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Posted: 2/22/2018 12:22:51 PM EDT
My family has roughly 200 acres in South Carolina. All of us live about 12-15 hours away by car so it does not get much use. I go there once a year with my brother and attempt to hunt pigs which we know are there. We have a rancher who watches the land in exchange for grazing and he tells us of the hog issue. We have gone twice so far for a few days each and been unsuccessful. I’m going for 8 days thios summer and want to up my game.
My brother has been using a PVS14 behind a Browe, dbal etc. and I have been using a green flashlight. Recently he picked up a Pulsar XP38 and a Torrey Pines Logic Zero Lens (allows you to use pvs 14 as a collimated clip on). So I will have roughly $4000-5000 to spend in the next 2 months. I want it for hunting and general NV capability when I’m not in South Carolina. I’m sure I can use the Zero lens if I go PVS-14 because he will helmet mount his PVS and use the XP 38. Thanks. Pictures of property and the 2 rifles (both 6.5 Grendel) I am bringing:  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 1:31:09 PM EDT
[#1]
Longest shot would be 350 yards but really 200 or 150 or less is much more likely.
 Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 1:54:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Sounds like you have the PVS14's taken care of. You running IR lasers?
May need some extra IR illumination for distance being as you could run into the possibility of recognition (identification) issues. Smaller calf might be confused with a big hog at distance. A little extra IR illumination like from a SPIR could help you PID so as not to piss off the rancher. From having a part time cattle endeavor, I can tell you that our cows are like our kids. We drive over spend time with them, hang out and talk pasture with them regularly.  Your rancher may feel the same way.Ditto if you went with thermal, make sure it's high enough quality to do a decent PID at the distance your planning to shoot. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 1:58:42 PM EDT
[#3]
My brother has the PVS 14 and XP38. I have nothing yet and I'm wondering do I go PVS14 first or thermal scope/clip on first or I2 scope or clip on etc.
If you were in my shoes and starting from scratch with 5K, where would you start? Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 2:00:06 PM EDT
[#4]
And the herd is small and the rancher will move his cows around depending on where we are going to be for the night/day.
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Posted: 2/22/2018 2:05:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Just dropped in to to say nice land/spread and weapons setup. Good luck with the project/hunt.
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Posted: 2/22/2018 2:15:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just dropped in to to say nice land/spread and weapons setup. Good luck with the project/hunt. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 2:50:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Thermal is king. nv is good for PID faces at 10 yards. Thermal is good for PID on the hog at 100 yards you could barely see with you PVS14 and illuminator. On a moonless or misty night, you absolutely couldn't see the hog.
Here's a current thread w/ a similar topic https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Finally-looked-through-thermal/18-486660/?page=1 |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 2:59:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thermal is king. nv is good for PID faces at 10 yards. Thermal is good for PID on the hog at 100 yards you could barely see with you PVS14 and illuminator. On a moonless or misty night, you absolutely couldn't see the hog. Here's a current thread w/ a similar topic https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Finally-looked-through-thermal/18-486660/?page=1 |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 3:13:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 3:17:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thermal is king. nv is good for PID faces at 10 yards. Thermal is good for PID on the hog at 100 yards you could barely see with you PVS14 and illuminator. On a moonless or misty night, you absolutely couldn't see the hog. Here's a current thread w/ a similar topic https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Finally-looked-through-thermal/18-486660/?page=1 |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 4:29:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 10 yards? This Gen 1 stuff? I have a PVS-27 I can PID faces at 500 yards and not breath too hard. And it's not gen 1, it's a TNVC, L3, Gen3 un-filmed white phosphorus tube. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 4:45:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Time out, you're saying that you would be able to tell the difference between two adult male faces at 500 yards under unmagnifed NV? I'd be impressed to see someone consistently and accurately tell the difference in daylight at 100 yards. And it's not gen 1, it's a TNVC, L3, Gen3 un-filmed white phosphorus tube. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: 10 yards? This Gen 1 stuff? I have a PVS-27 I can PID faces at 500 yards and not breath too hard. And it's not gen 1, it's a TNVC, L3, Gen3 un-filmed white phosphorus tube. We should start comparing apples to apples here in many cases. Sure my IR 640 12um Patrol XR with it's 4.5x optical magnification can see things closer than my L3 WPT 14 at 1.1x at 300 yards, but let me use my PVS-27 or D-760 Magnum etc. and I will beat down the PID of the Patrol all day long. No I am not talking about detection, where thermal is KING.
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Posted: 2/22/2018 4:46:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Has he given you any feedback on the Zero Lens? I’ve always been curious if they are worth their price tag. What part of SC? My family lives in the upstate.
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Posted: 2/22/2018 4:59:28 PM EDT
[#14]
I just want an invite to come hunt.
And for hunting thermal wins. Gotta find em b4 you can shoot em. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 5:04:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has he given you any feedback on the Zero Lens? I’ve always been curious if they are worth their price tag. What part of SC? My family lives in the upstate. He has used it to look out on fields using a Tnvc Omni VIII PVS14 and a Leupold VX6 4-24 and Torch IR illuminator. He said it works well but I'm not sure what that means. I am going to ask him to give me some more info on it. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 5:14:00 PM EDT
[#16]
He also used it in front of a Browe 4X. I will get some more info on it.
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Posted: 2/22/2018 5:37:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just want an invite to come hunt. And for hunting thermal wins. Gotta find em b4 you can shoot em. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 5:38:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has he given you any feedback on the Zero Lens? I’ve always been curious if they are worth their price tag. What part of SC? My family lives in the upstate. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 6:48:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Guy’s he has a budget of $5k let’s be real. OP take a look at the classifieds there’s a lot of nice gear there. If I was you I’d look at a hd19 scanner and pst223 or similar pulsar scope. Your hunting style is going to change. You’re going to be able to close on pigs in those pastures. You both need tripods. Get a thermal scanner and a thermal scope or I2 clip on. Boom you’re killing hogs.
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Posted: 2/22/2018 7:36:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guy’s he has a budget of $5k let’s be real. I would take a hard look at the PTS233 from Ultimate Night Vision with a ZRO delta mount. Could probably use it as a scanner and then put it on your rifle as a scope |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 7:50:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guy’s he has a budget of $5k let’s be real. OP take a look at the classifieds there’s a lot of nice gear there. If I was you I’d look at a hd19 scanner and pst223 or similar pulsar scope. Your hunting style is going to change. You’re going to be able to close on pigs in those pastures. You both need tripods. Get a thermal scanner and a thermal scope or I2 clip on. Boom you’re killing hogs. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 7:57:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And you gotta ID them before you kill em...Might be great with all those 640 12/17um systems with all those kill vids but the majority hunt with 384 or lesser, even worse for PID at extended ranges. I get it, get closer. But tired of folks blowing smoke upsuspecting users that thermal somehow ID's facial etc. over modern NV and NO, NOT A PVS-14 WITH IT's 1.1x lens. I get that too...Oh and I get the Skeeter shots at cows faces at 3 away. Had BAE stuff since the OASYS days... Yea, I hunt 4 legged creatures as well. We agree to disagree, I get it... Not trying to be a jerk here, just wanting to have a legit discussion. Would you disagree that you can see something with unmagnified thermal way before you can see something with unmagnified NV? Especially on a moonless or misty night? And by the time you PID the difference between a pig/deer/dog/person with unmagnifed NV would you not be able to do the same with thermal? Even more so when you have the ability to digitally zoom? And for those hunters that are budget conscious and use 384 or lesser units, do you see them getting the most out of NV by wanting to get into Gen3 night vision with a good illuminator/laser like a dbal/atpial/mawl? I would imagine a PTS233(a 12u thermal rifle scope) AND a Flir Breach (a 12u helmet mounted or handheld)would be cheaper than the combo of a PVS14/helmet/mount/arm/laser/illuminator/and accessories(tape switch, better helmet pads, lanyards, counter weights, amber filters, etc etc etc). I mean, a PTS233 is almost 1k cheaper than even the cheapest NV monocle most dealers carry. |
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Posted: 2/22/2018 9:00:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Just throwing out numbers that fall under the 5k. Take it for what it's worth. Always good to have more info than less, even if it's bad.
Cheapest, barebones, NIB option from one online store: cheapest helmet with shroud (opscore skull mount) - $250 Cheapest Pvs14 listed - $3,000 Cheapest IR Laser (OTAL) - $400 Cheapest weapon mounted Illuminator (m300v) - $340 J arm - $90 Cheapest mount (Rhino mount) - $180 Total - $4,260 --or-- PTS233- $2,199 Breach (yes, I know, available soon haha) -$2,500 Total - $4,699 |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 5:30:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Recent experience with both:
I have a thermal scope and a helmet mounted PVS14. We were out hunting for pig in an area with a fuckkkkk load of deer. I would pause and scan with the thermal scope and then drive with my pvs14. I scanned with my thermal and observed dozens of bedded down deer (in an oat field) so I continued on. I looked to my left with my pvs14 and saw a bunch of dark colored blobs around a tree. I thought "hmmm...deer are usually light colored". I lifted up my thermal and got PID on a sounder of hogs. I most likely would have missed those hogs if it wasn't for my pvs14. Moral of the story. Get both. $2k for a thermal scope (flir or pulsar) $2.5k for a gen 3 pvs14. Or find a pvs7 for $1500 $500 for a skull cap and and mount. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 7:34:09 AM EDT
[#25]
For $5k:
Flir PTS 233 (Or Pulsar RCQ30) ~2000 PVS 14 Used ~2500 3x Magnifier Used ~120 OpsCore Bump Helmet ~275 USGI Rhino Mount Used ~40 With that gear list and a bit of field craft you will be killing pigs left and right. By the time you master that gear and understand how thermal and I2 fit into your hunting style you will have money available for the next step....what ever that may be. Have fun! |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 7:52:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Night vision is okay for Open Fields but thermal blows night-vision away. Apples to Apples thermal kills night vision.
One thing a lot of people don't talk about, night Vision cannot be used during daytime and there are certain times at night that you cannot use night vision. Thermal is good for day or night. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 8:23:03 AM EDT
[#27]
If you have young kids, a thermal scanner makes you a hide and seek pro.
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Posted: 2/23/2018 9:20:20 AM EDT
[#28]
To get both I would have to go with PTS233 or something vs spending it all on a 640 unit. Is that going to be enough to make shots out to 200 yards? Or do you just stalk in and get closer?
Because I would really want to get both and could most likely swing a new PVS14, and a PTS233. Thanks for all the help. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 2:51:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Recent experience with both: I have a thermal scope and a helmet mounted PVS14. We were out hunting for pig in an area with a fuckkkkk load of deer. I would pause and scan with the thermal scope and then drive with my pvs14. I scanned with my thermal and observed dozens of bedded down deer (in an oat field) so I continued on. I looked to my left with my pvs14 and saw a bunch of dark colored blobs around a tree. I thought "hmmm...deer are usually light colored". I lifted up my thermal and got PID on a sounder of hogs. I most likely would have missed those hogs if it wasn't for my pvs14. Moral of the story. Get both. $2k for a thermal scope (flir or pulsar) $2.5k for a gen 3 pvs14. Or find a pvs7 for $1500 $500 for a skull cap and and mount. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 3:16:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think anyone is trying to say that you are going to be able to differentiate faces with thermal. I think we are saying that you will be able discern between pig/deer/dog/person. I'm don't claim to know about her hunting experience, whether or not they should had set sectors of fire, or to say the ATN thermal scope was a POS low budget unit, but it unfortunately ended tragically. Would it have made a differance if she ID him with NV first? I'm sure it would have been better than relying solely on a thermal scope. http://www.wyff4.com/article/shot-that-killed-hog-hunter-recorded-by-womans-firearm-investigators-say/12239667 |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 3:32:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure the woman that accidentally shot another hunter in the face in Anderson County S.C. thought she had PID a hog before she dropped the hammer and shot him the face. I'm don't claim to know about her hunting experience, whether or not they should had set sectors of fire, or to say the ATN thermal scope was a POS low budget unit, but it unfortunately ended tragically. Would it have made a differance if she ID him with NV first? I'm sure it would have been better than relying solely on a thermal scope. http://www.wyff4.com/article/shot-that-killed-hog-hunter-recorded-by-womans-firearm-investigators-say/12239667 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I don't think anyone is trying to say that you are going to be able to differentiate faces with thermal. I think we are saying that you will be able discern between pig/deer/dog/person. I'm don't claim to know about her hunting experience, whether or not they should had set sectors of fire, or to say the ATN thermal scope was a POS low budget unit, but it unfortunately ended tragically. Would it have made a differance if she ID him with NV first? I'm sure it would have been better than relying solely on a thermal