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Posted: 9/19/2021 7:50:00 PM EDT
Tried to work up to sierras max load with the 69gr smk and varget in 223.
First group on 25.3, the brass looked fine. Second group of 25.6:   Last group was 25.9. Took one shot and then stopped. 
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Posted: 9/19/2021 8:10:25 PM EDT
[#1]
You were wise to stop when you did
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Posted: 9/19/2021 8:45:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You were wise to stop when you did I agree. Just for the sake of curiosity, what brand/type of primers? |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 8:48:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Some brands and types of primers are softer or harder so I don't base all my actions on the looks of the primers but yeah , something is going on here.
Commercial brass? military brass? loading up military with a load developed in commercial brass can get alarming results due to different internal volume |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 8:48:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. Just for the sake of curiosity, what brand/type of primers? CCI 41. Honestly they seem soft, which is the opposite of what I thought. |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 8:58:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some brands and types of primers are softer or harder so I don't base all my actions on the looks of the primers but yeah , something is going on here. Commercial brass? military brass? loading up military with a load developed in commercial brass can get alarming results due to different internal volume Once fired LC Brass, CCI 41, 2.260 OAL |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:01:31 PM EDT
[#6]
My favorite load with same brass , bullet and primer is 26 grains 2.26oal. Works very well in all my uppers, 3000 fps in a 20" barrel. What is your OAL?
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:09:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My favorite load with same brass , bullet and primer is 26 grains 2.26oal. Works very well in all my uppers, 3000 fps in a 20" barrel. What is your OAL? 2.260. I’ve noticed that with the CCI 41s, they dent sometimes when I seat the primers. This is with non-crimped primer pockets. I’ll try to get some pics. |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:14:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Of course *I* know what you're talking about in that last picture, but just in case a new inexperienced reloader wanders into the thread, maybe one of you should explain what you're talking about.
 (Seriously what are we looking at? I'm still learning and CCI 41s are one of only two bricks of primers I have) |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:15:54 PM EDT
[#9]
What is the published max load?
I'd probably not load them that hot (reasoning?), but I don't think you're past max yet, but you'd know your rifle better than anyone. The primers are flattened, but not completely, there is still some rounding and it hasn't flowed to take the shape of the primer pocket yet, and there is no cratering/piercing around the firing pin. That said you're awfully close, or at, max load in my opinion. What is your COAL? |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:34:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course *I* know what you're talking about in that last picture, but just in case a new inexperienced reloader wanders into the thread, maybe one of you should explain what you're talking about. (Seriously what are we looking at? I'm still learning and CCI 41s are one of only two bricks of primers I have) I don’t reload yet but I’m pretty sure the OP is talking about primer strikes being a little or a lot deep. I recently had something similar but I think the round was slightly out of battery. Recent range failure pic and the gun was running fine.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:46:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course *I* know what you're talking about in that last picture, but just in case a new inexperienced reloader wanders into the thread, maybe one of you should explain what you're talking about. (Seriously what are we looking at? I'm still learning and CCI 41s are one of only two bricks of primers I have) The primer is completely flattened out nearly all the way up to the edge of the primer pocket. Compare the edge of the primer in the last pic to the first pic, you’ll see the first pic primers still have a decent rounded edge to them. Flattened primers are one sign (of many) of excessive pressure. Some of those cases appear to have some extractor flow as well, but gas guns can be a bit more finicky with showing those signs as other factors can contribute or outright cause it. |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:47:21 PM EDT
[#12]
I’d try seating 2.250 and see if pressure decreases, other then that the flattening looks fine and I’m seeing no swipes, firing pin strike looks deep though, what does your firing pin look like? What bcg?
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Posted: 9/19/2021 10:14:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t reload yet but I’m pretty sure the OP is talking about primer strikes being a little or a lot deep. I recently had something similar but I think the round was slightly out of battery. Recent range failure pic and the gun was running fine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/94465/89492B63-64E4-4720-B038-C05F4A4B4CE5_jpe-2097646.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/94465/71317CF9-78BE-4131-BD79-6F366911C206_jpe-2097653.JPG I’m talking about the primers being flattened. But primer cratering is also a sign of pressure. |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 10:57:18 PM EDT
[#14]
My standard accuracy load for 69 grain SMK's in Lake City brass is 24.5 grains of Varget. I have used Remington 7.5's, CCI-BR4's and Russian kvb-5,56m primers with excellent accuracy.
