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Posted: 7/24/2020 6:30:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2020 10:00:23 PM EST by GLD1980]
I have read that this happens. I wanted to hear your stories and know what has worked for you.

Thanks!

My story below



I bought the best inexpensive optic in my budget to test this out and not suffer a huge loss. I wanted a no feature, no rubber buttons, very basic but good optic. I selected the SIG Romeo MSR, and after only 210rds, some rapidly fired, the gun and the barrel were extremely hot. I burnt my fingers causing a few small blisters adjusting my brightness after rapidly firing an X-14 Drum. Although I didn't take a temperature the optic survived and the zero held. The heat transfer seemed to be well beyond the operating threshold of most red dots in the industry. I want to purchase a more expensive red dot but is it really even needed? I feel I am on borrowed time with the SIG Romeo MSR but thus far very impressed.

Link Posted: 7/24/2020 9:19:01 PM EST
I have a Primary Arms MD-06 (several years old) that has held up just fine on an Ultimak railed gas tube on my MAK 90. Several thousand rounds fired including a 75 round medium paced drum mag dump. No problems at all.

Not the same thing as your set up OP, but not too far off.
Link Posted: 7/24/2020 9:57:33 PM EST
My Socom 16 killed a 10+ year old eotech.
Link Posted: 7/25/2020 9:21:50 AM EST
Mine beat up a Burris 2.75X.  Think something was rattling inside it, although it still held zero.  Burris took two trips to fix it under warranty.  She's back to original Bush rifle these days.

Paladin
Link Posted: 7/26/2020 12:59:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/26/2020 12:59:36 PM EST by tsg68]
Never had a problem but then I only used optics that ring mount. Any optic with an integral mount or riser base is going to act like a heat sink and draw excess heat up to the optic itself. A ring mount is going to limit the amount of heat transferred to the optic and also allow faster dissipation before it reaches the optic. Airflow created around the optic by the offset of a ring mount helps greatly too.
Link Posted: 7/27/2020 8:03:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/28/2020 11:19:03 AM EST by raf]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tsg68:
Never had a problem but then I only used optics that ring mount. Any optic with an integral mount or riser base is going to act like a heat sink and draw excess heat up to the optic itself. A ring mount is going to limit the amount of heat transferred to the optic and also allow faster dissipation before it reaches the optic. Airflow created around the optic by the offset of a ring mount helps greatly too.
View Quote
Ditto.  I believe there is a significant difference in the heat transferred to a given optic between a picatinny rail attached through its' entire length to the barrel, and the Ultimak rail which attaches via smaller (but still effective) clamps.

Given enough rounds, fired fast enough, both mounts are going to heat up, but I'm guessing that the Ultimak rail will take longer to do so.  Mounting a scout scope, via rings, to the Ultimak rail adds some insulating "distance" between the optic and the rail.  Reduced amount of metal-to-metal contact means reduced/retarded thermal conductivity through the metal.

Worst-case scenario is mounting an electronic red-dot directly to the OEM barrel rail, shooting a lot of rounds quickly, and having the heat croak the electronics of the red-dot.  All the above is just guesswork, but I think it's worth thinking about.  
Link Posted: 8/1/2020 4:50:20 AM EST
Thank you all for the feedback. I appreciate it.
Link Posted: 8/1/2020 12:32:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/7/2020 4:18:44 PM EST by raf]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GLD1980:
Thank you all for the feedback. I appreciate it.
View Quote
Having mounted an Ultimak Scout mount on both an M1 and an M1A, I have a suggestion.  Like many suggestions, it will cost you money, but is likely to solve your problem.

1) If possible, remove the current Pic-rail on your barrel, and "fill-in" the screw holes with some threaded plugs.  In the possible event the OEM rail is not removable, then use optics with some sort of mount which minimizes metal-to-metal contact between the OEM pic rail and the optic.  A "claw" H+K optics mount is an example of such.  Assuming the OEM Pic-rail is removable, then:

2) Buy an Ultimak scout rail, and install it.

Given the presumed reduction of conductive heat transfer of the Ultimak rail versus the OEM Pic-rail, this should greatly reduce the heat absorbed by your optics, and maybe save you some $ spent on optics in the long run.  This will also  get the optics a bit lower down, and the optics being as low as possible is vital in obtaining a good, natural cheek weld.  Might still need a thin cheek riser, depending on optics chosen, but there are QD strap-on versions.  To reduce radiant heat transfer, paint the inside of the Ultimak with some white heat-resistant paint like engine block paint, or exhaust header paint, the latter withstanding higher temps, and being more expensive.

