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Posted: 9/21/2021 3:08:19 PM EDT
[#1]
15.0 grs 2400 is what you seek.
You will need an old manual to confirm this load. I shoot my 160 gr sized .311 powder coated bullets in my AK. Perfect function. Of course I use steel Berdan cases, but Boxer brass cases also work fine. |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 3:21:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 15.0 grs 2400 is what you seek. You will need an old manual to confirm this load. I shoot my 160 gr sized .311 powder coated bullets in my AK. Perfect function. Of course I use steel Berdan cases, but Boxer brass cases also work fine. Thanks, @dryflash3. I was hoping you would weigh in on this. What OAL are you using? Any chronograph data for that load? |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 3:24:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks, @dryflash3. I was hoping you would weigh in on this. What OAL are you using? 2.15 OAL, light crimp with a Lee FCD Any chronograph data for that load? No |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 8:42:43 PM EDT
[#4]
2400 is tough to cycle.
The latest Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook actually has very good load data for both of Lee's 7.62x39 bullet castings. I was surprised they listed data for Lee molds, but the data is very good. They list RL7 and IMR-4198. H4198 is very close to those. They actually have different data for the 155 grain bullet and the 160 grain tumble lube bullet. I lost the data, but it was right on. The TL tumble lube bullets usually drop a bit smaller in diameter than the non-TL bullets. The TL bullets are meant to use as-is, without using a sizer / luber. Now a sizer small enough might make them, "more round", but a regular .311" sizer often doesn't touch them because they are on the small side to begin with. |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 10:04:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2400 is tough to cycle. The latest Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook actually has very good load data for both of Lee's 7.62x39 bullet castings. I was surprised they listed data for Lee molds, but the data is very good. They list RL7 and IMR-4198. H4198 is very close to those. They actually have different data for the 155 grain bullet and the 160 grain tumble lube bullet. I lost the data, but it was right on. The TL tumble lube bullets usually drop a bit smaller in diameter than the non-TL bullets. The TL bullets are meant to use as-is, without using a sizer / luber. Now a sizer small enough might make them, "more round", but a regular .311" sizer often doesn't touch them because they are on the small side to begin with. Great info, thanks. I just ordered the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition. |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 11:09:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2400 is tough to cycle. The latest Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook actually has very good load data for both of Lee's 7.62x39 bullet castings. I was surprised they listed data for Lee molds, but the data is very good. They list RL7 and IMR-4198. H4198 is very close to those. They actually have different data for the 155 grain bullet and the 160 grain tumble lube bullet. I lost the data, but it was right on. The TL tumble lube bullets usually drop a bit smaller in diameter than the non-TL bullets. The TL bullets are meant to use as-is, without using a sizer / luber. Now a sizer small enough might make them, "more round", but a regular .311" sizer often doesn't touch them because they are on the small side to begin with. No problems with my AR or AR. Have you ever tried that load? |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 11:48:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tough to cycle? No problems with my AR or AR. Have you ever tried that load? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 2400 is tough to cycle. The latest Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook actually has very good load data for both of Lee's 7.62x39 bullet castings. I was surprised they listed data for Lee molds, but the data is very good. They list RL7 and IMR-4198. H4198 is very close to those. They actually have different data for the 155 grain bullet and the 160 grain tumble lube bullet. I lost the data, but it was right on. The TL tumble lube bullets usually drop a bit smaller in diameter than the non-TL bullets. The TL bullets are meant to use as-is, without using a sizer / luber. Now a sizer small enough might make them, "more round", but a regular .311" sizer often doesn't touch them because they are on the small side to begin with. No problems with my AR or AR. Have you ever tried that load? Yes, didn't cycle everything or didn't cycle very strongly. I moved to some of the slower powders before Lyman started listing data for Lee castings. It was good to see that their data mirrored what I was getting. The TL tumble lube Lee bullets meant to load away from home or on the cheap, without a sizer / luber. They tend to down size the diameter as cast, to use as cast, rather than be sized down and lubed in a sizer. The 155 grain bullets aren't huge in diameter though and can also be tumble lubed pretty easily. The popular method to tumble lube has been to put lube in a plastic bag with the bullets and shake it. |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 3:05:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, didn't cycle everything or didn't cycle very strongly. I moved to some of the slower powders before Lyman started listing data for Lee castings. It was good to see that their data mirrored what I was getting. The TL tumble lube Lee bullets meant to load away from home or on the cheap, without a sizer / luber. They tend to down size the diameter as cast, to use as cast, rather than be sized down and lubed in a sizer. The 155 grain bullets aren't huge in diameter though and can also be tumble lubed pretty easily. The popular method to tumble lube has been to put lube in a plastic bag with the bullets and shake it. |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 3:59:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What were you shooting that wouldn't cycle? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, didn't cycle everything or didn't cycle very strongly. I moved to some of the slower powders before Lyman started listing data for Lee castings. It was good to see that their data mirrored what I was getting. The TL tumble lube Lee bullets meant to load away from home or on the cheap, without a sizer / luber. They tend to down size the diameter as cast, to use as cast, rather than be sized down and lubed in a sizer. The 155 grain bullets aren't huge in diameter though and can also be tumble lubed pretty easily. The popular method to tumble lube has been to put lube in a plastic bag with the bullets and shake it. SKS. |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 4:10:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SKS. |
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Posted: 9/23/2021 3:10:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, different gun from my AK and AR. Yes, and I wanted loads that would be reliable in it and others. I was surprised when Lyman published load data for the Lee molds and it really is good data. |
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Posted: 9/23/2021 7:13:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Got my new Lyman manual today.
It lists loads for 2230, which I have a couple pounds of. Thanks again for the comments. |
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Posted: 9/23/2021 9:30:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Got my new Lyman manual today. It lists loads for 2230, which I have a couple pounds of. Thanks again for the comments. If your A2230 is made in Belgium it is the same as Ramshot X-Terminator. Accurate more recently has said they are switching all their ball powders to US made. When the Lyman book was written it was Belgian. Accurate hasn't changed the data and the only difference I can tell, is the now US made versions are just barely slightly slower than the Belgian versions of their powders, so I guess they figured the old data would be safe. A2460 has been US made for several years though. They haven't updated their website, but A2520 is now US made and one other that I can't remember changed too. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:04:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If your A2230 is made in Belgium it is the same as Ramshot X-Terminator. Accurate more recently has said they are switching all their ball powders to US made. When the Lyman book was written it was Belgian. Accurate hasn't changed the data and the only difference I can tell, is the now US made versions are just barely slightly slower than the Belgian versions of their powders, so I guess they figured the old data would be safe. A2460 has been US made for several years though. They haven't updated their website, but A2520 is now US made and one other that I can't remember changed too. More great info, thanks. I wrote to Western Powders to see if new stock of 2230 and X-Terminator could be considered interchangeable since the load data was the same. Their response was: "Load data is the same for these in some cartridges but not all. We would not recommend mixing them." So I guess that's that. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:13:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Making good progress . I have 750 cases deprimed and resized (really liking the APP).
I also got started casting my 160 grain bullets. After powder coating and gas checking/sizing to .311, they actually weigh closer to 170 grains. I used the larger .311 expander/decapper pin that came with my Lee die set. Question for @dryflash3 or anyone: Will I need to use another separate neck expander like a Lyman "M" die before seating these bullets? |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:15:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great info, thanks. I wrote to Western Powders to see if new stock of 2230 and X-Terminator could be considered interchangeable since the load data was the same. Their response was: "Load data is the same for these in some cartridges but not all. We would not recommend mixing them." So I guess that's that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If your A2230 is made in Belgium it is the same as Ramshot X-Terminator. Accurate more recently has said they are switching all their ball powders to US made. When the Lyman book was written it was Belgian. Accurate hasn't changed the data and the only difference I can tell, is the now US made versions are just barely slightly slower than the Belgian versions of their powders, so I guess they figured the old data would be safe. A2460 has been US made for several years though. They haven't updated their website, but A2520 is now US made and one other that I can't remember changed too. Great info, thanks. I wrote to Western Powders to see if new stock of 2230 and X-Terminator could be considered interchangeable since the load data was the same. Their response was: "Load data is the same for these in some cartridges but not all. We would not recommend mixing them." So I guess that's that. If the ones you have are both made in Belgium, they are the exact same powders. Accurate stated they were switching o US made. The load data hasn't been changed. If they both say made in USA, they are the same, but I don't know if the ramshot powder will change to US made. The data is the same, but I find the newer, US made Accurate versions to be just slightly slower than the Belgian versions. So the data should at least be safe for them. Look on the label and see if it says Made in Belgium. The Lyman data is just before the Accurate powders stated they were going to change, so the Lyman data should be for the Belgian versions. Even the newer US versions would only be barely slower powders. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:35:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the ones you have are both made in Belgium, they are the exact same powders. Accurate stated they were switching o US made. The load data hasn't been changed. If they both say made in USA, they are the same, but I don't know if the ramshot powder will change to US made. The data is the same, but I find the newer, US made Accurate versions to be just slightly slower than the Belgian versions. So the data should at least be safe for them. Look on the label and see if it says Made in Belgium. The Lyman data is just before the Accurate powders stated they were going to change, so the Lyman data should be for the Belgian versions. Even the newer US versions would only be barely slower powders. My 2230 is made in the USA and the X-Terminator is made in Belgium. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:53:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My 2230 is made in the USA and the X-Terminator is made in Belgium. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the ones you have are both made in Belgium, they are the exact same powders. Accurate stated they were switching o US made. The load data hasn't been changed. If they both say made in USA, they are the same, but I don't know if the ramshot powder will change to US made. The data is the same, but I find the newer, US made Accurate versions to be just slightly slower than the Belgian versions. So the data should at least be safe for them. Look on the label and see if it says Made in Belgium. The Lyman data is just before the Accurate powders stated they were going to change, so the Lyman data should be for the Belgian versions. Even the newer US versions would only be barely slower powders. My 2230 is made in the USA and the X-Terminator is made in Belgium. Are they from the same time period? USA-made is fairly recent and Accurate has not changed their load data at all for it and say it is still good. Note the current load data is from the Belgium made powder. I only got ever so slightly lower velocity with the US-made version, but the difference could be said to be the same from lot to lot of the same powder, so they did a good job copying the Belgian made powder in the US. The Lyman data should date back to Belgian made A2230 which the exact same powder as Belgian made X-Terminator. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:59:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they from the same time period? USA-made is fairly recent and Accurate has not changed their load data at all for it and say it is still good. Note the current load data is from the Belgium made powder. I only got ever so slightly lower velocity with the US-made version, but the difference could be said to be the same from lot to lot of the same powder, so they did a good job copying the Belgian made powder in the US. The Lyman data should date back to Belgian made A2230 which the exact same powder as Belgian made X-Terminator. Both are new production from within the last 6 months. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:01:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Here is a 2018 article that refers to US-made X-Terminator as new, but I have never seen X-Terminator or TAC that was US made.
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/propellant-profiles-7 I know the Accurate powders changed. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 11:21:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Making good progress . I have 750 cases deprimed and resized (really liking the APP). I also got started casting my 160 grain bullets. After powder coating and gas checking/sizing to .311, they actually weigh closer to 170 grains. I used the larger .311 expander/decapper pin that came with my Lee die set. Question for @dryflash3 or anyone: Will I need to use another separate neck expander like a Lyman "M" die before seating these bullets? You will also need the M die to expand the case mouth. Some thing you must do with cast bullets if you want any accuracy. https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Educate-Me-on-Lyman-M-Dies/42-452183/ This is the thread that sold me on M dies, and now I tell anyone who will listen. Also....there is no need to page me as I read every post in every thread. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 11:20:38 AM EDT
[#22]
M Die was ordered this morning.
 While I'm waiting for it to arrive, I still have the rest of my brass prep to do and more bullets to cast and powdercoat. This should work out well. With the decapping and resizing being handled quite nicely by the APP, I have enough room to finish loading on my 4-hole turret press. The stations will be: 1. Expand the case mouth with Lyman M Die 2. Powder charge 3. Bullet seat 4. Lee FCD |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 1:44:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: M Die was ordered this morning. While I'm waiting for it to arrive, I still have the rest of my brass prep to do and more bullets to cast and powdercoat. This should work out well. With the decapping and resizing being handled quite nicely by the APP, I have enough room to finish loading on my 4-hole turret press. The stations will be: 1. Expand the case mouth with Lyman M Die 2. Powder charge 3. Bullet seat 4. Lee FCD |
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Posted: 10/9/2021 8:12:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Need some more help here. I'm obviously missing something important.
