I bought some Hornady #2267 bullets a while back and have not had much luck finding an accurate load for them.  The bullets are 55gr FMJ boat tail with cannelure.  They aren't total metal jacket in that the base is open lead.

My rifle is a Rock River AR-15, 16" barrel with 1 in 8" twist (I know that puts a lot of spin on a 55gr bullet but read on, please).  It's chambered for 5.56 but I normally keep my loads down in the 223 Remington pressure range.

I've tried both Ramshot TAC (23.8 gr, 24.3 gr, 24.8 gr) powder and Hodgdon H335 (23.4 gr, 23.8 gr, 24.2 gr, 24.6 gr) with no luck.  24.8 grains of Ramshot works decently at 50 yards with a 10-shot pattern of about 3/4" but at 100 yards it has expanded to about 3" (both shot using a Lead Sled).

Bullet runout is not great but not terrible either.  They average about 0.003 with an occasional flyer that goes 0.008 and a good one that will be down around 0.001.  Out of sixty measured the maximum runout was 0.008 (twice) and the minimum was 0.0005 (three times).  The average was 0.0035" of runout.

Bullets are seated to 2.200".  Like the runout I'll get the occasional cartridge that is a few thousandths longer or shorter.  Sixty cartridges measured showed a maximum length of 2.205 and a minimum of 2.197".

I have weighed a few of them but somehow managed to lose the results.  As I recall they were all within a couple of tenths of a grain of each other, plus or minus a few thousandths in length, and pretty consistent in diameter.

Cases are Norma and I trim them to 1.750".  I don't measure or trim case necks however the runout on them is always very good.  Out of 60 measured (there are more but these are with this bullet) the maximum runout was 0.002" with a minimum of less than 0.0005" (I could just see the needle "Ticking" slightly).

I shot the four loads with H335 powder yesterday and they were running about 2.7 MOA at 100 yards and that just won't cut it.  I load a lot of Midsouth Shooting Supplies "Varmint Nightmare Extreme" 55gr bullets and I can get sub MOA at 100 yards from them so I know the gun is OK, I know the Norma brass is OK, and I know 55gr bullets will shoot accurately out of it, but these Hornady bullets are giving me a real headache.

Velocities are relatively consistent for each bullet with comparable powder charges taking into consideration that the Hornady bullets are likely seated a little deeper.  24.6 grains of H335 drives the Varmint Nightmare Xtreme at 2,761 fps and the Hornady bullets at 2,810 fps measured on a Magnetospeed chrono.  I appear to have a node at around 2,630 to 2,730 since I have two loads that shoot best at that speed.  One of the loads I tested yesterday measured 2,629 fps so it should have been good.  While it was more or less the best of the four it was still very poor (10 shots at 2 MOA).

The biggest difference between the loads with Varmint Nightmare bullets and Hornady are the cartridge length.  I load the VNX bullets at 2.250" and the Hornady at 2.200".  Could that 0.03" make a huge difference?  From what I've read AR-type rifles have such a deep chamber that it's unlikely either one is getting close to the lands, but I honestly don't know that for sure.

Sorry for the information overload but I was trying to answer any questions I would have asked.  I'm sure I still managed to overlook something though.

If anyone has any advice I'd sure appreciate hearing it.  My advice to myself is to just give up on these bullets but I'm hard-headed and feel that I should be able to get something better out of them so I'll probably keep throwing stuff at them until I shoot them all up ;)

Try those nodes at~2.25". I've seen +/-0.003" in OAL, which is mostly variation in the bullets' nose length.

Johnny's Reloading Bench 55gr FMJ series, while hardly scientific, showed some correlation of the 0.050" difference in OAL affecting groups.

Don't worry about weighing components and measuring runout. Focus more on neck tension. Some PR/BR guys have equipment to measure the force as it seats into a case - for my loading, especially FMJ, I go by feel. If one is noticeably firmer or easier, it's a bore fouler.

I recall @lazyengineer getting 1.7-2.5 MOA average at 200yds using mixed brass churned through a Dillon, and fired through his Service Match Rifle and carbine.

