How do folks with DIAS keep their semi auto hosts legal when they don’t have the DIAS installed?

A semi auto with Full auto Trigger and Full auto selector can technically fire in full auto, right? If the selector is In the auto position the hammer would normally get stopped by the sear then released when the BCG makes contact with the sear. Without the sear the hammer will follow the BCG forward, obviously dangerous but per definitions it would be a MG.

Am I missing something or is this a issue that DIAS owners have to deal? If so how? Remove the selector  or trigger parts when not in use?

Well I can't answer your question, but if I had a DIAS I would never have to worry about what happens when I take it out, because it would never come out.

I would personally take out the trigger pack if you don't plan to have a DIAS in it.

Semi auto is semi auto no matter where the selector is pointed and to what label the selector is pointed.  

I have a lightning link.  With the link removed, if I move the selector to the auto position the gun fires in semi.  Basically I have 2 semi positions at that point.  

A much more pertinent issue is when the link is removed, you’ll have to worry about having an SBR (I mean if it is an SBR).  With a link or Dias in place, it doesn’t matter if you have an SBR because the machine gun registry covers it.   I did register mine as SBRs to cover that particular situation.

Full auto Trigger/hammer along with full auto selector can and will lead to hammer follow in the third position and the occasional burst fire without an m16 sear present.

A good RDIAS will fit snuggly, (basically press fit) onto the upper rear takedown lug which mean's it wont stay in the lower when you open it up.  There's no real easy way I can think of to do what you are trying to accomplish.

However, if the ATF was sitting and watching you take apart your rifle I would guess the only way to go about it would be to remove the three position selector from the lower, then remove the RDIAS in that order, and replace with semi selector.

Edit, nevermind, I went too far out in the weeds with it. lol.  I was assuming worst case scenario, (flipping rifle upper open when RDIAS sticks to upper rear lug so now lower is non compliant.)

Not to difficult.  The full auto FCG needs to only be in whatever lower you are using with the RDIAS at that time.  If you move the RDIAS to a different lower, then the full auto FCG also needs to move to that lower.

Except with an RDIAS it needs the complete full auto FCG to operate.

When you put a three position selector in a rifle with a full auto disconnector, once you put the selector to the third position it cams the disconnector out of the way and the hammer is no longer engaged on the disconnector.  This causes the hammer to follow the bolt carrier home and fire more than one round occasionally.

Are you saying a lower with a Geissele SSF trigger is a machinegun?

Any M16/full auto trigger group + a M16/full auto selector can in theory make a semi-auto lower go full auto if the selector is moved to the third position.

Granted if you owned a DIAS and had it with the semi-auto hosts I would think most LE would be understanding of the situation, but technically each of your semi auto hosts would be capable of full auto fire, even without the DIAS installed.

I suppose removing the pistol grip and sliding out the full auto selector is the easiest method?

Just seems like its not as modular as some make it out to be if you are a stickler on following the ATF guidelines.

I have a RR so I hate messing with screws and pins as im always worried about damaging it. But with a RDIAS I guess its not as big of deal as you would only be damaging a $100 lower, not a $20,000 lower.

The appeal of a DIAS is you can have dozens of host rifles, in different calibers, custom lowers, etc...just move the tiny piece of metal from gun to gun.

Im not really in the market for a DIAS, I was just cleaning my RR and looking at the internal mechanics and wondered how people dealt with the legality of semi auto hosts.

It appears the correct way is to remove some or all of the full auto parts, but I wouldnt be surprised if most people just leave the parts in place, especially if they only intent to shoot the host with the DIAS installed

Not an NFA lawyer here, but I don't think this line of reasoning is correct.  

How does a FA selector, by itself, make a machine gun.  That is, fire twice on one trigger pull.

If a FA selector is by itself a violation, then why isn't an M16 bolt?

If a FA selector is by itself a violation, then why isn't a RDIAS trip?

