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Posted: 4/7/2021 9:57:13 AM EDT
I've been putting a lot of thought into thinking about ways around the BATF's apparent desire to regulate any and all reliable pyrotechnic grenade fuzes. Although I hope they lose in court, and have to crawl back into their orc holes, I'd like to work around it entirely.
1. The problem with reactivating a spent fuze with cannon fuse is that you can get flash over from the primer. This is why the military went to the solid burning pellet design. The BATF can play the "no true scotsman" game about them too, and claim that it is a DD or regulated by itself. 2. If you put enough electricity through a small enough wire, it absolutely vaporizes and will easily work as an igniting fuze. 3. Low voltage, reliable timing chips are cheap as in <$1. Getting PCBs made is cheap. I'm looking at the Texas Instruments TL5111 here, and would probably run two seperate ones. 4. I know enough to be dangerous here. I've vaporized wires. I've had custom PCBs made. I have access to EMC testing tools so I can ESD zap a circuit. I am not an EE, and I am not an expert at electronic matches/exploding bridgewire detonators, so I need help thinking this through. 5. I am imagining this as as a screw in fuze that has a compartment around the wire that can be filled with whatever (BP, primary explosive, even HE if the wire is actually exploding with enough energy. There would be ZERO explosives content, not even a primer. 6. If the bridgewire leads are passed through the PCB, they could be safety shorted by a pin, so stray voltages couldn't set it off. Put a microswitch held closed by the pin. When the switch turns on, it connects a lithium battery to the timing circuit and charges a capacitor. Timer chips trigger a mosfet or similar to dump the capacitor into the guitar string/nichrome wire. Wire vaporizes. 7. The downside is that you might have to change the battery in your grenade like a smoke detector battery, or you'd get UXO.  |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 10:05:24 AM EDT
[#1]
You could just use the fuze from a taginn airsoft grenade and not have to worry about stray voltage or anything.
Or you could reactivate a grenade fuze using a proper pyrotechnic time delay compound instead of cannon fuse. Either way, good luck. I dont like electronic fuzes for things that I hold in my hand. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 10:12:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Interesting thread. Thanks for posting it.
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Posted: 4/7/2021 10:28:46 AM EDT
[#3]
If they're really regulating F1 fuzes by requiring a magazine, the only way around that is to have a binary in the detonator or have a disassembled fuze head from the detonator. Legally this means you would have to keep the fuze head disassembled until ready to use, mix binary put into det cap and place on the fuze head,. I don't think they're regulating the primer and delay part of the fuze. The primary and secondary explosives in the detonator are what need to be looked into if doing a revamp of a fuze that is exempt from magazine storage.
Everything else that has to do with electrical, I can't help with as I don't know anything of that.  I do know there are mechanical airsoft grenades that use some sort of either mechanical fuze or timed fuze that is non pyrotechnic. The electric matches, those are easily available online or even made. Lots of options to buy those in ebay or firework supply websites, if homemade there are youtube vids that show how to do it. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:00:16 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could just use the fuze from a taginn airsoft grenade and not have to worry about stray voltage or anything. Or you could reactivate a grenade fuze using a proper pyrotechnic time delay compound instead of cannon fuse. Either way, good luck. I dont like electronic fuzes for things that I hold in my hand. I think the key here is to have a shorting mechanism across the wire, and to ESD (I.E. a gun that zaps it with 15,000V of static, and a radiated immunity test where you blast radio waves) test the crap out of it. Since there's no chemical explosives at all, testing it is pretty safe. Just to put this in perspective, adafruit sells a complete timing board that's pretty much exactly what's needed for $6. This is a fairly cheap way to go. I have bounced this off a smart EE, and he's not seeing any real issues here. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:02:50 AM EDT
[#5]
I dont know anything about this stuff, just there to support OP and watch things (hopefully not OP) get exploded.