I've been about 2 MOA at 100yds, but I have loose trigger nut issues: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Range-Report-Hornady-55gr-FMJ-short-range-High-Power/42-489863/

Man, I run 26.2 gr of TAC under my H 55 fmj, shoots great.   Try running then a bit hotter.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.  I had read somewhere here that people were getting some good results from the Hornady bullets before I decided to give them a try so I was pretty sure it was something I was doing.

@HighpowerRifleBrony - Measuring runout and weighing bullets was done after I had good results at 50 yards but everything went to hell at 100,  I was trying to see if there was something that was causing it because I just plain didn't expect a difference as large as I was seeing.  I have noticed a difference in neck tension "Feel" from time to time so I'll certainly take your advice on that part.  Norma brass is usually very consistent and their TAC-223 ammo shoots pretty well through my rifle.

@lazyengineer - I can do that to ;)  Powder is cheap and my rifle is chambered for 5.56 rounds so I've got plenty of room to go up and will give it a try.

Again, thanks to both of you.  The help is much appreciated.

How many shots in your groups?

I typically shoot 10 per group.  I load 20 rounds of each increment I want to test.  I shoot 10 of each over my chrono and then take the chrono off and shoot 10 more for a pattern.  My chrono is a Magnetospeed and I prefer to take it off before shooting for a pattern.

What is your question?

I was hoping for advice on how to resolve my issues with Hornady 2267 bullets.  I've gotten a couple of good tips I'm going to try so I may have the answer.

I can anecdotally confirm boosting TAC up a bit, several 16" Franken Rifles have liked 25.1gr TAC with that same 2267.

Great, thanks!  I'm going to try and give it a try this week and see what happens.  Got plenty of powder and bullets so no reason not to ;)

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

I shoot them with 25 grs h335 and down to 24.5 335,out of 1 in 9 twist rifles, 5 shots always around an inch, and I don't worry anything like you do, load and shoot.

Maybe your rifle just don't like them.

I load them to around 2.20, 2.25 whatever, they are not fussy, neither am I, don't know why your having problems with this bullet, it might be the best 55FMJ out there.

Like high brony said, Johnny's reloading bench "u-tube" tested a bunch of 55 FMJ's, he finally came down to 2 55gr FMJ's bullets and 335 is right in the middle of the best.

He's got over 50 videos, check him out, it's fun to watch him go at it.

That's what is bothering me, I've read that those are good bullets but they just don't work for me and I can't understand why.  I hope to find some time this week to try a heavier load and watch some of the videos that were mentioned and see what happens.  Better or worse as long as it goes one way or the other I think I'll be happy ;)

Thanks for your help, it's also much appreciated.

All the Rock River rifles I have with 1/8" twist also have a Wylde chamber.  They do not have the long throat typical of Colt or other military barrels.

You mention 2.250" OAL and 2.200" OAL.  Then claim 0.03" difference.  Which is it 0.03" or 0.05"?  Anything that size should work.

Every batch of FMJ bullets I have seen has had at least a few bullets with uneven lead at the base.  This causes instability in flight and leads to large groups.  Note, your groups grew by more than double when your distance doubled.  To me, that implies increasing instability in flight which could be caused by the bullet.


My Advice -

1.  Check the rifle to ensure everything is as it should be, including the barrel extension and barrel nut.

2.  Check the sights and the bases/mounts, too.  What sight(s) are you using?

3.  Buy and load some 52 gr Sierra MatchKings.  This should be used as a benchmark to ensure the rifle and shooter are all okay.

Basically, I'd say this.  Get a better bullet if you want to shoot small groups..

Actually, 5.56 should have a freebore length of 0.056". Wylde should have 0.062". Leade angle might differ a couple minutes.

OP probably had a decimal dyslexic moment.

Yep, he did say 5.56, not Wylde, didn't he?

I just like clarity on the dimensions, for the OP's sake not mine.  Any of the OAL's mentioned will work and are very unlikely to be the cause of his 2 MOA groups.

