Help me build a secure interior wall!...Is now safe room build thread! - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Help me build a secure interior wall!...Is now safe room build thread! (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 8/6/2017 11:12:32 AM EDT

I was originally planning on using concrete blocks poured with concrete and rebar to build the wall that will hold my gun room. I am now changing my mind due to the weight of the concrete on the basement floor. So, I am wanting options to build this wall to make it as hard to penetrate as possible, while still keeping it lightweight and affordable.

The specifics are the room is a corner basement room enclosed on three sides by the concrete foundation. Adding this 11' 6" long wall that is 8' tall will enclose the rest of the room. I plan on having a light "vault door" on it for entry. The vault door might still be concealed from view by some sort of shelving unit, but that's another project altogether. The point being, this room jets out from the rest of the basement so most would not even know it's there (It's a porch on top).

I am considering all options, but my current thought process is this.

a 2x6 framed wall with 2x6 studs every 6". Rebar would be run horizontally through the boards maybe every 6" up. On the outside facing wall, there would be layers starting with metal screen type material. Unknown specifics but something tough. The next layer would be concrete board of some type. Maybe some backerboard for tile of some type. Likely the thicker stuff. Last would be 1/2" plywood. Then drywall would go over that to finish it off to simply make it look like every other wall. On the inside of the wall, I am thinking some sort of steel plating lag bolted to the 2x6's from the inside.

I'm open to other thought processes. I know it won't be "fire proof" or anything, but I want it to be difficult for any devoted criminal with time to get in. I want the layers to take multiple types of cutting tools to be able to get through it. I know a plasma cutter will get you through just about anything, but we aren't going there.

TL;DR......How would you build a vandal proof wall?

Posted: 8/6/2017 11:40:13 AM EDT

[#1]

I think you are on the right track. Security is measured in how much time it takes to defeat it......that's all

Posted: 8/6/2017 11:41:39 AM EDT

[#2]

9 gauge steel mesh, 1/2" plywood over that, then drywall. Honestly, with out tools and time, your not getting through.

Posted: 8/6/2017 1:40:17 PM EDT

[#3]

If you're worried about somebody cutting through the rebar, you could use smaller sections and run it inside conduit. This makes cutting it a bit more difficult as it will rotate within the conduit.

Posted: 8/6/2017 3:46:06 PM EDT

[#4]

^^^See, that's brilliant! I need more ideas like that!

Posted: 8/7/2017 12:11:06 PM EDT

[#5]

You could cut the basement slab, dig down about 24", fill with gravel 12" deep", compact, then pour a 1'-4" wide by 12" deep strip footing to support your CMU wall. The top of the footing would match the top of the floor.

Posted: 8/28/2017 12:20:16 AM EDT

[#6]

Interesting project.

If it was me, I'd do 2x4 studs at 16" spacing, rockwool insulation, then expanded metal mesh screwed on from the outside. Cover that with two layers of type X drywall, and nobody is getting through it quickly. Maybe even use adhesive between the mesh and drywall so they can't be attacked individually? Not sure if that'd work how I'm thinking.

Forget the rebar tricks. Expanded mesh covered in drywall has be used for decades to protect pharmacies, hospitals, gun stores, etc.

Posted: 9/9/2017 5:22:07 PM EDT

[#7]

Well the wall is framed and rebar is in. I went with 2x6 framed wall with 6" on centers. Every few 2x6's I ran rebar through. Nothing fancy, just a lot of 21-22" sections. The rebar is staggered between the framing.

Door is a rough opening for a Smith vault door.

I plan on hardibacker board then drywall on exterior of the wall, and 1/8" steel plating on the inside.

Still open to suggestions.

Posted: 9/11/2017 12:06:20 PM EDT

[#8]

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Well the wall is framed and rebar is in. I went with 2x6 framed wall with 6" on centers. Every few 2x6's I ran rebar through. Nothing fancy, just a lot of 21-22" sections. The rebar is staggered between the framing.

Door is a rough opening for a Smith vault door.

I plan on hardibacker board then drywall on exterior of the wall, and 1/8" steel plating on the inside.

Still open to suggestions.

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21371006_188693058340468_1710711911526660244_n.jpg?oh=464432a20eb950d236972f2a8b2714b9&oe=5A4C0893

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Very cool, planning on doing the same! I have had my door for som time.

Posted: 9/11/2017 10:00:12 PM EDT

[#9]

I like adding the mesh idea, as someone could just take a sawzall and cut horizontally in two locations and be in, except the plate you plan on putting in...

Posted: 9/12/2017 4:16:54 PM EDT

[#10]

If it was me, I would have used cast in place concrete or reinforced CMU.

Since you already have the studs up, I would put up a mesh. That is what we used for secure rooms for border patrol buildings. But for those rooms, we use metal studs, not wood studs.

Posted: 9/13/2017 6:21:16 PM EDT

[#11]

Thirds on the expanded sheet steel on the outside (screwed down with washers). the hardi board does not add much if any strength for this situation I don't think (not fire rated either). How about a good spray foam to tie it all together, your rebar, the studs, the expanded sheet.

Posted: 9/14/2017 6:41:01 PM EDT

[#12]

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Thirds on the expanded sheet steel on the outside (screwed down with washers). the hardi board does not add much if any strength for this situation I don't think (not fire rated either). How about a good spray foam to tie it all together, your rebar, the studs, the expanded sheet.

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Hardiebacker has been used in these situations as one of the many layers to help in the chewing up of saw blades. The key to building something like what the OP is going for is many layers of various materials. You want the attacker to work hard to get in. Multiple layers of drywall, plywood, and metal are important. I would do something layered from inside out like so: hardiebacker, two layers of plywood (one vertical and one horizontal), security mesh, and then drywall for your finished look. All layers should be secured to the studs as well, so you will need longer screws as you layer.

Posted: 9/16/2017 7:20:09 AM EDT

[#13]

Just use two layers of 3/4" plywood. They've shown it takes just as long as to get through as the expanded metal with plywood.

As has been pointed out a security system is the best defense. Without someone responding to a break in, intruders have all day to break through the wall.

Posted: 9/16/2017 8:07:21 AM EDT

[#14]

however you do it, put your cutting tools on the inside of the room

and install a whole house monitored security system

without a monitored security system thieves have all the time in the world to get into your room.

Also conceal the room. They cant break into the room if they dont see it, especially if they are running through the house as the alarm is going off trying to find something valuable to take before the cops get there.

and last but not least reinforce the entry doors to the basement with steel so they can not be breached easily. If they have trouble getting into the basement and tge slarm us going off, they wont get anywhere near the concealed room built like a tank.

It is all about layers. You can not stop easily, all you can do is slow them down alot.

Also install motion flood lights and security cameras.

So as a tldr recap:

motion flood lights
security cameras
reinforced outside doors
monitored security system
big dogd
hardened doors to basement
concealed door to room
hardened walls and door to room
Cutting tools in room
safe in room
safe detonation explosives in case they gain entry to safe

Posted: 9/16/2017 11:25:00 AM EDT

[#15]

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You could cut the basement slab, dig down about 24", fill with gravel 12" deep", compact, then pour a 1'-4" wide by 12" deep strip footing to support your CMU wall. The top of the footing would match the top of the floor.

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You should do this. Use pipe with greased rod stock inside it for more saw resistance.

Posted: 9/24/2017 12:37:10 AM EDT

[#16]

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You should do this. Use pipe with greased rod stock inside it for more saw resistance.

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It's a little late for this. Plus, I don't want to do this.

Posted: 9/27/2017 10:37:46 PM EDT

[#17]

Well I got some 1/2" plywood up on the exterior today. About 200 3" deck screws hold it in place.

I'm thinking the vault door will clamp to the plywood opening, and then I will do hardi backer butted right up the the edge of the vault door. Then, I can tile the entire wall right up to the edge of the vault door(Don't want to clamp the safe door onto tile as I feel it will most likely cause stress and cracks).

Posted: 9/28/2017 12:02:50 PM EDT

[#18]

What are you doing to the ceiling?

I think the best defense you'll get is hiding everything, maybe even put a cheap gun safe somewhere out in the open.

Posted: 9/28/2017 10:00:58 PM EDT

[#19]

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What are you doing to the ceiling?

I think the best defense you'll get is hiding everything, maybe even put a cheap gun safe somewhere out in the open.

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The ceiling will have steel plating lag bolted to the joists, with a drop ceiling below that.

Ordered my vault door today. In a few weeks the fun part is going to be getting it into the basement.

Posted: 9/28/2017 11:11:08 PM EDT

[#20]

covering the plywood with surface bonding cement so it looks like a parged block wall might deter thieves a bit.

Posted: 9/29/2017 9:05:19 AM EDT

[#21]

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covering the plywood with surface bonding cement so it looks like a parged block wall might deter thieves a bit.

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I think I am going to do a thinset sandwiched layer of 1/4" backerboard then finish the wall with some wood plank looking ceramic tile. So basically a layer of thinset, 1/4" backerboard, then thinset then tile.

This would give plenty of layered protection for my needs.

I also have a full reolink camera system and a few other layers of protection.

Posted: 9/29/2017 4:56:42 PM EDT

[#22]

I would put security mesh, after securing the security mesh to the existing plywood, use construction adhesive and put up another layer of plywood and screw it down also. You want to use adhesive between layers makes it harder to get apart if they get to the screws.

http://www.clarkdietrich.com/products/security-systems/barrier-mesh-security

Posted: 9/29/2017 5:45:23 PM EDT

[#23]

Great thread, looking to do the same some day. Jumping in a little late, but my $0.02
- Use liquid nails wherever possible
- Use some connectors from "Simpson" like these: simpson strong-tie
- Make sure sill plates are bolted to the ground and tops of wall equally secured (Simpson has all kinds of tough looking connectors)
- Maybe some blocking between studs if you can get in there
- The metal mesh looks like a good idea

Posted: 9/29/2017 7:42:35 PM EDT

[#24]

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I would put security mesh, after securing the security mesh to the existing plywood, use construction adhesive and put up another layer of plywood and screw it down also. You want to use adhesive between layers makes it harder to get apart if they get to the screws.

http://www.clarkdietrich.com/products/security-systems/barrier-mesh-security

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I would have to echo the importance of more layers, particularly plywood and mesh. The tile that you’re doing unfortunately won’t count as a security layer IMO since it is on the outside and is defeated with a sledgehammer rather quickly.

The key to layering is two fold: various material and thickness. Think about it- a thick wall of different construction material would take multiple passes and blade changes to gain access to the inside. I can understand your argument for minimal protection since other measures in place though.

Posted: 9/30/2017 11:20:54 AM EDT

[#25]

I always like the idea of a decoy safe, cheap lightweight gunsafe a couple people can carry away easily. Keep some old tools in it slap on a couple gun manufacturer stickers. They will think they got a easy score and leave with the decoy.

Posted: 9/30/2017 11:58:20 AM EDT

[#26]

I like what youre doing, Im building a safe room/gun room this winter in my basement and had planned on using CMU concrete block backfilled with concrete and rebar, but I may just go this route instead. Where you only need 1 wall, Id need to build 2 as Im using to of the foundation walls as well. Im building a square room using to foundation walls 90 degrees to each other and would build 2 walls as shown to complete the square is what Im trying to say

Posted: 10/2/2017 8:24:25 PM EDT

[#27]

Today I got a layer of 1/4" hardi backer in place.

There will be tile over this. I get that a sledge hammer "could" break through this. But lets be real, there are over 200 screws holding the hardi to the 1/2" plywood with a layer of thinset between that. Then, the plywood has over 200 3" deck screws holding it to the 2by6 framed wall on 6" centers. Then rebar. Then steel plating or whatever I go with on the INSIDE.

Layers. Your hammer may break up some exterior fancy tile, but it's not going through it. After a few swings you are likely getting shot by me or one of my coworkers anyways. Unless you managed to get past the cameras, or my nosey neighbors. