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Posted: 5/29/2023 4:59:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And you can keep a 30 rd mag in and sling it behind your back just as easily. And you dont have to divide 10 rds into anything. Not quite as easily. |
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Posted: 5/29/2023 5:13:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not quite as easily. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And you can keep a 30 rd mag in and sling it behind your back just as easily. And you dont have to divide 10 rds into anything. Not quite as easily. Lol. Ok |
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Posted: 5/29/2023 5:17:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't. I recall there being rules about no outside magazines. But they just make a convenient way to have ammo around. If your job is to bring your rifle while you go do some work on a rocket launcher or vehicle or something, having a 10-rd flush magazine instead of a 30 loaded makes the whole rifle as easy to keep out of the way as if it were unloaded but while still having ammo loaded. They are just a convenient ammo availability option. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Im curious why you think .mil guys will be using ten rounders so much I don't. I recall there being rules about no outside magazines. But they just make a convenient way to have ammo around. If your job is to bring your rifle while you go do some work on a rocket launcher or vehicle or something, having a 10-rd flush magazine instead of a 30 loaded makes the whole rifle as easy to keep out of the way as if it were unloaded but while still having ammo loaded. They are just a convenient ammo availability option. Wouldn't the pistol grip protruding catch on stuff, unless you're using one of those funky folding pistol grips? I think a 20 rounder would accomplish what you're seeking a lot better. It doesn't stick out past the pistol grip and would give you twice as many rounds. |
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Posted: 5/29/2023 5:27:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If carrying a spare mag on the gun I prefer the BFG Readi-Mod route over a mag on the stock Same. Pretty sure it was you who convinced me to do it. Pretty sure I cracked it's code to get the fastest magazine changes even as a left handed shooter. |
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Posted: 5/29/2023 5:33:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't. I recall there being rules about no outside magazines. But they just make a convenient way to have ammo around. If your job is to bring your rifle while you go do some work on a rocket launcher or vehicle or something, having a 10-rd flush magazine instead of a 30 loaded makes the whole rifle as easy to keep out of the way as if it were unloaded but while still having ammo loaded. They are just a convenient ammo availability option. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Im curious why you think .mil guys will be using ten rounders so much I don't. I recall there being rules about no outside magazines. But they just make a convenient way to have ammo around. If your job is to bring your rifle while you go do some work on a rocket launcher or vehicle or something, having a 10-rd flush magazine instead of a 30 loaded makes the whole rifle as easy to keep out of the way as if it were unloaded but while still having ammo loaded. They are just a convenient ammo availability option. I would think that the barrel and stock and how it's slung or not, would be the contributing factors in such confines, and not the magazine which is parallel to the body and not transverse. |
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Posted: 5/30/2023 8:14:02 AM EDT
[#6]
In terms of vehicle or foot mobility, my thinking is pretty much dismounted patrolling, as in a patrol route to your adjacent neighbors, doing health and welfare checks, while you patrol your immediate area for intruders. In this scenario, you are essentially a trip wire for your neighbors, to allow them to prepare for any intruders. The SOP would be to break contact, but still keep them from rolling right up to anyone's homestead; just enough time to allow them to prepare a defense or evacuate. In this scenario, bounding back, you can burn through several mags in a hurry. And there is no gun truck to re-supply from (although a cache site might be a possibility).