Reducing convective heat transfer could be done by drilling some vent holes in the sides of the Ultimak, but doing so is likely to weaken the mount, and will almost certainly void your warranty, so I advise against doing so.

ETA: after some consultation, No credible info on Ultimak scout scope mounts frying electronic optics.

@GLD1980
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 4:14:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2020 4:14:57 PM EST by spartacus2002]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:
Mine beat up a Burris 2.75X.  Think something was rattling inside it, although it still held zero.  Burris took two trips to fix it under warranty.  She's back to original Bush rifle these days.

Paladin
View Quote

my standard M1A broke the crosshairs on a Burris 2.75x.
Link Posted: 8/10/2020 6:23:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By raf:
Having mounted an Ultimak Scout mount on both an M1 and an M1A, I have a suggestion.  Like many suggestions, it will cost you money, but is likely to solve your problem.

1) If possible, remove the current Pic-rail on your barrel, and "fill-in" the screw holes with some threaded plugs.  In the possible event the OEM rail is not removable, then use optics with some sort of mount which minimizes metal-to-metal contact between the OEM pic rail and the optic.  A "claw" H+K optics mount is an example of such.  Assuming the OEM Pic-rail is removable, then:

2) Buy an Ultimak scout rail, and install it.

Given the presumed reduction of conductive heat transfer of the Ultimak rail versus the OEM Pic-rail, this should greatly reduce the heat absorbed by your optics, and maybe save you some $ spent on optics in the long run.  This will also  get the optics a bit lower down, and the optics being as low as possible is vital in obtaining a good, natural cheek weld.  Might still need a thin cheek riser, depending on optics chosen, but there are QD strap-on versions.  To reduce radiant heat transfer, paint the inside of the Ultimak with some white heat-resistant paint like engine block paint, or exhaust header paint, the latter withstanding higher temps, and being more expensive.

Reducing convective heat transfer could be done by drilling some vent holes in the sides of the Ultimak, but doing so is likely to weaken the mount, and will almost certainly void your warranty, so I advise against doing so.

ETA: after some consultation, No credible info on Ultimak scout scope mounts frying electronic optics.

@GLD1980
View Quote

Thanks for the help. I'm saving for a Blackfeather RS chassis. I am going to buy the Scout Hand Guardfirst and build from there.
Link Posted: 8/11/2020 6:30:44 AM EST
I've read, a few times, over the years that the M1A is hard on scopes.  Some people have had to send pretty expensive scopes back for repairs/replacement only to have to do it again later when that scope broke.

Someone, on the M14 Forum wrote that M1As (and maybe M1 Garands) are harder on scopes because of the forward impact when the op rod stops when the round is chambered by the bolt.  They said some models of air rifles inflict similar damage on scopes and there are scopes made especially to resist such damage from that type of forward movement/impact.

I've used an old Bushnell (one of the Bausch and Lomb make scopes) on my M1A for a little over 40 years and it's still going strong.

My M1 Garand with an Amega Ranges Scout Scope mount and cheap pistol scope has held up fine.  Not sure how hot it gets at one of the field shoots at Ramseur, NC but it's my favorite rifle for those pop up target games.  No issues with that cheap pistol scope.

Lastly, a .308 gets way hotter than a .223 for the same number of rounds.  Checked them more than once at RBCs at Ramseur with a non-contact temp. measuring device.

Oh, how many rounds do you carry in your belt/vest ammo pouches?  Enough to damage your optic?  Not many of us will ever run a couple hundred rounds through an M1A/M1 Garand in such a short time span.
Link Posted: 8/11/2020 8:10:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/11/2020 8:10:57 AM EST by spartacus2002]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
I've read, a few times, over the years that the M1A is hard on scopes.  Some people have had to send pretty expensive scopes back for repairs/replacement only to have to do it again later when that scope broke.
View Quote

all scopes, or just scout-mounted scopes?
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 12:51:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:

all scopes, or just scout-mounted scopes?
View Quote


Great question. Any takers for an answer. I too am curious.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 1:09:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Someone, on the M14 Forum wrote that M1As (and maybe M1 Garands) are harder on scopes because of the forward impact when the op rod stops when the round is chambered by the bolt.  They said some models of air rifles inflict similar damage on scopes and there are scopes made especially to resist such damage from that type of forward movement/impact.
View Quote