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:17:13 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dont know anything about this stuff, just there to support OP and watch things (hopefully not OP) get exploded. My son and I were having this very discussion a few days ago. Why bother with vaporizing a wire when you can use the microcontroller as the ignition source? It's not like it needs to survive, so dump your supercap through an I/O pin you have set to active low. I think we were looking at ATTiny10s or something like that, and were going to use ramset blanks as a booster. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:26:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My son and I were having this very discussion a few days ago. Why bother with vaporizing a wire when you can use the microcontroller as the ignition source? It's not like it needs to survive, so dump your supercap through an I/O pin you have set to active low. I think we were looking at ATTiny10s or something like that, and were going to use ramset blanks as a booster. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I dont know anything about this stuff, just there to support OP and watch things (hopefully not OP) get exploded. My son and I were having this very discussion a few days ago. Why bother with vaporizing a wire when you can use the microcontroller as the ignition source? It's not like it needs to survive, so dump your supercap through an I/O pin you have set to active low. I think we were looking at ATTiny10s or something like that, and were going to use ramset blanks as a booster. Also, not being an EE, I can readily understand a dumb timer chip, and it seems like there's less to go wrong. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:34:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought about using a microcontroller, and that would certainly work (just blowing up the micro). I like vaporizing a wire since you can have a predictable amount of energy, and scale the wire as needed. Blowing up a microcontroller is a more variable process, at least in my experience doing it accidentally. Also, not being an EE, I can readily understand a dumb timer chip, and it seems like there's less to go wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I dont know anything about this stuff, just there to support OP and watch things (hopefully not OP) get exploded. My son and I were having this very discussion a few days ago. Why bother with vaporizing a wire when you can use the microcontroller as the ignition source? It's not like it needs to survive, so dump your supercap through an I/O pin you have set to active low. I think we were looking at ATTiny10s or something like that, and were going to use ramset blanks as a booster. Also, not being an EE, I can readily understand a dumb timer chip, and it seems like there's less to go wrong. You can do more interesting stuff with a microcontroller. Barometric sensor for air-burst? Accelerometer/IMU for "setback" arming? |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:41:49 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can do more interesting stuff with a microcontroller. Barometric sensor for air-burst? Accelerometer/IMU for "setback" arming? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I dont know anything about this stuff, just there to support OP and watch things (hopefully not OP) get exploded. My son and I were having this very discussion a few days ago. Why bother with vaporizing a wire when you can use the microcontroller as the ignition source? It's not like it needs to survive, so dump your supercap through an I/O pin you have set to active low. I think we were looking at ATTiny10s or something like that, and were going to use ramset blanks as a booster. Also, not being an EE, I can readily understand a dumb timer chip, and it seems like there's less to go wrong. You can do more interesting stuff with a microcontroller. Barometric sensor for air-burst? Accelerometer/IMU for "setback" arming? In part because of the ick factor, I want this to be a dead simple board that a kindergartener can understand. Battery, capacitor, waterproof microswitch, timing chips, a couple resistors to set the time, maybe some filtering components for EMC. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:44:28 AM EDT
[#10]
My thought for the actual ignition is to go cheap/easy/reliable.
Instead of stretching a wire of NiChrome or similar and instead of an e-match - which the ATF has since regulated as far as storage - go old school. Incandescent miniature Christmas lights work like a dream if you carefully break the glass. They work with low voltage and the size is small enough to put two in there. Alternate idea: exploding resistors. Perhaps a small enough circuit could be designed.  Resistor as igniter. http://www.bigclive.com/ignite.htm |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:52:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You go down that route very far and you'll wind up with a raspberry pi land mine that recognizes the faces of your enemies and texts you a picture of their last moment on earth. In part because of the ick factor, I want this to be a dead simple board that a kindergartener can understand. Battery, capacitor, waterproof microswitch, timing chips, a couple resistors to set the time, maybe some filtering components for EMC. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I dont know anything about this stuff, just there to support OP and watch things (hopefully not OP) get exploded. My son and I were having this very discussion a few days ago. Why bother with vaporizing a wire when you can use the microcontroller as the ignition source? It's not like it needs to survive, so dump your supercap through an I/O pin you have set to active low. I think we were looking at ATTiny10s or something like that, and were going to use ramset blanks as a booster. Also, not being an EE, I can readily understand a dumb timer chip, and it seems like there's less to go wrong. You can do more interesting stuff with a microcontroller. Barometric sensor for air-burst? Accelerometer/IMU for "setback" arming? In part because of the ick factor, I want this to be a dead simple board that a kindergartener can understand. Battery, capacitor, waterproof microswitch, timing chips, a couple resistors to set the time, maybe some filtering components for EMC. So this is how we get Heinlein's "30-second bomb" ? |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:52:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My thought for the actual ignition is to go cheap/easy/reliable. Instead of stretching a wire of NiChrome or similar and instead of an e-match - which the ATF has since regulated as far as storage - go old school. Incandescent miniature Christmas lights work like a dream if you carefully break the glass. They work with low voltage and the size is small enough to put two in there. Alternate idea: exploding resistors. Perhaps a small enough circuit could be designed.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xaAk9FnrVghttp://www.bigclive.com/ignite.htm I'm adding some 1/20W resistors to my digikey shopping cart to try blowing them up. As far as I can tell, that's the smallest wattage rating through hole resistor, and thus more easily explody. I did like the idea of guitar string since I've blown it up before, and it was a little extra screw you to the BATF. But resistors might be more durable if I can blow them up. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:57:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Edit: It would seem they already have. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:59:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice ideas. I'm adding some 1/20W resistors to my digikey shopping cart to try blowing them up. As far as I can tell, that's the smallest wattage rating through hole resistor, and thus more easily explody. I did like the idea of guitar string since I've blown it up before, and it was a little extra screw you to the BATF. But resistors might be more durable if I can blow them up. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My thought for the actual ignition is to go cheap/easy/reliable. Instead of stretching a wire of NiChrome or similar and instead of an e-match - which the ATF has since regulated as far as storage - go old school. Incandescent miniature Christmas lights work like a dream if you carefully break the glass. They work with low voltage and the size is small enough to put two in there. Alternate idea: exploding resistors. Perhaps a small enough circuit could be designed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xaAk9FnrVghttp://www.bigclive.com/ignite.htm I'm adding some 1/20W resistors to my digikey shopping cart to try blowing them up. As far as I can tell, that's the smallest wattage rating through hole resistor, and thus more easily explody. I did like the idea of guitar string since I've blown it up before, and it was a little extra screw you to the BATF. But resistors might be more durable if I can blow them up. When I was a kid we just used bread bag ties to ignite the fuses in our bottle-rocket bazooka. They sell the same stuff on rolls as lashing for garden stakes. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 11:59:55 AM EDT
[#15]
Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here.
Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:00:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So this is how we get Heinlein's "30-second bomb" ? |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:03:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That will be version 2 or 3. It will also play a pertinent clip before detonating, I'm leaning towards "Surprise, cock fags!". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So this is how we get Heinlein's "30-second bomb" ? Is it a dud or is it resting? |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:09:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That will be version 2 or 3. It will also play a pertinent clip before detonating, I'm leaning towards "Surprise, cock fags!". Can we get custom versions? I want one that Rick rolls them. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:15:24 PM EDT
[#19]
The switch is the wrong kind, but how about something like this as a start?
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/adafruit-industries-llc/3435/6817229 |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:18:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. Its been a while, but back when the BATF was trying to ban M855/SS109 I came up with completely legal armor piercing nickel cored pistol ammo, and I just posted how to replicate it, plus the pictures of shooting through multiple Level III panels. I'm seeing this in the same light. The BATF screws with our community (Ben and his grenade), my first reaction is to figure out a way to render their entire argument moot. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:21:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. They already exist and we're "not good enough" to have them. Artillery miniature electric fuzes are decades old. Grenades happened in the late 80s. Quoted: Pretty sure other people have thought of this one already, and making money on it defeats the entire purpose of screwing with the BATF. Then I'd get a FEL and just have my supermodel wife bring me regular grenades from my magazines so I could throw them at woodchucks from the window of my masaratti . Its been a while, but back when the BATF was trying to ban M855/SS109 I came up with completely legal armor piercing nickel cored pistol ammo, and I just posted how to replicate it, plus the pictures of shooting through multiple Level III panels. I'm seeing this in the same light. The BATF screws with our community (Ben and his grenade), my first reaction is to figure out a way to render their entire argument moot. Power to you! I did similar with pure nickel and sabots. I managed to make a legally non-AP very much AP in practice projectile for the funniest least expected caliber of all. 7.62x38mmR. I holepunched a test IIIa panel out of a 1895 Nagant revolver.  