scope. http://www.wyff4.com/article/shot-that-killed-hog-hunter-recorded-by-womans-firearm-investigators-say/12239667 |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 5:32:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure the woman that accidentally shot another hunter in the face in Anderson County S.C. thought she had PID a hog before she dropped the hammer and shot him the face. I'm don't claim to know about her hunting experience, whether or not they should had set sectors of fire, or to say the ATN thermal scope was a POS low budget unit, but it unfortunately ended tragically. Would it have made a differance if she ID him with NV first? I'm sure it would have been better than relying solely on a thermal scope. http://www.wyff4.com/article/shot-that-killed-hog-hunter-recorded-by-womans-firearm-investigators-say/12239667 |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 6:39:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure the woman that accidentally shot another hunter in the face in Anderson County S.C. thought she had PID a hog before she dropped the hammer and shot him the face. I'm don't claim to know about her hunting experience, whether or not they should had set sectors of fire, or to say the ATN thermal scope was a POS low budget unit, but it unfortunately ended tragically. Would it have made a differance if she ID him with NV first? I'm sure it would have been better than relying solely on a thermal scope. http://www.wyff4.com/article/shot-that-killed-hog-hunter-recorded-by-womans-firearm-investigators-say/12239667 As previously stated, that incident is 100% the shooters fault for not being sure of the target. The fact that a thermal was used is completely irrelevant because failing to PID can be done with thermal or night vision. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 6:42:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To get both I would have to go with PTS233 or something vs spending it all on a 640 unit. Is that going to be enough to make shots out to 200 yards? Or do you just stalk in and get closer? Because I would really want to get both and could most likely swing a new PVS14, and a PTS233. Thanks for all the help. Also, pretty sure he only uses thermal now. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 7:23:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think we are having the the same debate. The point in question is at what distance can someone accurately decide whether they are looking at a feral pig or an adult man crawling on all fours at night. Regardless if it is nightvision or thermal, there is a distance in which you cannot accurately tell the difference. The point that is made is that with thermal, the distance that you accurately PID a pig/man/dog/coyote is significantly further than what is possible with night vision. As previously stated, that incident is 100% the shooters fault for not being sure of the target. The fact that a thermal was used is completely irrelevant because failing to PID can be done with thermal or night vision. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 8:53:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think we are, as TNVC stated a NV clip on with a magnified optic wins all day long for PID and that's coming from the man himself that has access to all the top tier night vision/thermal inventory hands down, used this stuff during his time in SpecOps, has classes to train LEOs/operators to use this stuff efficiently and sells it to bad ass dudes "that killed more people than cancer" (TNVC quote). |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 9:02:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For $5k: Flir PTS 233 (Or Pulsar RCQ30) ~2000 PVS 14 Used ~2500 3x Magnifier Used ~120 OpsCore Bump Helmet ~275 USGI Rhino Mount Used ~40 With that gear list and a bit of field craft you will be killing pigs left and right. By the time you master that gear and understand how thermal and I2 fit into your hunting style you will have money available for the next step....what ever that may be. Have fun! Tons of used PVS14s on EE for way under $2700. I have PVS14, MUM14, and Zeus 640 50mm. All have their uses. Thermal makes warm things pop from the background, nice feature. One day I’ll get a better tube for my -14, but in the meantime it’s pretty cool. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 9:04:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Haha oh man. We are really starting to stray from the original purpose of this thread. Sorry OP. @MunnyShot, what are your personal experiences with thermal vs NV with the application of hunting in mind? Have you ever hunted with a NV clip-on? |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 9:29:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Haha oh man. We are really starting to stray from the original purpose of this thread. Sorry OP. @MunnyShot, what are your personal experiences with thermal vs NV with the application of hunting in mind? Have you ever hunted with a NV clip-on? As for "straying away from the original purpose of this thread" the op said "I want it for hunting and general NV capability" For hunting yes, but Fo you think a thermal mounted scope would be a wise choice for "general NV capability"??? Yeah I didn't think so either... |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 9:49:34 PM EDT
[#40]
BAE UTC can easily PID hogs, deer or human (no facial recognition but can tell it is a person) at 800 yards and beyond. Truly an amazing thermal. Would like the opportunity to look through the newer UTC-XII.