I'm using the .310 expander in my Lee decapping/resizing die which I understand is correct for cast bullets. My bullets are powdercoated, gas checked and sized to .311. I'm using a Lyman M die (.30 Short). If I flare the case mouth enough to prevent powdercoat shaving when seating the bullets, I have almost no neck tension. The bullet is so loose I can move it by hand. Do I need to be sizing a couple thousandths bigger? I thought .311 was pretty standard for this caliber. I get .310 to .311 when measuring the case neck before using the M die so I guess I'm confused on how I would ever get the bullets to seat firmly with only .001" max neck tension... |
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Posted: 10/9/2021 10:43:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Need some more help here. I'm obviously missing something important. I'm using the .310 expander in my Lee decapping/resizing die which I understand is correct for cast bullets. My bullets are powdercoated, gas checked and sized to .311. I'm using a Lyman M die (.30 Short). If I flare the case mouth enough to prevent powdercoat shaving when seating the bullets, I have almost no neck tension. The bullet is so loose I can move it by hand. Do I need to be sizing a couple thousandths bigger? I thought .311 was pretty standard for this caliber. I get .310 to .311 when measuring the case neck before using the M die so I guess I'm confused on how I would ever get the bullets to seat firmly with only .001" max neck tension... Be sure to Loctite the expander or it will work loose over time. Had about 4-5 do that, so I Loctited them all. You want the second expander to just open the case mouth and the bullet to sit into the case about 1/16 inch.   Look at round in press. Gas check is barely covered up.  Rifle or pistol all M dies work the same way. |
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Posted: 10/10/2021 2:18:58 PM EDT
[#26]
As far as I can tell, I'm setting the M die correctly.
1. Screw the die body into the turret until it touches the shell holder. Tighten the lock ring and set screw. 2. Put a case in the shell holder and screw in the expanding plug stem until I feel the plug hit the case mouth and it stops moving. This indicates to me that the first stage of the plug is inside the case neck and the second stage is in contact with the case mouth. 3. From here, I made very small adjustments (maybe 1/8 turn at a time) to the expanding plug stem until I could just get the base of the bullet (gas check) to fit inside the case mouth, then locked the stem in place and seated the bullet. Does this method sound correct? I loaded up about 10 rounds just for function testing. I'm still getting very, very little neck tension and I don't have a lot of confidence in these test rounds. Some of the bullets can be spun in the case after crimping like a .22lr. I won't shoot those ones. I had a few that shaved powdercoat off the bullet but still seated with almost zero resistance. I took some more measurements. My bullets are exactly .311" at the gas check and all driving bands. My Lee expander/decapping pin measures .310". The first stage of my Lyman M die expanding plug measures .309", and the second stage measures around .313". At this point I'm still not sure what is going on. Any other suggestions? |
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Posted: 10/10/2021 2:41:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Lee sizing die expander should be .002 to .003 smaller diameter than the bullet.
You only have .001. Turn down expander with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper in your drill. Fine polish use 600 grit. Check diameter often, you can't put metal back on. Sounds like you adjusted M die correctly.  Hope you Loctited the expander or you will find out why in the future. What one of my M dies looked like when I took it apart when it was over expanding. |
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Posted: 10/10/2021 3:03:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lee sizing die expander should be .002 to .003 smaller diameter than the bullet. You only have .001. Turn down expander with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper in your drill. Fine polish use 600 grit. Check diameter often, you can't put metal back on. Sounds like you adjusted M die correctly. https://i.imgur.com/9ojwHmDl.jpg Hope you Loctited the expander or you will find out why in the future. What one of my M dies looked like when I took it apart when it was over expanding. Thanks. I will loctite the Lyman expander today. Sounds like i should have used the .308 expander that came with my Lee die instead of the .310. This runs contrary to everything I have read about loading for this caliber, but I think you're correct that my expander pin is just too big for the .311" bullets. I sure wish I hadn't sized and primed 750 pieces of brass already.   |
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Posted: 10/10/2021 4:25:45 PM EDT
[#29]
I find that Lee sizers are seldom what they are marked. Usually they can be ground to desired size.