If you really had your shit together, you might have a quick reaction team to reinforce your patrol, and either drive them off, or help break contact. This is nothing different from the way our ancestors reacted to Indian/French/Spanish/English intruders in the past. Nobody ever questioned why you needed a rifle; it was just assumed every able-bodied man had one and knew how to use it. It was also just taken for granted that the world was a dangerous place, and you better be ready to protect yourself and your loved ones. Concepts many folks have forgotten; and many folks are re-discovering. Yes, I am very foot patrol centric. Yes this all can change when/if vehicles are involved. Also realizing that not everyone will be able to live out in the boonies. But good on ya if you can. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 8:10:51 AM EDT
[#7]
 1 on the belt 3 on the carrier 1 in the gun 150rds solves any problems I'm going to have and stay's light and nimble. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 12:15:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In terms of vehicle or foot mobility, my thinking is pretty much dismounted patrolling, as in a patrol route to your adjacent neighbors, doing health and welfare checks, while you patrol your immediate area for intruders. In this scenario, you are essentially a trip wire for your neighbors, to allow them to prepare for any intruders. The SOP would be to break contact, but still keep them from rolling right up to anyone's homestead; just enough time to allow them to prepare a defense or evacuate. In this scenario, bounding back, you can burn through several mags in a hurry. And there is no gun truck to re-supply from (although a cache site might be a possibility). If you really had your shit together, you might have a quick reaction team to reinforce your patrol, and either drive them off, or help break contact. This is nothing different from the way our ancestors reacted to Indian/French/Spanish/English intruders in the past. Nobody ever questioned why you needed a rifle; it was just assumed every able-bodied man had one and knew how to use it. It was also just taken for granted that the world was a dangerous place, and you better be ready to protect yourself and your loved ones. Concepts many folks have forgotten; and many folks are re-discovering. Yes, I am very foot patrol centric. Yes this all can change when/if vehicles are involved. Also realizing that not everyone will be able to live out in the boonies. But good on ya if you can. I'm with you. If I'm carrying a long gun then Im think patrolling or as a QRF for a neighbor in the eotwawki. Carrying a long gun is imo different then using a truck gun or responding to a bump in the night at home. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 6:21:32 PM EDT
[#9]
I haven’t read any responses (yet) and have been drinking copious amounts of bourbon on my day off. I only carry one 30 rd M4 mag on my bat belt ( and 2 x pistol mags ) I’m typically in lo pro gear ( pistol and 1-2 pistol mags ) or my.bat belt. I have access to a bandoleer with extra mags if things go south quickly or I grab the PC when deploying my M4.
I used to be the one carrying a gazillion mags on armor and such- that sucks in the real world. As I get older - weight matters. |
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Posted: 6/9/2023 7:06:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Double tap - too much bourbon
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Posted: 6/9/2023 7:37:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1 on the belt 3 on the carrier 1 in the gun 150rds solves any problems I'm going to have and stay's light and nimble. This is how I have my setup as well. I have the option to add +1 to the belt and up to +4 on the carrier (2 on each side on cummerbund) but I think I would "max out" at no more than 8 in total. That is my thinking for MOST scenarios. If I ever were in a situation where I needed more, I would really start to question my own judgement. |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 9:07:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Over the years, there have been two general lines of reasoning. The LEO thinks in terms of current sits, and his own experience. That is with current ROE, and thinking about where every last round could end up. From that perspective, just one up the well, and a spare is a shit-load of ammo (to account for).
Then you have a military perspective, especially those brought up by old jungle hands. Here you are thinking in terms of a "free fire zone", and breaking contact with an enemy force. The legendary SOG teams were famous for the huge ammo load outs they carried. 400 rounds was not uncommon. So two opposite concepts. Depends on you and your sit, or what you think might be your sit. Interesting to note that most of you appear to be in some kind of urban sit. |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 9:09:56 AM EDT
[#13]
What's a sit?
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Posted: 6/11/2023 9:41:37 AM EDT
[#14]
This depends on your belt setup.
Weight kills belts…and your back. Old cops walk hunched over because of duty belts. If you are wearing LBE, that’s different… For a typical duty belt- 1 extended pistol mag, 1 rifle mag, med, radio, pistol, chem lights…and maybe a surefire. Anything else gets painful and slows me down when climbing or trying to get in and out of vehicles. |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 9:48:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's a sit? situation |
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Posted: 6/11/2023 11:03:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Over the years, there have been two general lines of reasoning. The LEO thinks in terms of current sits, and his own experience. That is with current ROE, and thinking about where every last round could end up. From that perspective, just one up the well, and a spare is a shit-load of ammo (to account for). Then you have a military perspective, especially those brought up by old jungle hands. Here you are thinking in terms of a "free fire zone", and breaking contact with an enemy force. The legendary SOG teams were famous for the huge ammo load outs they carried. 400 rounds was not uncommon. So two opposite concepts. Depends on you and your sit, or what you think might be your sit. Interesting to note that most of you appear to be in some kind of urban sit. That's why I like the ability to quickly change out my basic load. I can add two additional mags on my PC . So now I can go from 150 rd to 210 (Basic combat load). And if I need more, then I can add more to an assault pack. Or, I can ditch the PC and don my chest rig and still have 4 mags plus one on the belt and one in the gun, and loose 12 lbs. of plates. I grew up in the Post Vietnam/Cold war and watched how they slowly took us from unarmored and fairly mobile Light Infantry To heavily armored road bound Mech Infantry. I'm a firm believer that speed and mobility have its own protection. The use of DAPS, groin neck, shoulder and side plate armor were risk mitigation and not there to help win the fight. Now that I don't work for Uncle Sugar anymore, I get to call my level of force protection... 