Clip-on night vision is limited to time of day/night for safe usage and illumination from moonlight/ starlight at these ranges. IMHO Thermal still wins in the high dollar NV vs Thermal comparison. Some animals are also hard to see with NV due to the color of their hair or skin. Hogs do stand out well usually. |
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Posted: 2/23/2018 11:21:57 PM EDT
[#41]
He’s hunting mostly open 200 acres that he’s familiar with. I can’t figure wtf a pvs14 is going to do for him if his bro already is carrying one? I’ve hunted sounders with I2 clip ons and they suck compared to a thermal bc the targets are harder to track. If you want to snipe one hog at 400 yards after counting the hairs on it’s tits at 20x and let the rest of the sounder go, that’s your go to path. But hey you will absolutely have positive ID and know that it’s not some f’ing guy crawling on the ground lol!! You’ll kill 3-5 pigs a year on your 200 acres. You need to get close and hose them down with a thermal. You’re not a delta force sniper....right? A 384res unit will do that for you.
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Posted: 2/24/2018 4:29:31 AM EDT
[#42]
I think we've beaten the thermal dead horse enough to realize that its great for filling the hunting, and detection roll under the right atmospheric condition, but again it only solves "1/2" of his needs. The second requirement is "general night use" where a mounted optic and thermal in general will absolutely suck trying to navagate even on his known property that the OP said they rarely use. Again hunting from a static position, detection or over watch thermal = good "we get it" but for all around NV is still a better fit for both of his needs. Let's not also forget thermal will be limited/ fails at if it's lightly raining, foggy, and humid conditions.
The OP has a 5k budget and IMHO he could get both a high spec PVS14 3k and buy a FLIR PT223 2k problem solved. Another option instead of buying the PT223 is to buy a Dbal D2 for 1k, spend the other 1k on a decent thermal scope or better yet save another 1k to buy the PT223 which will allow him to hunt very effectively with either. It will also fulfill his need for general night use and not be limited or have to plan his hunting trips around the weather. |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 7:03:45 AM EDT
[#43]
MunnyShot, I thought about your second option there with the laser but I do not think he would be satisfied in the end........ I know I wasn't when I started out that exact way. I wanted thermal. But OP, it is another option to consider
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Posted: 2/24/2018 7:23:21 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MunnyShot, I thought about your second option there with the laser but I do not think he would be satisfied in the end........ I know I wasn't when I started out that exact way. I wanted thermal. But OP, it is another option to consider |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 9:59:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's not also forget thermal will be limited/ fails at if it's lightly raining, foggy, and humid conditions. |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 12:20:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This statement is totally false, try using NV in fog, it is a waste of time. Thermal works in rain, fog and humidity.  :
https://www.flirmedia.com/MMC/CVS/Tech_Notes/TN_0001_EN.pdf |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 12:22:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This statement is totally false, try using NV in fog, it is a waste of time. Thermal works in rain, fog and humidity. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Let's not also forget thermal will be limited/ fails at if it's lightly raining, foggy, and humid conditions. ETA: From the article you cite @MunnyShot Conclusion & results According to these models, Cat I and Cat II types of fog, the thermal IR band offers better range performance compared to the visual band. As such, thermal IR cameras are well suited to look through these types of fog. The models suggest that thermal imaging cameras are potentially useful as landing aids for airplanes or as part of driver vision enhancement systems for the transportation and automotive industry |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 12:27:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure what thermal your using MunnyShot, but tank is right, under those conditions thermal is superior. |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 12:37:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure what thermal your using MunnyShot, but tank is right, under those conditions thermal is superior. ETA: From the article you cite @MunnyShot Conclusion & results According to these models, Cat I and Cat II types of fog, the thermal IR band offers better range performance compared to the visual band. As such, thermal IR cameras are well suited to look through these types of fog. The models suggest that thermal imaging cameras are potentially useful as landing aids for airplanes or as part of driver vision enhancement systems for the transportation and automotive industry The statement is still correct as atmospheric conditions limits thermal capabilities. I have also used NV in the fog/smoke and it sucks, but it's still capable in the rain and humidity. |
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Posted: 2/24/2018 12:44:18 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My brother has the PVS 14 and XP38. I have nothing yet and I'm wondering do I go PVS14 first or thermal scope/clip on first or I2 scope or clip on etc. If you were in my shoes and starting from scratch with 5K, where would you start? Thanks. Also, I’m in Myrtle Beach and would love to help you with your piggie problem 
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