I wonder how much of it is from the back of the oprod slamming into the front of the receiver with no buffer in between to absorb that shock.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 2:15:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2020 2:17:36 PM EST by tsg68]
When mounting scopes on M14 types I’ve always heard that you push front ring forward to mitigate recoil and rear ring rearward to mitigate bolt/oprod return impulse when locking rings down.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 5:55:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2020 8:16:31 AM EST by raf]
Experienced users of Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles often use Wilson 1911 buffers.  Some use them at the front, some at the rear.  Some, both locations.  Depends on the particular Mini, as they can be different.  100% functionality is essential.  The reason for the forward mounted shock=buffer is to reduce the slamming of the op-rod against the gas block, which shock is at least as great as the shock of the op-rod striking the receiver during recoil.  Pre-Ranch Model Minis never had any sort of OEM buffer.  Ranch Model Minis and Mini-30 rifles had a metallic "buffer" which (apparently) does little to reduce shock.  Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles made with integral scope ring mount cut-outs should have such metallic OEM "buffers".

Users of such buffers report a perception of reduced recoil impulse.  To be fair, many experienced users of the Mini-14/Mini-30 platforms have replaced the original gas "orifice" with a smaller one, thus injecting less force into the system.  The shock buffers are a final step.  https://www.ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/Gas-Reduction-Bushing-Kit.php

As to M1 and M1A rifles, perhaps this "hard on optics" issue is a point in favor on installing an adjustable gas plug, as the user can vent gas that would otherwise be kept in the system, and so making the action un-necessarily violent.  

Both gas orifice replacement and shock buff treatments on the various model Minis have revealed that there is almost never any damage done to quality optics as regards the Mini-14/mini-30 platforms.  The specific placement of the optics (convention vs. Scout) is not relevant.  A point to be made is that Ruger Ranch-type Mini-14s have a built-in buffer that the older, Standard mini-14s lacked.  No info on Mini-30 rifles older vice newer, nor modern Ruger Mini-14 rifles.  I'll look into it.    

Might be possible to rig similar buffers, out of suitable material, for other rifles.  Viton material at the least, IMHO, and possibly better, more heat-resistant materials are available.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 6:28:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By GLD1980:
I have read that this happens. I wanted to hear your stories and know what has worked for you.

Thanks!

My story below

https://i.imgur.com/jaGBP90.jpg

I bought the best inexpensive optic in my budget to test this out and not suffer a huge loss. I wanted a no feature, no rubber buttons, very basic but good optic. I selected the SIG Romeo MSR, and after only 210rds, some rapidly fired, the gun and the barrel were extremely hot. I burnt my fingers causing a few small blisters adjusting my brightness after rapidly firing an X-14 Drum. Although I didn't take a temperature the optic survived and the zero held. The heat transfer seemed to be well beyond the operating threshold of most red dots in the industry. I want to purchase a more expensive red dot but is it really even needed? I feel I am on borrowed time with the SIG Romeo MSR but thus far very impressed.
https://i.imgur.com/rbe8QC6.jpg
View Quote


I have the 18" version of that rifle and spent about 3 years shooting it in 3 gun matches, most of which was with an optic.  In those 3 years, I replaced the optic 5 times.  I started with the $20 chinese crap mini red dot that lasted about 3/4 of a match.  Then I moved "UP" to the $50-75 variety and it lasted a match and a half.  Next I got a Bushnell TRS25, and it lasted most of the rest of that season, but shorted out during a rainy match.  Then I stepped up to a Vortex.  It lasted almost the whole next year, then Vortex took care of me and replaced it.  They told me that "the insides looked cooked."  The replacement survived the entire next year, then matches stopped offering heavy divisions, so I stopped shooting the M1A...
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 7:25:03 PM EST

Have not killed this one yet but I don’t have many rounds through it since I mounted it.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 7:31:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 7:32:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 7:44:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2020 7:55:46 PM EST by raf]
I think what is happening in this thread is that some Users are reporting various optics failing for different (or unknown) reasons as regards different platforms.  As usual, the folks with optics that have never suffered a failure are not responding.  Probably the majority of optics users.  IOW, no need to post, because nothing to bitch about.

In other words, we don't have a focused discussion, and so are not able to narrow-down the problem.

We can't even get a grip on whether optics failure is due to cheesy optics Quality, Heat, or Shock.

I think it might be better to ask about such optics-related issues within Forums devoted to a specific platform for better-focused answers.