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Posted: 6/11/2023 2:39:43 PM EDT
[#17]
I have a heavy (padded) belt that I have 2 on (so 3 with one in gun). Lighter belt has 1 kywi.
If I need more I can throw on a chest rig. Or, since someone mentioned Vietnam, a bandoleer with more. Not 20 rounders like this guy, but similar  |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 2:41:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Is that guy a Capt or did he get two Dear John letters?
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Posted: 6/12/2023 3:15:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Suggest the rifle platform/magazine/clip is pertinent.
For example, owners/users of "niche" rifles will need ammo carriage likely very much different than many other users, and perhaps carriage platforms to suit. M1 Garand and SKS owners take note. To some extent, users of 7.62/.308 rifles as well. |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 5:49:41 PM EDT
[#20]
0 if I’m carrying extra mags for serious stuff it’s on plates.
And 3, 40rd mags on the plate carrier and 2 on the rifle make for a decent amount of noise if needed. If I’m grabbing a rifle in the middle of the night good chance I won’t have pants/ belt so the 80 on the rifle is key. |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 8:54:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that guy a Capt or did he get two Dear John letters? I just found the pic on Bing because I wanted to show bandoleer -- that said, don't see a pistol on him, so jody probably did get to him. Plus Marines don't often put rank on headgear (we did for 6 months becuase of some stupid almar that came down in the 80s and was quickly recinded). Finally noticed all the AKs in that picture. Hmm. |
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Posted: 6/12/2023 11:41:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Two rifle, two pistol
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Posted: 6/13/2023 8:06:14 AM EDT
[#23]
I was just goofin. Looked like either two bars, or two girlfriend's names blocked out. Those are some real rice paddy daddies.
My old gunny said he got jacked up by some pogue about carrying an AK once. He said the former owner didn't need it any more. The guy shut up after that. Marines died in combat with the NVA, with cleaning rods up the bbls. I don't blame them. |
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Posted: 6/14/2023 8:51:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One for a quick reload. Keep the back of your belt clear. Why? Genuinely asking, no belt experience |
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Posted: 6/14/2023 9:12:07 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was just goofin. Looked like either two bars, or two girlfriend's names blocked out. Those are some real rice paddy daddies. My old gunny said he got jacked up by some pogue about carrying an AK once. He said the former owner didn't need it any more. The guy shut up after that. Marines died in combat with the NVA, with cleaning rods up the bbls. I don't blame them. Ah, didn't know you were in. Yeah, I get it, GF's name on helmet blacked out did look like Capt bars. Picture looks like it could be Khe Sanh. As one of my old Plt Sgts said, the dudes coming back from there were salty as fuck and wrecked. |
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Posted: 6/14/2023 10:11:17 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? Genuinely asking, no belt experience If there is any chance of falling backwards while wearing a battle belt, hard lumpy items in the small of your back can easily compound lower back injuries. Same for if you are going to be potentially rolling around on pavement grappling with someone; most cops don't carry much on the back of their patrol belts. |
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Posted: 6/14/2023 1:11:35 PM EDT
[#27]
I had a feeling at least part of it was something to do with vehicles. I had never considered the rest though, thanks for the input
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Posted: 6/15/2023 4:16:30 AM EDT
[#28]
I’m just a civ but I carry 3 pistol + 1 rifle on my belt. I use a double pistol kywi and a JSTA with kywi inserts. Imo the JSTA is perfect for this because it adds basically no bulk when empty but you can put up to 3 additional rifle mags in the pouch when you need to. Its also nice on the range for holding random shit like your phone and wallet, or a range finder and kestrel, or a shot timer.
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Posted: 6/15/2023 4:59:54 AM EDT
[#29]
2 for me.
