OK, so several years ago I purchased some loaded .50BMG ammunition from Pat’s Reloading. Part of the order was 150 rounds of API (silver-tip). It was advertised as being loaded using surplus but never-fired brass (mine was mostly dated ‘43-‘54) with new primers (the pockets do appear swaged) and reclaimed powder. It arrived and everything looked good, exactly what you would expect from Pat’s. I fired one round of the API and it functioned fine (I know one round isn’t much of a test but it’s hard to find a place that will allow you to shoot API). So, fast forward to today, I dug that ammo can of API from out of my ammo fort because I have an opportunity to shoot some of it.

This is where it gets interesting.

When I opened the lid, there was a release of positive pressure from the can. The expelled gas smelled like a mix of old-newspaper and ammonia and a little like dead mouse. When I looked at the ammunition, the top of the brass on the top layer has turned PINK but only on half the brass case. The other half of each cartridge looks normal as well that the rest of the cartridges in the can (below the top layer).

The can was stored on a shelf, in a dry basement, under perfect conditions; ~67f year-round and low humidity with no extreme swings in temperature. I store most of my ammunition in this manner and never experienced anything like this before even with 1930s Turk and 1950s Ecuadorian 8mm.  

Honestly, my instinct is telling me I don’t want to shoot this stuff, even the cartridges that have not been visibly affected.

What do you think?

ETA- This is not a dig or an accusation against Pat’s in any way.

Yep sounds like the pull down powder has went bad. That sucks. DON'T shoot it and don't use that pink brass. Pull a couple of rds and look for "rust" in with the powder, or clumping, or any odd look to the powder. I used a flair tool as a bullet puller. Take the die out of your press, put the shell in the shell holder run the ram up, clamp the bullet with the flare tool and then run the press down and pull the bullet. It works slick.

There's been some batches of pull down that didn't have a lot of life left in them over the years. It's something about pull down powder that always makes me nervous.

pink brass?

got some pics to post?

I tried to take pics with my phone but they don’t properly show the color difference. I am going to dig out my hi-def camera and try to take better images.

Thanks for the replies. Dezincification is exactly what is going on. Odd that it is only visibly affected the top of the top layer of ammunition which leads me to believe some of the powder somewhere in the can is breaking down, outgassing and concentrating at the top. All of this ammunition is suspect so I won’t be shooting ANY of it. Since this is API I am wondering if it is safe to pull the bullets and save them for reloading

I’ve got about 300 rounds total of ammunition (M33, AP, API) that came from Pat’s in the same order. I now consider it all suspect. After the whole Kentucky Ballistics/RN50 incident, that was a wake-up call not to fuck around with any 50BMG cartridges that have issues.

Thanks again.

Yep I will second that the bullets should still be good, and probably most of the brass and primers. Like said, pull down, and I would add as you dump the shells. Dumb shell into empty container and inspect the powder, if there's "rust" (it's not rust) in or on the powder. Scrap that piece of brass and put that powder in your yard/garden it's only good for fertilizer now. IF the powder looks good in that shell, and in looking into the brass with a bright light and primer is still good. YOU MIGHT be able to use the powder (But as cheap as pull down powder is. I probably wouldn't, or if I did, I would shoot it that weekend). BUT I would check the condition of the powder in each shell as my tell for if that piece of brass is still good.

As powder breaks down, it gives off N03 gas, that is the active part of nitric acid. It attacks the other powder and the brass and the primer. Think of the powder like a box of apples, it only takes one to start rotting and it will all start to rot. As it attacks the brass it makes it brittle. That is why old ammo, often times has split necks, or case splits when we shoot it. And sometimes even before we shoot it, necks start cracking. It's because the powder was starting to off gas.

I think this is a common problem with old 50 ammo. Have you ever noticed how a lot of the pulls that we buy, like one in 10 or 20 will have a blackened base, not talking tar, talking corrosion. I think it's because that rd was going bad when they pulled it down. I noticed this on the base of a lot of bullets from a batch of 8mm that I had that was going bad, and I pulled it down. On mine the powder looked "fine" maybe 1 in 10 had powder that looked almost wet/clumping. BUT the brass was fuzzy/discolored on the inside and the base the the bullets was the same. AND it reacted with the primers, and they looked (from shining light into case and looking down into the flash hole) like white mold and fuzz was growing up out of the flash hole. That's what I would use to figure if you want to re use the brass and primer.