Not trying to short-circuit the discussion, but suggesting possibly better forums in which to get better answers.

For example, I know that the Mini-14/Mini-30 folks at https://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/ have had all this sorted-out for quite a while.  Perhaps folks on other platform-specific forums have done the same.

No sense re-inventing the wheel.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 8:00:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:


EDPM or Urethane would be better than Viton.  Viton has good chemical resistance but mediocre mechanical durability.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Originally Posted By raf:
Experienced users of Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles often use Wilson 1911 buffers.  Some use them at the front, some at the rear.  Some, both locations.  Depends on the particular Mini, as they can be different.  100% functionality is essential.

Users of such buffers report a perception of reduced recoil impulse.  To be fair, many experienced users of the Mini-14/Mini-30 platforms have replaced the original gas "orifice" with a smaller one, thus injecting less force into the system.  The shock buffers are a final step.  https://www.ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/Gas-Reduction-Bushing-Kit.php

As to M1 and M1A rifles, perhaps this "hard on optics" issue is a point in favor on installing an adjustable gas plug, as the user can vent gas that would otherwise be kept in the system, and so making the action un-necessarily violent.  

Both gas orifice replacement and shock buff treatments on the various model Minis have revealed that there is almost never any damage done to quality optics as regards the Mini-14/mini-30 platforms.  The specific placement of the optics (convention vs. Scout) is not relevant.  A point to be made is that Ruger Ranch-type Mini-14s have a built-in buffer that the older, Standard mini-14s lacked.  No info on Mini-30 rifles older vice newer, nor modern Ruger Mini-14 rifles.  I'll look into it.    

Might be possible to rig similar buffers, out of suitable material, for other rifles.  Viton material at the least, IMHO, and possibly better, more heat-resistant materials are available.


EDPM or Urethane would be better than Viton.  Viton has good chemical resistance but mediocre mechanical durability.
Still looking into ideal buffer material.  Temp resistance is also a factor.  It's a balancing act, and some platforms will "like' a certain material, while others require a different material for various reasons.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 8:02:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
You could buy sheets of EDPM of various thicknesses off of McMaster Carr and the punch to cut the hole for the recoil spring guide.
View Quote
Buying sheets of the correct material is the ultimate goal, of course.
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 11:47:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2020 11:47:41 PM EST by tsg68]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By raf:
Experienced users of Mini-14 and Mini-30 rifles often use Wilson 1911 buffers.  Some use them at the front, some at the rear.  Some, both locations.  Depends on the particular Mini, as they can be different.  100% functionality is essential.

Users of such buffers report a perception of reduced recoil impulse.  To be fair, many experienced users of the Mini-14/Mini-30 platforms have replaced the original gas "orifice" with a smaller one, thus injecting less force into the system.  The shock buffers are a final step.  https://www.ruger-mini-14-firearms.com/Gas-Reduction-Bushing-Kit.php

As to M1 and M1A rifles, perhaps this "hard on optics" issue is a point in favor on installing an adjustable gas plug, as the user can vent gas that would otherwise be kept in the system, and so making the action un-necessarily violent.  

Both gas orifice replacement and shock buff treatments on the various model Minis have revealed that there is almost never any damage done to quality optics as regards the Mini-14/mini-30 platforms.  The specific placement of the optics (convention vs. Scout) is not relevant.  A point to be made is that Ruger Ranch-type Mini-14s have a built-in buffer that the older, Standard mini-14s lacked.  No info on Mini-30 rifles older vice newer, nor modern Ruger Mini-14 rifles.  I'll look into it.    

Might be possible to rig similar buffers, out of suitable material, for other rifles.  Viton material at the least, IMHO, and possibly better, more heat-resistant materials are available.
View Quote



Buffer Technologies sells an M14 specific polyurethane buffer. I tried it, it didn’t do much and didn’t last 100 rounds before falling apart and impeding function, haven’t used one since.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1017848215
Link Posted: 10/20/2020 12:16:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2020 12:17:21 AM EST by Getnlwr]
Never had a problem with mine. It wore a 2x aimpoint for a while as well as a vortex scout scope.

It’s currently naked now and has a Docter Optics red dot on the oem socom CQB Mount.
Link Posted: 10/20/2020 4:36:26 PM EST
Anyone ever see how hot there scout mount equipped barrel got during rapid firing? I shot 50rds rapid fire from an X-products drum after shooting 160rds through 20rd mags with little break, the optic was untouchable. Still didn't fry it and I would guesstimate the barrel was around 500F or greater. Far exceeding specs on my budget optic.