I still believe something is either loose or he needs a better bullet (or both), however, I do not know this shooter.  Is it a shooter vision problem?

All fair questions and I appreciate your trying to help.

1.  OP did have a "decimal dyslexic moment".  There is 0.05" difference.  OAL is 2.250" with one load and 2.200" with this one.

2.  My rifle is a 5.56 and not a Wylde chamber.

3.  It isn't the rifle or optics.  Another load using different bullets (same powder, primers, cases) does shoot sub-MOA groups so it's something about this bullet.  I just haven't hit on the magic formula that my rifle likes yet, but at the same time I didn't expect it to be quite so picky.

4.  You mentioned:
and that's what I noticed as well.  If the group had doubled in size I wouldn't have been so surprised but it more than doubled.  That did make me think of something though.  These bullets are sold as "Bulk Bullets" however they are Hornady 2267.  It is quite possible that they are bullets that didn't pass Hornady's QC checks and are just being sold as bulk.  That could easily explain issues with them that are causing that instability.

Thanks again for the help.

Understood.  It's within limits for 5.56 but over max for .223 but I absolutely understand what you're saying.

I use CFE223 at 25 grs with the same Hornady bullets and Remington 7 1/2 primers. Load to 2.250. Shoot them through a Faxon 18" GUNNER barrel. Even with only 6X scope can get right around 1 MOA groups if you work at it. They are good enough to hit a 'C' target at 300 yds.

Huh, I have always thought of those bullets as shit plinker bullets. I wouldn't expect much from an fmj/wc.

I have about 10-12k of them and have been shooting them for years.
I just slapped together a light load that functions in all my barrels (7.5"- 18"), depending on the rifle they shoot about 2moa.
I have never bothered trying for better because they are fmjs.

I use better bullets when I want tighter groups.

Just as a bit of clarification here is an example of what I'm getting:

Photo 1 - 10/06/2018 - 40 rounds @ 100 yards using a bipod (no Lead Sled)

This load does NOT use the Hornady bullets.  I just wanted to show that the gun works, the optics work, and there are loads that work.  The three or four flyers are all on me, not the rifle or the ammo.  That big ragged hole is most of 40 rounds @ 100 yards using a bipod.

Photo 2 - 09/08/2018 - 20 rounds @ 50 yards using a bipod

This load DOES use the Hornady bullets.  It was shot at 50 yards using a bipod (no Lead Sled).  Not the best but the rounds were at least holding a group.

Photo 3 - 11/09/2018 - 20 rounds @ 100 yards using a Lead Sled

This is what I shot last Friday and it is using the Hornady bullets.  Despite my earlier comment it is 20 rounds and not 10 rounds since I was getting so disgusted by then it wasn't worth the effort to walk down there to change the target.  Worst case it should have been about twice what the previous scan shows, best case it should have been better.  The previous scan was at 50 yards using a bipod while this was shot at 100 yards using a Lead Sled so it should have been better but there's not even a pattern to it.

I'm grateful for all of the help people above have provided.  It gives me a lot to work with and hopefully a direction to at least figure out what's going on.  I've got a couple of loads that work well but like everyone else I'm open to experimentation and just wanted to see if I could get something out of these bullets.  If not, nothing lost, but I still appreciate everyone's help.

So what bullet was it that shot well? Get those.
I don't spend much time on bullets that don't show promise in 50 or so rounds of development.

Between the two dates how much difference was there in air temp. It looks like your load was unstable and fell apart the next trip due to powder temp maybe.

If you must get accuracy from these, develop your load base on muzzle velocity only.

Work low to high over a 2.5-3gr range maybe .2-.3gr increments, one shot of each, record each velocity, go up to max, nearly ignore the group on target.

Look for a velocity plateau where the velocity doesn't change much(40fps-ish ES) over a .7 to 1gr charge weight span.
Pick the middle charge weight of that span, load 10 or so and shoot a group. Enjoy

Oh and sell that Lead Sled.......as a matter of fact, before doing any more dinking around shoot some groups without the Lead Sled.