It runs 2750 fps +/- from a 20" barrel which is a known accuracy window. The same ammo only does 2550 from my 16" Colt and still shoots under 1 moa. I have zero interest in velocity, especially on the ragged edge of safety. A 69 grain SMK traveling at 3000 fps from a 20" barrel is over 5.56mm pressures and will likely cause premature wear, possibly damage to a rifle. What is the need for speed? |
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Posted: 9/19/2021 11:40:31 PM EDT
[#15]
In my 223 Wylde chambered 20" service rifle varget load is 25.2gr under a 77gr smk (this is a good load in my rifle but I worked up to it) I know different bullet but anyway I could have sworn cci41s were silver colored or am I just remembering wrong? (I've been mainly using up my rem 7 1/2 lately which are brass colored as are win srp) Anyway while they are flattening I personally am ok with brass like that out of my rifle, still has rounded edges. It gets more spooky to me when a primer looks like butter spread on toast and I see heavy ejector swipes on the brass (ar15). Just remember primer flattening is one of a handful of signs of pressure and is not an exact science as every rifle is different. I never give anyone a hard time for being conservative as it's your face not mine.
edit to add, I think the silver cci primers I'm thinking of are 400's or 450's. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 2:31:55 AM EDT
[#16]
Looks more due to headspace clearance.
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Posted: 9/20/2021 9:38:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks more due to headspace clearance. Could you explain this? This never happened on factory ammo or other handloads. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 10:53:55 AM EDT
[#18]
This is what’s im talking about with these primers feeling soft. Again, this is new LC brass with no crimp and I’m not using excessive force when seating the primers. You can see slight deformation where to primer rod contacts the primer when seating.
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Posted: 9/20/2021 11:01:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My favorite load with same brass , bullet and primer is 26 grains 2.26oal. Works very well in all my uppers, 3000 fps in a 20" barrel. What is your OAL? I shoot 25.9 Varget, CCI41 or WolfSRM, 69SMK, 2.255" COAL, and this shoots very well in everything. Never seen a primer flattening like yours in that load, very interesting. What barrel? |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 11:04:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t reload yet but I’m pretty sure the OP is talking about primer strikes being a little or a lot deep. I recently had something similar but I think the round was slightly out of battery. Recent range failure pic and the gun was running fine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/94465/89492B63-64E4-4720-B038-C05F4A4B4CE5_jpe-2097646.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/94465/71317CF9-78BE-4131-BD79-6F366911C206_jpe-2097653.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Of course *I* know what you're talking about in that last picture, but just in case a new inexperienced reloader wanders into the thread, maybe one of you should explain what you're talking about. (Seriously what are we looking at? I'm still learning and CCI 41s are one of only two bricks of primers I have) I don’t reload yet but I’m pretty sure the OP is talking about primer strikes being a little or a lot deep. I recently had something similar but I think the round was slightly out of battery. Recent range failure pic and the gun was running fine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/94465/89492B63-64E4-4720-B038-C05F4A4B4CE5_jpe-2097646.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/94465/71317CF9-78BE-4131-BD79-6F366911C206_jpe-2097653.JPG Not OOB. That's a case failure. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 11:13:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Hodgdon has Varget data listing 26gr as max which is a compressed load, you may need a drop tube to settle the powder. Win case and Win SR
I am of the belief the magic envelope for varget with 69 SMK is +/- 0.3gr off of 25.0gr @ magazine length. Depending on the gun barrel of course I have shot out WOA service rifle prepped upper, Rem 700 PSS 1/8 twist, several DPMS factory heavy bbl uppers, Colt 6920, CZ 527 from 1-9 to 1-7 twist |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 11:37:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shoot 25.9 Varget, CCI41 or WolfSRM, 69SMK, 2.255" COAL, and this shoots very well in everything. Never seen a primer flattening like yours in that load, very interesting. What barrel? Ballistic advantage 223 wylde |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 11:38:52 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ballistic advantage 223 wylde You never responded with your COAL. A lot of reloading recipes are shorter than mag length. Most load to mag length in my experience, which reduces pressure. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 11:44:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodgdon has Varget data listing 26gr as max which is a compressed load, you may need a drop tube to settle the powder. Win case and Win SR I am of the belief the magic envelope for varget with 69 SMK is +/- 0.3gr off of 25.0gr @ magazine length. Depending on the gun barrel of course I have shot out WOA service rifle prepped upper, Rem 700 PSS 1/8 twist, several DPMS factory heavy bbl uppers, Colt 6920, CZ 527 from 1-9 to 1-7 twist My gun really liked 25.6gr. Shot just over 0.5” at 70 yards with 4x scope. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 12:07:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You never responded with your COAL. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ballistic advantage 223 wylde You never responded with your COAL. He did - above. Quoted: Once fired LC Brass, CCI 41, 2.260 OAL |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 12:23:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodgdon has Varget data listing 26gr as max which is a compressed load, you may need a drop tube to settle the powder. Win case and Win SR I am of the belief the magic envelope for varget with 69 SMK is +/- 0.3gr off of 25.0gr @ magazine length. Depending on the gun barrel of course I have shot out WOA service rifle prepped upper, Rem 700 PSS 1/8 twist, several DPMS factory heavy bbl uppers, Colt 6920, CZ 527 from 1-9 to 1-7 twist I my experience the low end works better in .223 Wylde chambers, the high end better in 5.56mm NATO. I use 2.250" OAL. |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 1:27:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He did - above. Thanks. I overlooked that. 