Especially their bullet sizing dies. Don't trust what's marked, measure with your caliber and know what they measure. When I first started with 7.62x39, I got a RCBS die set so I could take the decapping pin out to size Berdan cases. I had started with Lee dies and the decapping pin is not removable, and later upgraded to Hornady dies. So Hornady dies are my Boxer dies and RCBS is for Berdan cases. Before I got sidetracked, I was going to say I had to turn down both sizing decappers in the RCBS die set. One to .306 for /308 bullets and the other .308 for .310, .311 bullets. |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 9:02:05 PM EDT
[#30]
After very carefully dialing in the M die, I got it to a point where I was able to maximize the seating resistance. It still isn't great, but I feel better about it than I did. Moving forward, I'm going to try the .308 expander and if that ends up being too tight I will remove a thousandth or two from my .310 expander.
In the meantime, I loaded up 20 rounds just to test function. I used 23.2 grains of AA 2230 and CCI 200 primers. My bullets were seated to 2.170 per the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. The same source lists the powder charge range from 18.0 to 25.3 grains of AA 2230. I shot them today through my Yugo SKS. Feeding seemed to be all right, with no bullet setback. I didn't shoot for accuracy, but put about 8 rounds through paper and saw no signs of tumbling. I was able to hit a 6" steel plate at 100 yards offhand with 2 of 4 shots. Spent brass ejected with authority. I'm not good at reading primers for pressure issues. There's a little flattening but no cratering. However, some of them backed out of the pockets. Have a look - the last picture shows the two worst cases as far as primers backing out.  Attached File Attached File Attached FileMy bullets after a light coating of powdercoat and gas check weigh around 170 grains, so I was wondering if I need to back off the charge and start lower. Would the light neck tension be a factor here? Thoughts? Are the concentric rings around the dimple just an artifact from the bolt face or something to be concerned with? |
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Posted: 10/17/2021 10:44:42 AM EDT
[#31]
Backed out, round primers means low pressure and extra headspace clearance.
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Posted: 10/17/2021 11:53:19 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Backed out, round primers means low pressure and extra headspace clearance. It may not be headspace, but it might be if the sizing die is pushing the shoulder that far back to cause an issue. The low pressure is not expanding the case shoulder when fired, so the primer can move out. It may all be a low pressure issue only. It is difficult to get high pressure with such slow powder in 7.62x39. I'd try a higher powder charge and check case and rifle headspace if possible. CCI-200 primers are not the best for ball powders. A friend hangfires in 30-30 with them and ball powder. He switched to CCI-250 primers and fixed that problem. He used the CCI-200 primers with extruded powder after that. |
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Posted: 11/8/2021 10:09:51 PM EDT
[#33]
Switching to the .308 expander and a heavier powder charge was definitely the key. I have .002" to .003" neck tension and great bullet retention now.
Got to the range and tried out 4 loads using AA1680 and AA2230. 5 shots with 24.5 grains of 2230 grouped nicely at 25 yards with open sights on my Yugo 59/66 SKS.  Attached FileFeeding and function were perfect. There were no issues with primers backing out with this powder charge. Ejection was powerful, as is typical with this rifle. No pressure signs. Velocity averaged 1840 fps. I'm going to explore this load some more at longer ranges (after I bump my front sight over a bit ) and try it out in some other guns.Thanks to all who offered great advice in this thread. I think I'm on the right track now. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 12:20:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: M Die was ordered this morning. While I'm waiting for it to arrive, I still have the rest of my brass prep to do and more bullets to cast and powdercoat. This should work out well. With the decapping and resizing being handled quite nicely by the APP, I have enough room to finish loading on my 4-hole turret press. The stations will be: 1. Expand the case mouth with Lyman M Die 2. Powder charge 3. Bullet seat 4. Lee FCD Quick question... did you check the amount of shoulder bump when you used the APP? Reason I ask is because the APP shell holder may be thicker than what would come with the die set. With 223 I was barely getting within Sammi spec and I would double tap the die against the shell holder just to make sure I didn't short stroke it. This was with an RCBS die set. Can't recall off the top of my head if I did a head space measurement after sizing X39 on the APP, but can't imagine not doing it. Just haven't loaded any of the brass yet and full dimension check a round. I also have RCBS dies for x39. |
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