I'm not a fan of Lead Sled things either.

I've found using a full, typical range bag as a front rest to push the magazine well against, and a small squeeze bag under the stock works best for my benchresting ability. Be sure the muzzle is past the bag.

But I'm mostly a sling supported shooter and prefer a similar amount of pressure against my shoulder.

Just possibly, we may be dealing with a problem of expectations here, not an ammunition problem.

One picture is worth one thousand words, two are worth more.

Those two groups, both fired at 100 yards are almost the exact same size groups.

The 100 yard "tight" group fits inside a 2.7" circle.  The "tight" group at 50 yards fits in a circle that's 1.4" diameter, as close to half as you can get.

The "loose" group fits inside a 2.9" circle.

It is entirely possible the apparent difference is due to the differing number of rounds fired (40 versus 20).  

Do a more thorough analysis of these groups to draw statistically-based conclusions on mean radius at 90% confidence level.

Even so, as I said above, if you want small groups, get a better bullet.  The 52 SMK will tell the tale.

The bullets that work well are Midsouth Shooters Supply Varmint Nightmare Xtreme.  The Hornady bullets were somewhat of a whim.  I had read some good things about them and caught them on sale so I got 500 just to play around with.  Figured if I could come up with something that would work well I'd keep using them, if not I hadn't lost much.  So far I'm on the "Not Great" end of that equation ;)

Good idea regarding the velocities.  Finding a spot where things tend to level out slightly should be a good indicator and I'll give it a try.

I normally do shoot without the lead sled but I'm not as steady as I used to be and it helps when I need to be as still as I can.

I shot on a rifle team for a while (a short while!) decades ago and used a sling then but that was my only exposure to them.  I have actually used my range bag and it did work well.  It might be a worthwhile comparison to try my range bag, lead sled, and just a bipod to see what actually does work best for me.

I'll order some Match Kings.  You aren't the first to recommend them.  I used to load some Sierra bullets in 30-06 many years ago and had very good results from them.

That "Loose" group is part of what bothers me though, simply because there's no real pattern to it.  Four rounds in the 1" box, 5 or 6 more to the left, and 8 more scattered around the perimeter.  In addition I know I shot 20 rounds and I only count 17 or so, and I doubt there were any "Perfect Doubles" in that group.  No idea where the other hits are.

Other than that I guess I tend to agree that it might be expectation or perception.

Again, I would like to thank everyone for their advice and assistance.  I really does help a lot and I'm grateful.

Bipod? Sling? lead sled? range bag ? Which one works for you? I'm like Brony, squish the bag in back, rest forearm close up front to magazine, and rest the mag on a little something if you want, but you have do it all the same for a group. Sounds like you are not quite buckled  in yet.

I'd loose the sled too, is it a freefloat barrel. Why 40 shots?

Bipod is where? What's a 10 shot group look like using just a squeeze bag and a rest?

Finally had time to read this more in depth.  A few items of note.

- On a safety note, my 26.2 gr charge of TAC with my 55 FMJ is about as high as you want to go.  They're noticeably hotter than a lot of other ammo.  That runs pretty close to true M193 spec; which is hot.  In my gun.  Also, my lot of TAC is a surplus lot, and very possibly not representative of your lot, so as correctly stated: work up to that with care.  My point was, you're running so low, the gun-powder probably isn't running as it was engineered.  Gun-powders are tuned to run at a certain pressure and heat.  If you run it at a lot different then that, it often won't run as well.  In my experience, there's a minimum hot-level you want to run at, for things to run smooth, and a maximum (usually well over-max) range, where again, the powder is being run outside it's design window of pressure and temperature for maximum optimization of performance.  In my opinion, TAC (and most ball powders) prefer to be run hot, so I run that powder near the upper end of the safe-spectrum for best performance.