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Posted: 9/20/2021 1:37:41 PM EDT
[#28]
I think I may try 25.3/25.6 with WSR primers as well.
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Posted: 9/20/2021 7:39:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could you explain this? This never happened on factory ammo or other handloads. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Looks more due to headspace clearance. Could you explain this? This never happened on factory ammo or other handloads. I’m genuinely curious how that can be told from the pictures too? I “try” to read my primers as much as everyone else but sometimes it seems like they flatten well before they “should” Never had ejector smears or any brass issues when loading 223/ 5.56. But i live with some flat primers on the loads i need to go fast. (Sbr hunting ammo) |
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Posted: 9/20/2021 10:15:47 PM EDT
[#30]
With any given primer brand, the more pressure inside the case, the more the primer cup will flatten out. Depending on how hard and tough the cup is, seeing how flat the primer looks after firing can tell a lot about the internal ballistics of that particular load. But different primer makers' primer cups can be as different as night and day from each other, so you cannot compare a load with a CCI primer to "the same load" with a Federal primer.
Flattened out isn't necessarily "bad." But if the primer cup flows to fill out the radius of the primer pocket, that IS a problem. Also, if the firing pin indentation "craters", with a raised rim around it, that's very bad. However, it is impossible to accurately "read" anything beyond "that's ok" or "that's too hot" from primers. Reading primers is helpful to compare specific loads, but it does not really tell you what pressure level you're reaching. That requires at least a piezoelectric pressure sensing system - and those are available, but quite pricey. |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 9:29:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Last group was 25.9. Took one shot and then stopped. What did your chrony say? |
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Posted: 9/26/2021 8:54:52 AM EDT
[#32]
They look good to me.
Still have rounded edges but a bit of flattening in the middle. As mentioned. Primer flattening is one sign. I’ve noticed cci flatten on loads that aren’t even close to max where rem 7.5 don’t show a sign of flattening. Primer pockets being of different tightness on pick-up brass or after multiple loads can play into it as well. I would have probably shot that last string and if it shot well I’d have considered it. |
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Posted: 9/26/2021 12:12:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reading primers is helpful to compare specific loads, but it does not really tell you what pressure level you're reaching. That requires at least a piezoelectric pressure sensing system - and those are available, but quite pricey. Although we all do it, and are well advised to look carefully at our primers, the concept of reading pressure from primers is deeply flawed. It's probably best for comparing loads fired in the same rifle using the same batch of components. Primer flattening can be caused by excessive headspace. Primer cratering can be caused by excessive clearance between the firing pin and hole in the bolt face. Primer cup thickness and hardness causes variation in appearance, too. Excessively deep primer pockets can also cause flattening. Variations in primer cup edges due to crimp removal can do it, too. It's probably best for comparing loads fired in the same rifle using the same batch of components. One of my rifles shows all the classic signs of excessive pressure several grains below what everyone else uses. I use 34-36, whereas, everyone else is up in the 38-41 grain region. My primers say, go no higher. Before I get off my soapbox - pressure measurement is available for the reloader for about the same price people pay for the Lab Radar chronographs. https://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RSI&Category_Code=PT  This image shows the effect of being seated on the lands versus being 30 thou off the lands. OP, how far is your load off the lands? IMO, but 2.260" is too long for magazine feeding. |
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Posted: 9/26/2021 9:57:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Cci primer can be on the large side of spec. New brass have tight pockets. But the primer should not be marked. You should be able to feel when primers hit the botttom of the pocket. A hand priming tool should not do the dent. A progressive may.
The dent should not hurt a thing. I have shot worse . Have forced primers into shallow 38, & 45 acp crimped brass in my early days. All fired. |
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Posted: 9/26/2021 10:44:28 PM EDT
[#35]
Maybe hit the cases with a primer pocket uniformer
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Posted: 9/27/2021 5:14:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The primer is completely flattened out nearly all the way up to the edge of the primer pocket. Compare the edge of the primer in the last pic to the first pic, you’ll see the first pic primers still have a decent rounded edge to them. Flattened primers are one sign (of many) of excessive pressure. Some of those cases appear to have some extractor flow as well, but gas guns can be a bit more finicky with showing those signs as other factors can contribute or outright cause it. They may even look like mini top hats when you knock them out. That happened to me with a .38 +p load I was working up. It only took a .1 gn increase in powder to go from normal looking to dead flat edge to edge. |
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