YMMV. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 7:31:57 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good info, and yes, context is key. For me, a "belt kit" is not really my line-two fighting kit; it's part of my line-one gear (and mission dependent). I really only use the belt system as a home defense stand-alone, with a PC, or integrated with a chest harness system where both the PC and chest rig would likely have my actual "combat" load (mission dependent). A belt system is a great speed-reload system and that's what I use it for, and it's really a short-term option with an extra 30-60 rounds immediately available if I don't have my full kit on or handy. I like them for home defense and that's my primary purpose and how I train. If 60-90 rounds isn't enough to solve a home break-in, I somehow missed the Red Dawn foreign troops invasion. Much like the FOBBIT wars loadout, the belt kit is a good kit to wear around your home base doing work, feeding chickens, collecting water, burning trash, etc. However, it's enough to stop an immediate threat or enough to break contact and maneuver to cover and your actual line-two fighting gear. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v440/ROCK-6/Battle_Belts.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds" target="_blank">https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v440/ROCK-6/Battle_Belts.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds ROCK6 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you guys are in a mostly urban setting, and thinking of short-term, "active shooter" events, then maybe your 1-2 mag load outs will work. I get that. But you seem to discount any other scenario where you might be toting a rifle. Even however remote that possibility might be. Yes, I know that's still considered crazy talk in some quarters, but frankly I never thought I'd see the crazy at this point. Not to go all GD on ya, just saying some folks have different outlooks on these things. If that is of no concern to you, carry on. Good info, and yes, context is key. For me, a "belt kit" is not really my line-two fighting kit; it's part of my line-one gear (and mission dependent). I really only use the belt system as a home defense stand-alone, with a PC, or integrated with a chest harness system where both the PC and chest rig would likely have my actual "combat" load (mission dependent). A belt system is a great speed-reload system and that's what I use it for, and it's really a short-term option with an extra 30-60 rounds immediately available if I don't have my full kit on or handy. I like them for home defense and that's my primary purpose and how I train. If 60-90 rounds isn't enough to solve a home break-in, I somehow missed the Red Dawn foreign troops invasion. Much like the FOBBIT wars loadout, the belt kit is a good kit to wear around your home base doing work, feeding chickens, collecting water, burning trash, etc. However, it's enough to stop an immediate threat or enough to break contact and maneuver to cover and your actual line-two fighting gear. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v440/ROCK-6/Battle_Belts.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds" target="_blank">https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v440/ROCK-6/Battle_Belts.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds ROCK6 Holy shit Rock, I'm enlisting in your Army...You issue some cool gear!!! |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 5:02:21 PM EDT
[#32]
My belt is a bit of a "local riots"/class/range day belt, and I have two pistol mags and two rifle mags on it.
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Posted: 6/15/2023 10:52:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Some relatively small/thin rifle clips or small magazines might be better carried on the front of a vest (perhaps an FLC) as long as the front-carried pouches are counterbalanced by kit attached to the rear of the FLC/vest. It's about balancing the load.
Granted, using M1 Garand en bloc clips, SKS 10rd stripper clips, and Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle 10-rd mags is certainly a niche concern, but carrying a sufficient number of such items on one's belt may not be practical nowadays, since other/better alternatives are now available. I've been investigating such alternatives, and will report when they are finalized. |
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Posted: 6/15/2023 11:56:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some relatively small/thin rifle clips or small magazines might be better carried on the front of a vest (perhaps an FLC) as long as the front-carried pouches are counterbalanced by kit attached to the rear of the FLC/vest. It's about balancing the load. Granted, using M1 Garand en bloc clips, SKS 10rd stripper clips, and Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle 10-rd mags is certainly a niche concern, but carrying a sufficient number of such items on one's belt may not be practical nowadays, since other/better alternatives are now available. I've been investigating such alternatives, and will report when they are finalized. Beyond the 4 on my belt I'll grab bandoliers  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 12:21:30 AM EDT
[#35]
Is the Garand an actual SHTF rifle still? What is this, the 60's and 70's here?
I'm with the others that a belt can be configured to serve as both 1st line and then stripped to support 2nd line to make the PC's easier to wear with comfort along with. I strip the two vertical rifle mags and add one to the formerly stripped horizontal, and take that extra mag and put it on it's second home on the PC that was an empty spot waiting for it. No interferences at all if made to be mission adapting. |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 12:38:05 AM EDT
[#36]
People not to stop with the mindset that everything is a Line based system. The system itself isn't even clearly defined.