- You're worrying WAAaaaayyyyy too much on things that don't matter. Runout-in a semi-auto I've learned, even when preparing match ammo, in a semi-auto, is almost irrelevant.  The one thing I learned from my $120 neck runout tool that I bought, was that if you rotate your round 180 degrees half way through seating, neck run-out is cut about in half.  And then never had to use the tool again.  The other thing I learned, is that neck-runout has pretty much zero impact on AR15 performance.  Same for worrying over OAL variances, especially with 55FMJ

- The Hornady 55 FMJ is a good bullet - relative to other 55 FMJ offerings.  It's still a mass produced FMJ bullet.  Don't expect greatness.  Tuned 55FMJ should be asked to give 1.5 MOA groups in a high quality barrel, don't demand much more.  1 MOA can happen, but don't demand that.  1.5 MOA is good enough to win every match you ever enter, if you are on your game.

- 1 in 8 twist is the perfect general barrel twist rate, optimized to shoot everything from 80s down to 40s well.  Your 55 FMJ should sing just fine in a 1/8 BBL.

- NORMA brass is the finest bulk/mass brass you're going to find.  Buying NORMA 55 FMJ ammo for around 30 cents per round, gives you amazing brass, that you're going to have to go to Lapua to beat, at nearly $1/casing.  The brass isn't your problem.

- Your performance analysis statistics on group size are not my recommendation.  I suggest using something like RangeBuddy App, and measure mean-radius.  Mean-radius is independent of round-count; it will be the same at 10 rounds, as at 20 rounds, as at 100 rounds.   I ran it real quick, and your 20 rounds at 50 have a Mean Radius of 0.75 MOA, and at 100 yards, you tightened up to a Mean Radius of 0.62 MOA.  My guess is the variability is actually you, more then the ammo (I'm shooting farther, so I need to hold it more steady).  But for what it's worth, 24.6 gr of Ramshot TAC gave me about that Mean Radius.  When I went up to 26.2 gr of TAC, it tightened up to about 0.44 mean radius.  That's me, and my limited sample, certainly there is some experimental variability error (i.e. if I shot 10 groups of both the "bad" and "good" loads, would the average be that high on the bad one, and that low on the good one?  Probably not).

- While accuracy tends to be number 1, all your loads are running pretty slow, in my opinion.  It's a .223, not a .222 Rem - it can take a good bit more.  And again, being ball powders, running them so low pressure, is going to give sub-par performance (at least, that's what I think anyway).  If you want to run that slow, consider some of the extruded powders, which tend to be more forgiving to lower pressure running.  I run my ball 55 FMJ ammo at least in the 16" spectrum of 2800-3000 fps.  Sometimes I'll run them above that, my TAC load is pushing almost 3050 fps out of a 16" (and that's as hot as I'm going to go).  Not saying you need to push that hard, but 2600 is pretty slow.  It's not where the engineers designed the components to run.

- I crimp my 55 FMJ; because random brass is how I roll for this spec ammo; and crimping means less random neck tension.  That, and it's military ball; it's supposed to be crimped.

- Yes, jump can affect accuracy, and crowding the lands better should help.   Don't care, this is meant to be M193 ammo, and that's how I roll it.  And in my experience, it runs fine seated to crimp depth to me.

- Your groups are serviceable, for what it is, but should be better.  I think you can get there if you bump up your velocity to at least 2900 (seriously, try to crowd 3000) and crimp them.  Also, cross check the you-factor by shooting some known-good precision ammo, and/or have someone else do a few test groups with your ammo.  I don't run a sled, too cheap for one, and am less convinced they are actually more accurate,f or another.

Good luck!

Yes, the barrel is a free-floating barrel.

What works for me most of the time, or to phrase it better what I use the majority of the time, is a bipod mounted as far forward on the lower Pic rail as I can get it (just behind the front sling swivel).  Normally nothing in the back except my shoulder and my left hand.  It's comfortable for me and the way I prefer to shoot when I'm just having fun.

As I mentioned I used my range bag for a while but felt that the bipod worked better so I went back to it after a few range sessions.  I only use the lead sled when I want something to completely support my rifle such as testing a load.

Why 40 rounds?  Why not 40 rounds ;)  I was having fun, no other reason than that.