My sense is that neither a FA selector or an M16 bolt installed in a lower will draw scrutiny.  The famous third hole certainly will.  A non-registered DIAS body will.

I think the more present danger is creating a non-registered SBR when the RDIAS is not in a short barrel lower.

One man's opinion.

With my rll I made 3rd burst kits. With link out it will not fire fa.
I did sbr all my AR host just to be safe.
If I had a DIAS I would probably just use one lower but if moved to another gun would remove fire control group.
Now I just don't give a shit.
Fuck the ATF

No.  But one with an ssf and a 3 position selector can fire more than one shot per pull of the trigger in the third position

I don't think most owners care and just leave the parts in.  I've never heard of a prosecution besides Olofson.

It's really not about being legal or not.
Most gun people don't like guns doing something there not expecting.
If it didn't have the DIAS  it may go off or not or go boom.
Play safe always! Now get the coat hangers and shoe string

You don’t have to remove the pistol grip in order to swap the full-auto selector with a semi-auto one.

1.  Pull the hammer back so that the trigger drops low enough for the selector to clear.
2.  Rotate the selector about halfway between safe and fire.
3.  Push from the right side to pop the selector out the left.
4.  Insert a semi auto selector from the left side.
5.  You’ll need something small and flat to depress the safety selector plunger into the receiver so the selector can clear it. A tiny flat head screwdriver works fine.
6.  Once the semi auto selector pops into place, you now have a semi auto firearm with no third position.

If the safety selector is too difficult to remove this way, you can either remove 1/2 to one coil off the safety selector spring, or rub the pointed tip of the safety selector detent across a file a few times to take some of the sharpness off the tip.

With this method you can use a single full auto selector that moves with the DIAS.  A full auto hammer, trigger and disconnector by themselves won’t allow a host gun to slam fire when used with a semi-auto selector when the DIAS is not present.

I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, so nothing I’ve said above should be construed as legal advice.


-bob

Neat, I didnt know you could remove the selector without removing the pistol grip and drop our the plunger/spring.

I have not heard of this before.  How, exactly does this happen?

Givens:  SSF trigger group.  FA selector.  No DIAS.

What selector position causes operation different than what was selected?  And how does this happen exactly, as in explain the hammer/sear interface during the malfunction.

With a full auto selector and M16 fcg (or SSF), the third position will hold the disconnector back but there will be no auto sear to hold the hammer back. So the hammer will follow the bolt home resulting in occasional doubling or tripling. Use match primers and it will fire more consistently.

That's how Olofson got convicted.

A guy who used to be a small arms armorer for the military and is now an FFL Dealer taught me this technique a number of years ago.  He warned me that the small screwdriver can easily scratch the flat outer surface of the selector.  The military didn't care, but he never used the technique on his own or his customers' ARs.  What he suggested was to carefully only loosen the grip screw enough to allow the selector detent to drop down enough to remove (and install) the selector.  Takes more time than popping out and screwdrivering back in the selector, but avoids the risk of scratching the selector finish.
MHO YMMV, etc. Be well.

To be completely 100% legal and in the clear based on prior ATF guidance, a semi-auto AR15 should not have any M16 fire control components in it.

So that means when the RDIAS comes out of the lower, the M16 trigger, disconnector, and selector need to come out with it.   That may be a bit of overkill but I would probably remove the M16 trigger and disconnector given the selector is a bit more of a PITA to remove and doesnt really do anything at that point once an AR15 trigger and disconnector are now installed.

I presume there are no shortage of folks who have multiple RDIAS host lower with M16 internals and the odds of getting caught and prosecuted are probably slim.  However, the ATF does consider an AR15 with those three parts to be a machineguns, has prosecuted folks for that, and has put people in jail for it.  The most famous (or infamous) being the Olofson case.