LOL when I pulled that 8mm. The system I had was, when I had good brass/primer, I saved it, and down loaded the powder that looked good. And shot it that weekend. You follow... Pull a round, check it... Junk... next  junk, next Oh good, down load a couple g (on a 8mm) put back together and shoot that weekend. I ended up shooting about half that ammo, and no duds. The rest was junk. It was some 1940s ammo that was going bad. It was a PITA but it went away. Oh and often the "moldy" primer was the FIRST sign that was a bad rd.  

You might have caught it early and can use everything but the powder, OR it might be to late, you won't know till you pull it down. BUT it's on a clock... lol it's not going to get better. And I would separate it from other ammo, and view it as on a clock to being a fire hazard... if left long enough shit catches on fire on it's own (but sounds like that's a while off).

Around 200f I purchased 2 8# jugs of surplus BMG powder from Pats.
I few months later I was walking through my basement with my GSD.
Dog ran into my reloading room and began barking at the area where the powder was stored on a shelf.
It had begun breaking down.

I slowly carefully removed a lid, away from my face, and whoosh, pressure was releases, smelled like what the OP experienced but much worse.
The powder was wet and sticky, perfect storage conditions.
I did some internet searching and indeed there were others who experienced the same, including cases of 'alleged' spontaneous combustion.
Phoned Pat's with some questions and the old 'we're not responsible for storage conditions'.
Glad that my GSD has a good sniffer, no more pull down\surplus powder for me.  

Can't find the original article that I searched for but I did find this.
Military Surplus Powder autocombusting

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=3&t=248538 (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=3&t=248538)


I run a long range shooting club here in NM. Yesterday a member approached me with a question about a powder he is using. He said " it's fuming" ........What?

I walked down and sure enough the powder was outgassing a very heavy oder of ammonia and Nitric Acid fumes. The powder was slowly turning sticky and had,from over night, corroded the brass cases and the projectiles.

This powder is milsurp pull down IMR-5010 powder that was sold in bulk from the long gone Talon company. Weidners and Pats reloading sells this powder in black plastic 8 pound jugs. There are no lot numbers or dates on the label.

I have been reloading since 1964 and have never seen this happen before. As you know nitro-cellulose uses Nitric Acid to make the propellant. Some how the acid was not neutralized correctly. When the acid is not removed from the powder grains, the deterent coating will break down and uncontrolled burning will happen. The powder may detonate rather than burn

If any of you have any powder that was OK a few months ago you may want to check it again. This powder was normal just last winter. Now it is breaking down. It was stored in a cool room. It was not left in the sunlight.

Chris at Weiders has been notified.

This was purely a PULLDOWN powder issue. NOT a Virgin IMR-5010 issue. I know the guy this allegedly happened to (Paul A. of Albuquerque). I suggested he post the source, acquisition date, etc but to date he has not. He told me the powder was PULLDOWN IMR-5010 from www.wideners.com (http://www.wideners.com/). Wideners allegedly told him they would not replace the powder as his storage of it was beyond their control. Also, he had no direct status with them as he obtained this particular jug from another guy that had bought it from wideners.

I personally know the guy this happened to and unless you see some sort of acrid fumes coming off your powder, I wouldn't worry about it. Paul is a real cheap skate. He was loading $2.00 Lehigh 800 grainers with surplus powder. Silly way to save $0.25.



http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?52892-Warning-surplus-IMR-5010-powder-users
1. 10-02-2009, 11:02 AM#6 (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?52892-Warning-surplus-IMR-5010-powder-users!!!!!&p=1046249#post1046249)

[b]Cincinnati Kid (http://forums.gunboards.com/member.php?354-Cincinnati-Kid)


That IMR 5010 powder that came from Talon has caused several large fires here in Ohio, two of them locally to a friend of mine, and one large fire in Northern Ohio that I know of. Anyone who has any of that 5010 powder that came from Talon needs to dispose of it if it shows any signs of breaking down. I wouldn't trust any of it.