I thought it was the Hornady group, slap me. LOL.

Have fun man.

Well, I can see where the "Engineer" part came from but I'm not sure I agree with the "Lazy" part.  That was a lot of thought and effort placed into one post, thanks.  I've been hanging around consulting engineering companies for about 50 years as a designer and I think that is a lot of why I tend to overthink and over-measure everything.

I agree that my loads are on the slow side.  Most tend to run about 2,700 fps with an occasional test load up around 2,800.  Ramshot's load data for the Hornady bullet ranges from 23.2 grains of TAC up to 25.8.  I started at 23.8 and went up to 24.8 and stopped.  Much the same with H335.  Hodgdon shows 23.0 grains to 25.3 grains but I think it's for a 55 grain Speer (abbreviated "SPR") soft point.  I started at 23.4 and went up to 24.6 and stopped since I wasn't sure of the actual bullet they used.  I have no problem working things up a bit more though to see what happens.  As long as I go a little bit at a time where I can look for pressure issues it should work fine.

I do put a slight crimp on my loads.  Not real heavy, .002 to .003 or so.  I started using a Lee Factory Crimp die years ago loading handgun ammo and never regretted it so when I started loading .223 I got another one.

You did pick up on my source for Norma brass though.  I shoot a lot of TAC-223 for fun and keep the brass.  Not only is it exceptional brass but I can always tell my brass from all the rest littering the range floor since nobody else there shoots it ;)  If it has a Norma headstamp I know it's mine.

I'll put RangeBuddy on my phone and play with it.  I took a quick look and it seems to be pretty interesting.  Certainly worth playing with and getting some information from.

Your last comment was meaningful to me.  The groups are serviceable but should be better, and that's what I'm searching for.  I like tinkering with things like this and when I hit one that isn't doing what I feel like it should it nags at me.

Lots of good info here, thanks again for your help.  I'm going to print out this whole thread at the office tomorrow so I have a hard copy of everyone's comments.

Nah, I'm not gonna slap someone that was just trying to help.  It's all good ;)

Here are the two 100 yard groups presented on the same scale with 50 yard group on the far right, similarly scaled.  The circle diameters are as stated above.

I picked up several cases of that when they were on sale - a STEAL of a deal.  I don't waste that brass on 55 FMJ though, all my NORMA brass ever sees are Berger's - and usually only for the 600 yard line at that!

If you look at your targets you can see in the first two with the bipod the majority of the rounds are in the upper right of the box, then look at the led sled target and you can see a point of impact change to the left.

I would bet you are not looking through the scope with the same paralax as the other targets were shot at. I would re-shoot  the loads on the same day and the same way with the bipod and see what you find.

I find when using a rest that my position behind the rifle changes, and can be the cause for this load opening up.  I would try these again and see what happens.

What you have to watch for when shooting off a rest with your hand or a bag under the back of the rifle is

the amount of pressure from your cheek or face on the stock of the rifle, if you really snug down for some shots and then the next few shots you just lay your cheek on the

stock with little down pressure to something even less, all 3 could affect the group POI by applying different pressure to the front of the rifle resting on the bag. And will cause you to look through the scope from different angels.

Freefloat will be less of a difference, but a difference just because in the way the rifle moves on recoil, downward pressure pushes towards the front of the rifle etc.

and more down pressure, the barrel will jump less to more with less face on the stock and vibrate less/more. If you try this with match ammo, you'll see the difference easier.

Try and lay your rifle on the bag front and rear and shoot as best you can to apply little to no pressure from your face every shot. Watch out for low mounted scopes.

Don't be a fatface LOL.

Very good points, and I admit I'm not great at finding exactly the same position every time.  I try but what felt good a few minutes earlier feels strained or uncomfortable a few minutes later so I squirm around trying to find something that feels more relaxed.

