a cardboard tube, tape the end, and fasten it to the metal puck that has a flashole from the primer? The lathe and mill portion I have under control; the not blowing myself up using it is the real kicker LOL. |
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Posted: 10/22/2018 11:27:20 PM EDT
[#39]
That with a lot of body armor is the way I intend to go about testing it
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Posted: 10/23/2018 11:38:07 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That with a lot of body armor is the way I intend to go about testing it 
Well hell, that does not give me the warm fuzzies
In theory, the pressures involved should be minor since the explosive is only acting against the stationary dummy rocket, and can vent freely from the back of the tube. That is why I am seeking knowledge on the rpg7 expansion chamber. Dont know if it would be better to sleeve with a straight tube ala rpg2, or preserve the chamber for more bang for the buck since we are legally mandated to a small charge. Bottom line is I have no experience with the rocket part and need to learn. Dont know where to go for this knowledge. |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 1:21:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well hell, that does not give me the warm fuzzies
In theory, the pressures involved should be minor since the explosive is only acting against the stationary dummy rocket, and can vent freely from the back of the tube. That is why I am seeking knowledge on the rpg7 expansion chamber. Dont know if it would be better to sleeve with a straight tube ala rpg2, or preserve the chamber for more bang for the buck since we are legally mandated to a small charge. Bottom line is I have no experience with the rocket part and need to learn. Dont know where to go for this knowledge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That with a lot of body armor is the way I intend to go about testing it
Well hell, that does not give me the warm fuzzies
In theory, the pressures involved should be minor since the explosive is only acting against the stationary dummy rocket, and can vent freely from the back of the tube. That is why I am seeking knowledge on the rpg7 expansion chamber. Dont know if it would be better to sleeve with a straight tube ala rpg2, or preserve the chamber for more bang for the buck since we are legally mandated to a small charge. Bottom line is I have no experience with the rocket part and need to learn. Dont know where to go for this knowledge. |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 1:28:17 PM EDT
[#42]
yep. RPG does not stand for "rocket propelled grenade" as many believe. and the PG-2 round is a recoilless rifle round with a disintegrating case.
no different than the other artillery that uses more than 1/4 ounce powder charge in the case. that limit is for the PROJECTILE. Also. I am closely following everything wingnut and rockhard post about this stuff. |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 3:32:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll take this moment to remind that a rocket and a recoilless rifle round are not the same thing...so you may not have a propellant limit depending on which type ammunition you reproduce.
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Posted: 10/23/2018 3:33:40 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yep. RPG does not stand for "rocket propelled grenade" as many believe. and the PG-2 round is a recoilless rifle round with a disintegrating case. no different than the other artillery that uses more than 1/4 ounce powder charge in the case. that limit is for the PROJECTILE. . Also, would the friendly atf man differentiate between the launching charge and the spotting charge, or just weigh all the powder together ala shoelace tied to the trigger and engraved sear pin hole (aka you may be correct, but the atf is always right kinda deal.... not something I would write to them about for clarification in 1 billion years) |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 3:55:12 PM EDT
[#45]
You could easily use the argument that there is no legal limit on the amount of lifting charge for a mortar. And that charge is actually housed in the projectile (though expended before exiting the tube) except for increment charges. Or imagine a black powder cannon that has the charge taped to the back of the projectile. It doesn't make it a DD. Crimping a casing full of 5lbs of cannon grade powder to a projectile does not make it a DD.
But I understand your hesitation as the BATFE's "rulings" and "letters" don't always follow logic. As demonstrated recently by the 50bmg AR upper reclassification |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 4:05:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have any more info on the part in red? Also, would the friendly atf man differentiate between the launching charge and the spotting charge, or just weigh all the powder together ala shoelace tied to the trigger and engraved sear pin hole (aka you may be correct, but the atf is always right kinda deal.... not something I would write to them about for clarification in 1 billion years) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
yep. RPG does not stand for "rocket propelled grenade" as many believe. and the PG-2 round is a recoilless rifle round with a disintegrating case. no different than the other artillery that uses more than 1/4 ounce powder charge in the case. that limit is for the PROJECTILE. . Also, would the friendly atf man differentiate between the launching charge and the spotting charge, or just weigh all the powder together ala shoelace tied to the trigger and engraved sear pin hole (aka you may be correct, but the atf is always right kinda deal.... not something I would write to them about for clarification in 1 billion years) But we know the actual charge is cannon-grade, black powder (yes, actual black powder). Let's not over-think this part. The black powder cannon guys load charges in some sort of pre-measured bags, then poke a hole in the bag after its loaded into the cannon. As for the rpg2, check YouTube for "nitrated paper." I suspect a thin cardboard tube of nitrated cardboard would be all you need. Just make 100% SURE the cardboard cannot lodge in the tube and block it. If that were to happen, your recoilless rpg would suddenly become not-so-recoilless. There's a video from Afghanistan of an illiterate local trying to shoot a 75mm recoilless when that happened (with severe bodily injury as a result). EDIT: here is the video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq_IW0303Zg |
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Posted: 10/23/2018 5:01:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could easily use the argument that there is no legal limit on the amount of lifting charge for a mortar. And that charge is actually housed in the projectile (though expended before exiting the tube) except for increment charges. Or imagine a black powder cannon that has the charge taped to the back of the projectile. It doesn't make it a DD. Crimping a casing full of 5lbs of cannon grade powder to a projectile does not make it a DD. But I understand your hesitation as the BATFE's "rulings" and "letters" don't always follow logic. As demonstrated recently by the 50bmg AR upper reclassification |
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Posted: 10/24/2018 9:29:09 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, I don't have specific info (and you didn't ask me). But we know the actual charge is cannon-grade, black powder (yes, actual black powder). Let's not over-think this part. The black powder cannon guys load charges in some sort of pre-measured bags, then poke a hole in the bag after its loaded into the cannon. As for the rpg2, check YouTube for "nitrated paper." I suspect a thin cardboard tube of nitrated cardboard would be all you need. Just make 100% SURE the cardboard cannot lodge in the tube and block it. If that were to happen, your recoilless rpg would suddenly become not-so-recoilless. There's a video from Afghanistan of an illiterate local trying to shoot a 75mm recoilless when that happened (with severe bodily injury as a result). EDIT: here is the video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq_IW0303Zg I'm thinking something like a perforated mesh ala m20 casing, it could easily be formed and soldered on a mandrel cheaply, then charged and wrapped in a protective wrapper. If it would thread to the body/primer puck like the real thing that would be even better/safer. Thanks for the info |
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Posted: 10/24/2018 10:54:52 AM EDT
[#49]
The reasoning behind being worried about capping the propellant charge at 4oz is as follows. 18 U.S. Code § 921 (a)(4) states:
While I agree that a recoilless launcher ought not to be covered under that particular definition, you're going to have an uphill battle convincing the BATFE and a court that your RPG-2's PG-2 design isn't a rocket. Which sucks. 
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Posted: 10/24/2018 11:48:14 AM EDT
[#50]
I don't see why. The PG-2 is not a rocket, and never was. The only people who say it is, still believe that RPG stands for "rocket propelled grenade."
here is a very informative article by SADJ. Its just one a start of diving into the RPG family and their design. Wingnut, it also mentions why the projection charge is segmented into six pieces, the original 2-piece segmented charge would blow the tube. I assume you were joking about trial and error with body armor on, as a test fire stand would be easy to fabricate. http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1042 |
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