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:24:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The switch is the wrong kind, but how about something like this as a start? https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/adafruit-industries-llc/3435/6817229 I'm playing around with a PCB design right now using the same 5110 chip. The big decision is what battery to use, I'm leaning towards CR2032, but that makes a larger board than needed. I'm thinking the battery is going to go above the pin, and the microswitch will work horizontally off the face of the board, with spring contacts for safety shorting on either side of the switch. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:26:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They already exist and we're "not good enough" to have them. Artillery miniature electric fuzes are decades old. Grenades happened in the late 80s. Power to you! I did similar with pure nickel and sabots. I managed to make a legally non-AP very much AP in practice projectile for the funniest least expected caliber of all. 7.62x38mmR. I holepunched a test IIIa panel out of a 1895 Nagant revolver. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. They already exist and we're "not good enough" to have them. Artillery miniature electric fuzes are decades old. Grenades happened in the late 80s. Quoted: Pretty sure other people have thought of this one already, and making money on it defeats the entire purpose of screwing with the BATF. Then I'd get a FEL and just have my supermodel wife bring me regular grenades from my magazines so I could throw them at woodchucks from the window of my masaratti . Its been a while, but back when the BATF was trying to ban M855/SS109 I came up with completely legal armor piercing nickel cored pistol ammo, and I just posted how to replicate it, plus the pictures of shooting through multiple Level III panels. I'm seeing this in the same light. The BATF screws with our community (Ben and his grenade), my first reaction is to figure out a way to render their entire argument moot. Power to you! I did similar with pure nickel and sabots. I managed to make a legally non-AP very much AP in practice projectile for the funniest least expected caliber of all. 7.62x38mmR. I holepunched a test IIIa panel out of a 1895 Nagant revolver. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:50:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Are you trying to light something on fire, or initiate a stable high explosive?
Cannon fuse, or anything that "just burns" is not enough to set off a CompB filler, for instance. HE requires a high-velocity shockwave, while simply starting a fire is enough for BP or smokeless powder. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 12:51:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure other people have thought of this one already, and making money on it defeats the entire purpose of screwing with the BATF. Then I'd get a FEL and just have my supermodel wife bring me regular grenades from my magazines so I could throw them at woodchucks from the window of my masaratti . Its been a while, but back when the BATF was trying to ban M855/SS109 I came up with completely legal armor piercing nickel cored pistol ammo, and I just posted how to replicate it, plus the pictures of shooting through multiple Level III panels. I'm seeing this in the same light. The BATF screws with our community (Ben and his grenade), my first reaction is to figure out a way to render their entire argument moot. Hunting from a vehicle is only legal if you are legally handicapped. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 1:01:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you trying to light something on fire, or initiate a stable high explosive? Cannon fuse, or anything that "just burns" is not enough to set off a CompB filler, for instance. HE requires a high-velocity shockwave, while simply starting a fire is enough for BP or smokeless powder. I had assumed black powder/well-confined W231 or similar smokeless. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 1:27:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had assumed black powder/well-confined W231 or similar smokeless. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you trying to light something on fire, or initiate a stable high explosive? Cannon fuse, or anything that "just burns" is not enough to set off a CompB filler, for instance. HE requires a high-velocity shockwave, while simply starting a fire is enough for BP or smokeless powder. I had assumed black powder/well-confined W231 or similar smokeless. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 1:45:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Add a booster charge at the igniter wire, and maybe a flyer plate that impacts the main charge.
Every weapons program I have worked had problems sorting out the fuzing. A couple were terrible and nearly paced the program. . |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 1:53:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am MOSTLY thinking of this as a igniting fuze. However, you can set off PETN with the shockwave off a vaporizing wire. Whether that's practical in the space limitation here or not is another question. You can set off absolutely anything with an electric detonator - just needs the right component(s) that fails in the correct manner. Some detonators incorporate a booster, so the primary sets off a small sensitive secondary, which in turn initiates the highly-stable main charge. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 1:55:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Add a booster charge at the igniter wire, and maybe a flyer plate that impacts the main charge. Every weapons program I have worked had problems sorting out the fuzing. A couple were terrible and nearly paced the program. . There maybe some interesting legality issues of actually making it a full on exploding bridgewire/slapper system, since those overlap into nuclear weapons control items. ETA: Check out this helpful lab report about initiating things with exploding wires, nice of us tax payers to pay for it. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 2:28:02 PM EDT
[#31]
The design of the grenade doesn't have to be a sphere. Nothing wrong with a cylindrical grenade.
Think RG41 or RG42, even the TRMR-LE flashbang, this could provide more room in the fuze.
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Posted: 4/7/2021 2:37:19 PM EDT
[#32]
In an old Army manual it talked about using an flashbulb (glass broken) set off by a small electrical charge to ignite whatever.