If I owned a RDIAS and basically went to the trouble to spend $30K for a "get out of jail" piece of paper, I wouldn't then go and make a bunch of AR15s full of M16 FCGs that could put me in jail.  Maybe you have them and keep them locked up at home and only take one with you at a time.   However, I certainly wouldn't go driving around or to a public range with multiple AR15s full of M16 FCGs and one RDIAS as you are then just one traffic stop away from problems.

I think this is really where RLL have an advantage over RDIAS as they are a much more "drop in" conversion part with no worry about M16 FCG parts in the host gun(s) if you just go Safe/Auto.   (not to mention you can buy two RLL for one RDIAS giving you even more flexibility)

Even if you have a modified 3 Round Burst setup for Safe, Semi, Full, it still is only Safe, Semi, Semi with the link removed.  Although personally I only keep one set of modified 3RB FCGs for each of the two RLL I own and move those two sets around as needed but have a bunch of RLL prepped lowers for safe/auto operation where I don't really care about the semi function.  

It really does surprise me that RLL are as cheap as they are given their versatility and general rarity ( I have heard 500 or less exist).

No, they don't.  If that were the case then we wouldn't be able to have M16 bolt carriers either, which nearly every AR15 has, which is also a required for an M16/RDIAS to run in FA.

The gun has to fire more than one round with a single function of the trigger to be a machine gun.  Even the Olofson case you mention is because it fired more than one round with a single function of the trigger.  There was an M16 selector in it (as well as hammer, trigger, and disconnector), allowing the disconnector to be moved into the auto position so it couldn't grab the hammer when firing.  That caused the hammer to follow/ride the carrier back when discharging the firearm, producing erratic multiple shots (and then jamming).

jbntex I've seen you around for years, and you've had a lot of good advice, but I just can't agree with you on this one.  In either case, I don't suppose it matters since the OP has neither an RLL nor an RDIAS anyway.

Each person has to weigh any perceived risks when using NFA firearms.  It's unfortunate we have a governing body that continually changes it's opinion, in a hobby where nearly every mistake or run-in with said governing body is a felony.

In my opinion, a gun that only fires one shot when you pull the trigger is not a machine gun.  This seems to match what the ATF says today.  No promises what they say tomorrow.

-bob

Reliable sources on the now defunct Subguns.com website discussion forum were of the opinion that SWD registered 520 LLs.  Part of the reason for a lower value is that RLLs are known to break.  KNS makes a protector.  Some RRLs are known to have been irreparably damaged.  In fact, a few years ago there was an ad on Gunbroker for a "RDIAS".  What it was, was in fact a post-86 DIAS with the serial number section of a RLL tig welded on the DIAS body.  The ad was gone before I had a chance to grab any photos.
MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.

It seems to me we are more in agreement than disagreement on this.

I didn't mention anything about bolt carriers, only M16 Fire Control Parts, specifically the Trigger, Disco, Selector and I totally agree with you that "a gun that only fires one shot when you pull the trigger is not a machine gun."

The problem is that a "semi" AR15 when outfitted with an M16 trigger, M16 disconnector, and M16 selector can easily fire sporadic burst fire when set to auto as the disconnector is cammed out of the way and the hammer will follow the bolt carrier home.  It doesn't really matter what hammer or bolt carrier you have.  (unless you have a SP1 style notched semi hammer, SP1 carrier and SP1 large collar firing pin that will catch and hold the bolt from closing but that nobody has those parts in a RDIAS host anyway)

As you point out, this is exactly what Olofson had  "Even the Olofson case you mention is because it fired more than one round with a single function of the trigger.  There was an M16 selector in it (as well as hammer, trigger, and disconnector), allowing the disconnector to be moved into the auto position so it couldn't grab the hammer when firing.  That caused the hammer to follow/ride the carrier back when discharging the firearm, producing erratic multiple shots (and then jamming)."

What Olofson had in his possession is exactly what a RDIAS owner has when they pull the RDIAS out of the host its installed in.   To be clear, I am not talking about, hey I need to clean this gun and temporarily remove the RDIAS, or the RDIAS came out when I pull the upper off, etc.    

The OPs question from my perspective was, I want to have multiple RDIAS AR15 host guns ..... how do I keep them legal when the RDIAS is installed in another host gun lower?  The really only legally 100% safe option is not have in your possession more semi AR15s lowers with M16 Fire Control Groups installed into them than you have RDIAS.  

If you move the RDIAS to another host gun lower than those M16 FCG parts should really move with it to the other host lower so you don't have a "slam fire Olofson" machinegun left over.  Granted, if you only have one set of M16 FCG parts in your possession, than  they need to move with the RDIAS anyway otherwise the RDIAS won't function.

I know its a pain in the ass to move all those parts every time you want to move the RDIAS to another lower host, but that is really the safest option.  

As I mention in my original post, at a minimum I would replace the M16 trigger and disconnector with AR15 parts when the RDIAS is moved to a new host as once those two M16 parts are removed the gun can't slam fire more than one shot with the pull of the trigger even if you leave the M16 selector and hammer in there.  However, if you are going to pull the M16 trigger and disco, you might as well pull the M16 hammer as it has to come out to get the trigger and disco out anyway.  The selector is more of a pain to remove and is pretty much worthless mechanically from a full auto perspective once the M16 trigger and disco (and/or hammer) are removed.  You could also just remove the selector but I would personally rather not leave the full auto disco, trigger and hammer in a former RDIAS host over a less than 1 minute it takes to get those parts out as well.

Just my 2 cents anyway and everybody is welcome to make their own risk/reward decisions.

This is my personal take on this subject. Being fortunate enough to have a DIAS, what I do with my various lowers is all of them have a M16 hammer, trigger, disconnector. They all have a modified semi automatic selector. I have made a relief half way between the safe position and the fire position. I have one full automatic selector with the same relief between the safe and semiautomatic position. All of my grips are held in with the flat blade headed screw. I find loosening the grip a little makes it easier to reinstall the selector lever.

There are those that would say that it is not legal to have a M16 hammer, trigger and disconnector in a semi automatic AR. My response is that with a semi automatic selector installed, the firearm will only fire one round per function of the trigger, even with M16 hammer, trigger, and disconnector. I think that a reasonable person could understand that those parts are not in the gun for illegal activities. That is how I look at it. I have several MGI modular magwell lower receivers. One of those is where the DIAS and full auto selector usually resides. Once in a while I do put the DIAS and full auto selector in my Colt 9mm lower with DOE style upper. Or it will go into a lower with KNS spade grips modified for use with the Valkyrie Armaments belt fed system and water cooled 20" upper. I normally make the switch at home, but I suppose I could do it at the range. YMMV.

Scott

Dont have more than 1 lower with a F/A FCG.

This, but why remove it?

Canon3285 / Scott mentioned some good reasons for moving above.
Like him, I also use the MGI modular lower so my RDIAS says in there 99% of the time.  As you can see in the picture below those are just some of the configurations I have for it.
The one configuration where I would move it would be to to run .40SW with my CMMG RDB that uses Glock mags.  I actually have the MGI small frame Glock lower as well but it presents the mag too high for it to feed properly for the CMMG RDB system and I'm hesitant to mod the mag catch / magwell since those MGI Glock magwells are so hard to find.

I learn something new everyday.  And thanks to all for the well-reasoned ideas.  

I am thinking that the easiest way to make yourself safe, in a legal sense, is to remove the selector.  Just loosen the hand grip just a little, slide the selector out.  You don't need to remove pins and going back in you don't have to align trigger parts with pins and holes.  I do think you have a dangerous gun in the sense that you can't select "safe" but from a legal standpoint, I think the hammer will catch the sear and not ride the bolt carrier to the firing pin.  I think.

Would appreciate a critique of this genius plan.