When I was a kid I bought an Ithaca single-shot 12 gauge slug gun.  I can't remember the model name now but it was a break-down gun with a lever action that opened it.  For whatever reason I decided I had to have a scope on it so I got the local gun shop to drill and tap the receiver for one.  The gunsmith warned me that he had the mount further to the rear than he was comfortable with (I don't remember why) and for me to be careful with it.  But being young and dumb I didn't pay much attention.  I wore the scar from the hammer spur hitting right under my right eye for a long time ;)

You would likely be quite right to.  I never feel comfortable shooting from a rest because I can't seem to find a position that doesn't have me contorted or twisted or something.  As I mentioned somewhere up above I think I am going to do a comparison of shooting with my bipod, using a range bag for a rest, and from my lead sled.  It will be interesting to see how the POI changes from just that alone.

Here we have a perfect example of Geographic Dissymmetry ;)  In this part of the world there aren't many places we can even see 600 yards much less shoot without a big uphill or downhill correction.  Oak Ridge Shooters Association at Oak Ridge, TN has a 1,000 yard range but they tore up a LOT of real estate during construction of that facility back in the 1940's.  There's a 400 yard range about 70 miles northeast of me and I think there may be one more 500 yard range but that's about it.  Everything else is 200 or less as far as I know.

I'll start by saying 26.2 grains is not as hot as mil spec ammo as some here suggest. It's on the hotter side of standard .223, but it's not a gun buster by any means.

I've used the 2267's with Tac very good results. They give me right at an inch at 100 yards, and sometimes better if I'm having a good day shooting. I did quite a bit of load testing with them and found they like to be driven on the hotter side to get the best accuracy. Coincidentally, my most accurate load is 26.2 grains. My OAL is 2.23" and it works in pmags, but you may have to shorten it for your mags and chamber. I also use cheap S&B primers, so there is nothing fancy in any of my rounds.

Western Powders has .223 and 5.56 load data for Tac with the 2267's (edit: the difference is 55,000 psi vs 62,000 psi). The standard .223 data is 23.2 to 25.8 grains, while the 5.56 data is 24.5 to 27.3 grains. Their listed COL is 2.20". That data is from their new book. As you can see, 26.2 grains isn't that much over .223 max data and it's over a full grain less than the max 5.56 data. I know reading primers isn't totally reliable but my primers and brass has zero pressure signs, even on hot summer days.

I do very minimal case prep and I use cheap Lee dies on a turret press. You should be able to get better accuracy than me if you have nice enough equipment to measure lateral run out.

For future bullet orders, the updated Hornady 2266 is a 55gr SP with an enclosed boat tail. It's the same price as their FMJ's. I used to buy both the 2266 and 2267, but I'll be buying just the 2266's in the future. They give about the same accuracy but are more versatile than FMJ. Also, the older version of the 2266 is flat base and they like to loaded milder than the 2267. Those may work better for you if you can find some of the older 2266's. Maybe you prefer FMJ's and that's ok too.

So my summary is to try loading the 2267's a bit hotter with Tac if you want better accuracy with them. I'd suggest trying different bullets if you want accuracy with mild powder loads. And of course, don't jump right into my load data or anyone else's without working up to it first.

Edit: My main AR has a 1:7 twist, so your 1:8 twist should be fine with the 2267 bullet.

Edit 2: I read previous posts again. My Tac is about 2 years old and was canister grade (not surplus). That may explain why I feel that 26.2 is a mildly hot load while another finds that it's a really hot load. That's just all the more reason to slowly work up loads.

Sorry it took all day for me to get back to this.  It's been one of those weeks at work and it's only Tuesday ;(

Your advice is right in line with what some of the others above have mentioned, and I am most assuredly going to give it a try.  I've looked at Ramshot's load data to and noticed that the 26.2 grains that were recommended were just slightly above .223 max.  My rifle is chambered for 5.56 and I've shot some relatively hot 5.56 through it so I'm not afraid to ease my way up to that load.  Just got to find the time to do it.

I always work my way up on loads.  I've seen what happens when people just blindly jump on a max load or randomly pick a charge weight because it sounded right.  I'm a lot more conservative than that and have no problem in starting where I know it's safe and going up in little increments from there.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

I seen where Hornady changed the 55 sp to BT, not to sure about that one. The flat base was a good shooter.