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Posted: 4/7/2021 2:38:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The design of the grenade doesn't have to be a sphere. Nothing wrong with a cylindrical grenade. Think RG41 or RG42, even the TRMR-LE flashbang, this could provide more room in the fuze. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 2:49:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not thinking it has to even be a grenade. I.E. if you want to Form 1 a trashbag or 55 gallon drum full of acetylene and oxygen, the fuze would work. No chemical bits in the fuze at all=fuze isn't regulated. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The design of the grenade doesn't have to be a sphere. Nothing wrong with a cylindrical grenade. Think RG41 or RG42, even the TRMR-LE flashbang, this could provide more room in the fuze.One interesting potential to that idea is that you could conceivably set it up to detonate with wires or even a wireless connection if you setup something like that instead of pull pin and throw if desired. Interesting but scary to think about carrying it around. What could possibly go wrong. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 2:57:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One interesting potential to that idea is that you could conceivably set it up to detonate with wires or even a wireless connection if you setup something like that instead of pull pin and throw if desired. Interesting but scary to think about carrying it around. What could possibly go wrong. Those are commonly sold by fireworks supply companies all year long. You can buy them with a remote that can control a dozen or more receivers. We don't need to re invent the we Heck, the cave dwellers of Afghanistan do it with cheap cellphones so you don't need to be within radio distance. Or motion/IR detectors from security lights or door sensors. I think the OP asked this question for the "pull pin-throw grenade" part |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 3:01:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For low order stuff, I'm assuming that as long as it is in contact with the wire, its going to work. I was thinking in terms of sealing the bottom of the fuze assembly with something, maybe even tape after filling it. There maybe some interesting legality issues of actually making it a full on exploding bridgewire/slapper system, since those overlap into nuclear weapons control items. ETA: Check out this helpful lab report about initiating things with exploding wires, nice of us tax payers to pay for it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Add a booster charge at the igniter wire, and maybe a flyer plate that impacts the main charge. Every weapons program I have worked had problems sorting out the fuzing. A couple were terrible and nearly paced the program. . There maybe some interesting legality issues of actually making it a full on exploding bridgewire/slapper system, since those overlap into nuclear weapons control items. ETA: Check out this helpful lab report about initiating things with exploding wires, nice of us tax payers to pay for it. You'll get a fire, not an explosion with an insensitive munition in the grenade body. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 3:11:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are commonly sold by fireworks supply companies all year long. You can buy them with a remote that can control a dozen or more receivers. We don't need to re invent the we Heck, the cave dwellers of Afghanistan do it with cheap cellphones so you don't need to be within radio distance. Or motion/IR detectors from security lights or door sensors. I think the OP asked this question for the "pull pin-throw grenade" part Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One interesting potential to that idea is that you could conceivably set it up to detonate with wires or even a wireless connection if you setup something like that instead of pull pin and throw if desired. Interesting but scary to think about carrying it around. What could possibly go wrong. Those are commonly sold by fireworks supply companies all year long. You can buy them with a remote that can control a dozen or more receivers. We don't need to re invent the we Heck, the cave dwellers of Afghanistan do it with cheap cellphones so you don't need to be within radio distance. Or motion/IR detectors from security lights or door sensors. I think the OP asked this question for the "pull pin-throw grenade" part I am interested enough as a concept in general for setting off DDs that I don't mind the discussion branching a little. The "output" end of a transistor dumping a capacitor into a wire could be triggered otherways than with a dumb timer. I may stick some connector holes on the board that could be used with wires to connect it a raspberry pi/arduino, whatever. You could still use a pin for the safety shorting function in that case. Connected to a raspberry pi, the joke about it playing an audio clip, or having a camera that recognized targets is not really a joke, and would be pretty doable. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 3:13:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'll get a fire, not an explosion with an insensitive munition in the grenade body. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Add a booster charge at the igniter wire, and maybe a flyer plate that impacts the main charge. Every weapons program I have worked had problems sorting out the fuzing. A couple were terrible and nearly paced the program. . There maybe some interesting legality issues of actually making it a full on exploding bridgewire/slapper system, since those overlap into nuclear weapons control items. ETA: Check out this helpful lab report about initiating things with exploding wires, nice of us tax payers to pay for it. You'll get a fire, not an explosion with an insensitive munition in the grenade body. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 3:31:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. If you have ever worked for DOD , you know you really really shuld be apprehensive about them having control of explosives strapped to your body. They can't manage rank and pay right 10% of the time... "so Frank I heard you got promoted" " yeah the computer should process it today some time..." *BOOOM* how about a 3 part system, IE 3 cylinders each progressively smaller, outer is say a ammonium nitrate compound(oxidizer) and has a tiny one way valve so it isn't air tight going out but IS to air going in. (AN LOVES water so this is critical), and the next is say pressurized nitromethane liquid(use CO2 or Pure N, so it CANT react) and a 3rd that is say blackpowder. Since the "detonator" isn't anything that is as I understand it a binary explosive, it isn't regulated(basically tannerite), and the BP being under a certain size is still ok. As you pull the pin the outer and middle cylinders interact (you now have ANNM which can easily go BOOM, and be detonated with BP as I understand things), then the third cylinder is still waiting. when the spoon flies up the fuse is lit(mechanically like olden times), and lights an old fashioned cannon fuse, when it hits BP charge in the 3rd cylinder you get ANNM mix to go boom, and then the main PETN charge. (not sure if ive got my filler charge correct). |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 4:20:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have ever worked for DOD , you know you really really shuld be apprehensive about them having control of explosives strapped to your body. They can't manage rank and pay right 10% of the time... "so Frank I heard you got promoted" " yeah the computer should process it today some time..." *BOOOM* how about a 3 part system, IE 3 cylinders each progressively smaller, outer is say a ammonium nitrate compound(oxidizer) and has a tiny one way valve so it isn't air tight going out but IS to air going in. (AN LOVES water so this is critical), and the next is say pressurized nitromethane liquid(use CO2 or Pure N, so it CANT react) and a 3rd that is say blackpowder. Since the "detonator" isn't anything that is as I understand it a binary explosive, it isn't regulated(basically tannerite), and the BP being under a certain size is still ok. As you pull the pin the outer and middle cylinders interact (you now have ANNM which can easily go BOOM, and be detonated with BP as I understand things), then the third cylinder is still waiting. when the spoon flies up the fuse is lit(mechanically like olden times), and lights an old fashioned cannon fuse, when it hits BP charge in the 3rd cylinder you get ANNM mix to go boom, and then the main PETN charge. (not sure if ive got my filler charge correct). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. If you have ever worked for DOD , you know you really really shuld be apprehensive about them having control of explosives strapped to your body. They can't manage rank and pay right 10% of the time... "so Frank I heard you got promoted" " yeah the computer should process it today some time..." *BOOOM* how about a 3 part system, IE 3 cylinders each progressively smaller, outer is say a ammonium nitrate compound(oxidizer) and has a tiny one way valve so it isn't air tight going out but IS to air going in. (AN LOVES water so this is critical), and the next is say pressurized nitromethane liquid(use CO2 or Pure N, so it CANT react) and a 3rd that is say blackpowder. Since the "detonator" isn't anything that is as I understand it a binary explosive, it isn't regulated(basically tannerite), and the BP being under a certain size is still ok. As you pull the pin the outer and middle cylinders interact (you now have ANNM which can easily go BOOM, and be detonated with BP as I understand things), then the third cylinder is still waiting. when the spoon flies up the fuse is lit(mechanically like olden times), and lights an old fashioned cannon fuse, when it hits BP charge in the 3rd cylinder you get ANNM mix to go boom, and then the main PETN charge. (not sure if ive got my filler charge correct). Right now, I'm just going to focus on this lighting BP or similar in the actual DD. It wouldn't take much flashover to absolutely ruin your day with something like BP as the filling. Keep the ideas coming though, even ones I'm not personally going to use are awesome. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 4:27:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have ever worked for DOD , you know you really really shuld be apprehensive about them having control of explosives strapped to your body. They can't manage rank and pay right 10% of the time... "so Frank I heard you got promoted" " yeah the computer should process it today some time..." *BOOOM* how about a 3 part system, IE 3 cylinders each progressively smaller, outer is say a ammonium nitrate compound(oxidizer) and has a tiny one way valve so it isn't air tight going out but IS to air going in. (AN LOVES water so this is critical), and the next is say pressurized nitromethane liquid(use CO2 or Pure N, so it CANT react) and a 3rd that is say blackpowder. Since the "detonator" isn't anything that is as I understand it a binary explosive, it isn't regulated(basically tannerite), and the BP being under a certain size is still ok. As you pull the pin the outer and middle cylinders interact (you now have ANNM which can easily go BOOM, and be detonated with BP as I understand things), then the third cylinder is still waiting. when the spoon flies up the fuse is lit(mechanically like olden times), and lights an old fashioned cannon fuse, when it hits BP charge in the 3rd cylinder you get ANNM mix to go boom, and then the main PETN charge. (not sure if ive got my filler charge correct). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Uh, op you literally have idea worth millions here. Imagine battery powered grenades, go fight war after a year grenades you left are now either worthless or can be command detonated via a satellite. If you have ever worked for DOD , you know you really really shuld be apprehensive about them having control of explosives strapped to your body. They can't manage rank and pay right 10% of the time... "so Frank I heard you got promoted" " yeah the computer should process it today some time..." *BOOOM* how about a 3 part system, IE 3 cylinders each progressively smaller, outer is say a ammonium nitrate compound(oxidizer) and has a tiny one way valve so it isn't air tight going out but IS to air going in. (AN LOVES water so this is critical), and the next is say pressurized nitromethane liquid(use CO2 or Pure N, so it CANT react) and a 3rd that is say blackpowder. Since the "detonator" isn't anything that is as I understand it a binary explosive, it isn't regulated(basically tannerite), and the BP being under a certain size is still ok. As you pull the pin the outer and middle cylinders interact (you now have ANNM which can easily go BOOM, and be detonated with BP as I understand things), then the third cylinder is still waiting. when the spoon flies up the fuse is lit(mechanically like olden times), and lights an old fashioned cannon fuse, when it hits BP charge in the 3rd cylinder you get ANNM mix to go boom, and then the main PETN charge. (not sure if ive got my filler charge correct). Too many steps. Electric heater, vials of sulfuric and nitric acid in a chamber filled with glycerol. It's one better than a binary explosive, right? |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 4:31:15 PM EDT
[#42]
I've had a similar idea, but mechanical in nature, vs electronic.