@71jeepcj6
Your mount is perfect, what is it. Probably saves the optic from being fried. Is your MRO the HD? I have heard mixed reviews on the non HD. How do you like it?
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 6:25:21 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
I've read, a few times, over the years that the M1A is hard on scopes.  Some people have had to send pretty expensive scopes back for repairs/replacement only to have to do it again later when that scope broke.

Someone, on the M14 Forum wrote that M1As (and maybe M1 Garands) are harder on scopes because of the forward impact when the op rod stops when the round is chambered by the bolt.  They said some models of air rifles inflict similar damage on scopes and there are scopes made especially to resist such damage from that type of forward movement/impact.

I've used an old Bushnell (one of the Bausch and Lomb make scopes) on my M1A for a little over 40 years and it's still going strong.

My M1 Garand with an Amega Ranges Scout Scope mount and cheap pistol scope has held up fine.  Not sure how hot it gets at one of the field shoots at Ramseur, NC but it's my favorite rifle for those pop up target games.  No issues with that cheap pistol scope.

Lastly, a .308 gets way hotter than a .223 for the same number of rounds.  Checked them more than once at RBCs at Ramseur with a non-contact temp. measuring device.

Oh, how many rounds do you carry in your belt/vest ammo pouches?  Enough to damage your optic?  Not many of us will ever run a couple hundred rounds through an M1A/M1 Garand in such a short time span.
View Quote

This is why I removed my Steiner from my Supermatch and it now wears a PA 4-14.
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 4:35:30 PM EST
I roasted an EOtech on mine back in the days of cheap South African .308. EOtech replaced it and I ditched the scout mount.
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 11:30:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2020 11:34:43 PM EST by 71jeepcj6]
Standard MRO on a Midwest industries mount that is mounted backwards.  Me and a buddy milled a little be off the mount so we could mount the MRO backward.  Yes I really like it so far.

Link Posted: 12/30/2020 7:34:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
I've read, a few times, over the years that the M1A is hard on scopes.  Some people have had to send pretty expensive scopes back for repairs/replacement only to have to do it again later when that scope broke.

Someone, on the M14 Forum wrote that M1As (and maybe M1 Garands) are harder on scopes because of the forward impact when the op rod stops when the round is chambered by the bolt.  They said some models of air rifles inflict similar damage on scopes and there are scopes made especially to resist such damage from that type of forward movement/impact.

I've used an old Bushnell (one of the Bausch and Lomb make scopes) on my M1A for a little over 40 years and it's still going strong.

My M1 Garand with an Amega Ranges Scout Scope mount and cheap pistol scope has held up fine.  Not sure how hot it gets at one of the field shoots at Ramseur, NC but it's my favorite rifle for those pop up target games.  No issues with that cheap pistol scope.

Lastly, a .308 gets way hotter than a .223 for the same number of rounds.  Checked them more than once at RBCs at Ramseur with a non-contact temp. measuring device.

Oh, how many rounds do you carry in your belt/vest ammo pouches?  Enough to damage your optic?  Not many of us will ever run a couple hundred rounds through an M1A/M1 Garand in such a short time span.
View Quote


I've used several of the Simmons ProHunter 2x20 pistol scopes on different rifles over the years and never had a problem  Unfortunately, that one is discontinued.   I suspect the recoil from a .44mag revolver is harder on a scope than almost any rifle.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 10:28:24 PM EST
I've had an Aimpoint ML2 mounted on my Scout rifle since 2003 with no issues. Unknown round count but burned through multiple cans / crates of Port and S.A. surplus back when it was cheap and probably 1k rds of ZQI ammo bought when WM closed out on it. I dont do " mag dumps" though so it never got THAT hot but no issues at all

Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 12/31/2020 6:35:52 PM EST
I've shot maybe 300 rounds from my M1A SOCOM, which has a Sig Romeo 5 on the front rail, mounted via a low profile QR lever mount.

It does get hot from being right on the barrel, but no issues so far with the sight.  Nice combo as well.
Link Posted: 1/3/2021 11:19:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2021 10:22:27 PM EST by GLD1980]
I removed my M1A's Sccout mount, switched to the SAI 4th Gen Aluminum Scope Mount and took off the red dot. I added the VLTOR M1-S and a Nikon M-TACTICAL 1-4x24 Mk1-MOA LVPO.
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