You could A-be able to accomplish the mission with only the 1st line while the 2nd and 3rd simply add on capabilities (think police) B-1st is you, 2nd is mission, 3rd is sustainment (think conventional military) C-the entire loadout is one congruent system relying on each other to be complete (more SF style) If you are only planning on rocking a belt then you best have enough mags on it to go around. On the other hand if you will 100% be wearing this belt with a pc then spreading love is the best way. |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 8:17:19 AM EDT
[#37]
For me the Belt is primary a Tool to that holds the Pistol and Holster. Everything else is extra as weight, comfort and space permits.
2 Handgun + 1 Rifle has become "the standard" for a reason. It balances the weight neatly with a pistol on the other Side, it does not protrude into my back. |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 11:48:16 AM EDT
[#38]
All kit should compliment the body of the person wearing it.
The kit adapts to you, not you to the kit. So, you wear the pouches and items that compliment your ability to athletically perform to the best of your ability while meeting your mission requirements. Your athletic performance is what will bring you victory more times than any other factor. This has been proven correct throughout history on the battlefield. Configure your kit, if something hinders than re-evaluate and discard it. There are enough options available now that everyone should be able to configure kit that enhances rather than hinders their capability, especially civilians with the freedom to basically do whatever they want. For example, for me magazine pouches and the 30 round AR mags inserted were interfering with my plate carrier when I would do extreme bends sides to sides, that was unacceptable. As a consequence, I use pistol magazines on my belt from Esstac that place the pistol mags at a 45 degree angle, a horizontal AR Esstac magazine pouch, and an unobtanium drop sled AR pouch and now, other than the sensation of weight on my belt, I can barely tell those magazines are there when I move. |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 1:55:24 PM EDT
[#39]
I made the point earlier about keeping the back of your belt clear so you could get in and out of vehicles.
I would also like to point out that and bulky/hard things that are in the small of your back will exacerbate injuries if you end up landing on your back. |
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Posted: 6/16/2023 2:03:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Three on the plate carrier, one on the belt. I have a dainty waist.
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Posted: 6/17/2023 1:25:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the Garand an actual SHTF rifle still? What is this, the 60's and 70's here? I'm with the others that a belt can be configured to serve as both 1st line and then stripped to support 2nd line to make the PC's easier to wear with comfort along with. I strip the two vertical rifle mags and add one to the formerly stripped horizontal, and take that extra mag and put it on it's second home on the PC that was an empty spot waiting for it. No interferences at all if made to be mission adapting. Would I choose an M1 Garand as a SHTF rifle? Perhaps not, as I have a number of alternatives. OTOH, "rigging-out" a reasonably useful platform for Garand ammo carriage, which was the point of my above post, gives an additional option. A .30-'06 Garand, suitably modded, and firing "Black-Tipped" AP ammo might be useful against folks wearing most types of body armor. I'm sure you will agree that's it's nice to have choices. @ArizonaRifleman @03RN |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 2:22:47 PM EDT
[#42]
It is indeed to nice have choices.
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Posted: 6/17/2023 2:27:15 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 6/17/2023 3:12:18 PM EDT
[#44]
I think we all understand one another. 'Nuff said.
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Posted: 6/17/2023 8:14:23 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you are only planning on rocking a belt then you best have enough mags on it to go around. On the other hand if you will 100% be wearing this belt with a pc then spreading love is the best way. See, I don't know what my possible situations will be and can't say anything is 100%. My belt gives me minimums to sustain both pistol or rifle for a low threat/mimimal contact environment - because I could be in a situation where I have one firearm, the other or both. So I have two pistol and one rifle magazines. This can be grabbed and put on in a hurry or if I need to keep myself as low profile as possible while still being able to succeed in a limited engagement. The plate carrier provides that level of additional protection that PCs provide - so I am anticipating things taking a turn South. If I need it to remain relatively trim/covert, I can put spare pistol and/or rifle mags in the cummerbund to a maximum of four. In this low profile mode it will likely only be one or two additional magazines. If I'm looking at a zombie apocalypse then the placard goes on the front to provide me with easy access to three rifle or four pistol magazines (the latter if running a PCC) that can be easily re-indexed. I don't know if this is a sound strategy or not but it made sense to me. |
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