I like FMJ's and Hp's better because the way soft points look after just a few shots are fired, points are bashed up

and flattened and just because of being in the magazine, getting pounded, then they hit the feed ramp, get chewed up more, chunks of lead floating around, yec.LOL

That's my opinion as well.  For paper-punching ammo, I prefer the tougher more abuse-prone FMJ bullet.  Also, in my own experience, I got better accuracy out of the FMJ than the SP.  I know most people experience the opposite - but that's how it worked out for me.  Also, I view SP as a varmint round, and the FMJ as more of a tougher general purpose round.  FMJ will fragment and yaw above 2700 FPS, and be plenty effective, and if I do a shot on something hard like a hog's thick head or cheap home-made bad-guy body armor, I have more confidence in an FMJ penetrating effectively, than a bulk SP bullet.  I'll shoot them both, but really it's about accuracy and price for this type of ammo, and usually I find the SP priced just a touch more, and usually it's accuracy isn't any better.  I also found the flat-base a little more difficult in the progressive, with more shaved copper, and bullets wanting to fall over while the ram's going up - than the boat-tailed FMJ's.  Glad they changed that design, maybe I'll try it again.

Woo Hoo!!  I get to say "I agree" for once as well ;)

I've had the same issue with soft-point bullets getting flattened in magazines so I prefer FMJ for that reason.  I also prefer boat-tail bullets since they are a lot easier to load with less copper shaving and less of a balancing act.

Same here.  I use those for things like 25 yard Appleseeds where a 3 MOA group is all you need or for general fun shooting on more generous targets.  If I’m truly worried about accuracy I’ll use a much better bullet like SMKs.

The Hornady bullets have never shot less than 2 MOA for me and generally 2.5 MOA.

Update - 11/26/2018

Well, when you're right you're right and you guys were right.  I took your advice and increased the charge using H335.  I should have used Ramshot TAC but I didn't.  I've used both TAC and H335 and the results have been similar so I don't think there will be a huge difference but I will go back and run the same tests using TAC when I have time.

This is where I left off using 24.6 grains of H335.  10 rounds at 100 yards.  Muzzle velocity was 2810 fps using a Magnetospeed chrono.  Mean radius on this target is 0.846" / 0.808 MOA.


Last week I loaded 20 rounds each using 24.9 grains, 25.2 grains, and 25.5 grains of H335.  Per Hodgdon's web site 25.3 grains is the maximum load of H335 for .223 Remington however my rifle is chambered for 5.56x45 so that extra 0.2 grain didn't worry me.  The first load at 24.9 grains was a little bit better (0.744" mean radius), the second load at 25.2 grains a bit better still (0.632" mean radius), and the third load at 25.5 grains better still (0.511" mean radius).

Once again, 10 rounds at 100 yards.  Muzzle Velocity increased to 2,974 fps.  Plus it looks a LOT better.  If that outlying round at about 12:30 is removed (I yanked that one so it wasn't the rifle or the ammo, purely me) the mean radius drops to 0.431" and the target actually has a pattern to it.


We had some quartering crosswind that was slightly up and down between about 5mph and 0mph coming from about 045 relative so if it had been calm things probably would have been better yet.

The best I have gotten with those bullets previously was 0.751 MOA mean radius at 50 yards and this target shows 0.411 MOA mean radius at 100 yards (without that flyer!) so that's nearly a 50% improvement.

The bottom line is that you guys were absolutely, 100% right and I've got something I can at least work with now.  My sincere thanks to ALL of you that gave advice and got me going in the right direction.  I can take things from here and tweak it a little bit, I think ;)

Thanks for the update and I'm glad it came together for you. Keep us posted when you get a chance to try Tac again. I'm curious how it'll compare.

I will do that.  I'm hoping to get a few loaded this week and try them this weekend if the weather will behave.  I want to know the answer to that question myself.  If I can get it done I'll gladly post the results.