You should be able to use a clockwork/escapement mechanism to provide a delay before dropping a spring loaded firing pin. The bottom of your clockwork fuze could have a shell-holder to insert a blank cartridge of your choosing to act as the initiator/detonator. (The blank not necessarily being loaded with straight smokeless powder). You could combine this with your electronic fuze: a spring loaded firing pin released with a solenoid or other electrical component. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 5:43:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are commonly sold by fireworks supply companies all year long. You can buy them with a remote that can control a dozen or more receivers. We don't need to re invent the we Heck, the cave dwellers of Afghanistan do it with cheap cellphones so you don't need to be within radio distance. Or motion/IR detectors from security lights or door sensors. I think the OP asked this question for the "pull pin-throw grenade" part Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One interesting potential to that idea is that you could conceivably set it up to detonate with wires or even a wireless connection if you setup something like that instead of pull pin and throw if desired. Interesting but scary to think about carrying it around. What could possibly go wrong. Those are commonly sold by fireworks supply companies all year long. You can buy them with a remote that can control a dozen or more receivers. We don't need to re invent the we Heck, the cave dwellers of Afghanistan do it with cheap cellphones so you don't need to be within radio distance. Or motion/IR detectors from security lights or door sensors. I think the OP asked this question for the "pull pin-throw grenade" part I read it as being interested in the grenade part. I was just commenting that doing it electronically like that might open up some further options. You would have a grenade that you could potentially setup to be setoff electronically be a wired or wireless connection depending on options and connections. It would make an incredibly versatile grenade if it went bang when desired and didn't go bang when it shouldn't. If nothing else picture a motion sensor attachment w/ a time delay to get out of range.
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Posted: 4/7/2021 6:03:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am MOSTLY thinking of this as a igniting fuze. However, you can set off PETN with the shockwave off a vaporizing wire. Whether that's practical in the space limitation here or not is another question. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you trying to light something on fire, or initiate a stable high explosive? Cannon fuse, or anything that "just burns" is not enough to set off a CompB filler, for instance. HE requires a high-velocity shockwave, while simply starting a fire is enough for BP or smokeless powder. I had assumed black powder/well-confined W231 or similar smokeless. PETN? Nope. Nope nope nope. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 6:05:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had a similar idea, but mechanical in nature, vs electronic. You should be able to use a clockwork/escapement mechanism to provide a delay before dropping a spring loaded firing pin. The bottom of your clockwork fuze could have a shell-holder to insert a blank cartridge of your choosing to act as the initiator/detonator. (The blank not necessarily being loaded with straight smokeless powder). You could combine this with your electronic fuze: a spring loaded firing pin released with a solenoid or other electrical component. I'm listening. Go on... |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 6:06:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had a similar idea, but mechanical in nature, vs electronic. You should be able to use a clockwork/escapement mechanism to provide a delay before dropping a spring loaded firing pin. The bottom of your clockwork fuze could have a shell-holder to insert a blank cartridge of your choosing to act as the initiator/detonator. (The blank not necessarily being loaded with straight smokeless powder). You could combine this with your electronic fuze: a spring loaded firing pin released with a solenoid or other electrical component. On the blank firing idea, you'd need a plugged barrel with vents out the side based on the can launchers. Otherwise our friends are going to call it a firearm at best and an AOW at worst after they set off a live round with it. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 6:33:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I personally like the idea of a wholly electronic fuze without a ton of moving parts. On the blank firing idea, you'd need a plugged barrel with vents out the side based on the can launchers. Otherwise our friends are going to call it a firearm at best and an AOW at worst after they set off a live round with it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've had a similar idea, but mechanical in nature, vs electronic. You should be able to use a clockwork/escapement mechanism to provide a delay before dropping a spring loaded firing pin. The bottom of your clockwork fuze could have a shell-holder to insert a blank cartridge of your choosing to act as the initiator/detonator. (The blank not necessarily being loaded with straight smokeless powder). You could combine this with your electronic fuze: a spring loaded firing pin released with a solenoid or other electrical component. On the blank firing idea, you'd need a plugged barrel with vents out the side based on the can launchers. Otherwise our friends are going to call it a firearm at best and an AOW at worst after they set off a live round with it. Not necessary. You have the spring and firing pin wholly inside the grenade, with the only sufficient room left in the grenade for a 209 shotgun primer, so no live round of any caliber could fit.. Only need a tiny sliver of space for that primer to set off a main charge. |
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Posted: 4/7/2021 7:33:40 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I personally like the idea of a wholly electronic fuze without a ton of moving parts. On the blank firing idea, you'd need a plugged barrel with vents out the side based on the can launchers. Otherwise our friends are going to call it a firearm at best and an AOW at worst after they set off a live round with it. I'm admittedly not up to date on the ATF's latest nonsense, but I don't think it needs a barrel at all. (I'd need to look at the text of the statutes, but "no barrel" should put it outside some of the firearms definitions) It really wouldn't be much different than all those shotshell tripwire noisemaker gadgets. |
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Posted: 4/8/2021 10:09:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Not necessary. You have the spring and firing pin wholly inside the grenade, with the only sufficient room left in the grenade for a 209 shotgun primer, so no live round of any caliber could fit.. Only need a tiny sliver of space for that primer to set off a main charge. Quoted: I'm admittedly not up to date on the ATF's latest nonsense, but I don't think it needs a barrel at all. (I'd need to look at the text of the statutes, but "no barrel" should put it outside some of the firearms definitions) It really wouldn't be much different than all those shotshell tripwire noisemaker gadgets. This is probably a classical arfcom get both situation. The fun part is that I've gone from a completely simple timing board to one that has inputs to connect it to a microcontroller/computer, and I've added solenoid driving. ETA: How much value, if any, is there in designing in multiple delay times? I have a lot of extra space on the board due to the battery size, and I can put in extra surface mount resistors and traces so you can cut the trace of your chosing to set the delay. If I did it, what delay times would be desired? Basically the timer I'm using can do 100 microseconds to 7200 seconds. |
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Posted: 4/8/2021 10:29:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright you guys convinced me to add a big enough transistor to the board (basically an extra 30 cents) to drive a solenoid. This is probably a classical arfcom get both situation. The fun part is that I've gone from a completely simple timing board to one that has inputs to connect it to a microcontroller/computer, and I've added solenoid driving. ETA: How much value, if any, is there in designing in multiple delay times? I have a lot of extra space on the board due to the battery size, and I can put in extra surface mount resistors and traces so you can cut the trace of your chosing to set the delay. If I did it, what delay times would be desired? Basically the timer I'm using can do 100 microseconds to 7200 seconds. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not necessary. You have the spring and firing pin wholly inside the grenade, with the only sufficient room left in the grenade for a 209 shotgun primer, so no live round of any caliber could fit.. Only need a tiny sliver of space for that primer to set off a main charge. Quoted: I'm admittedly not up to date on the ATF's latest nonsense, but I don't think it needs a barrel at all. (I'd need to look at the text of the statutes, but "no barrel" should put it outside some of the firearms definitions) It really wouldn't be much different than all those shotshell tripwire noisemaker gadgets. This is probably a classical arfcom get both situation. The fun part is that I've gone from a completely simple timing board to one that has inputs to connect it to a microcontroller/computer, and I've added solenoid driving. ETA: How much value, if any, is there in designing in multiple delay times? I have a lot of extra space on the board due to the battery size, and I can put in extra surface mount resistors and traces so you can cut the trace of your chosing to set the delay. If I did it, what delay times would be desired? Basically the timer I'm using can do 100 microseconds to 7200 seconds. Simplicity is key. The only thing I'd add at the expense of complicating things is a safety. A project like this you want to focus first on proving it can be done, and safely so. Then worry about adding to it. |
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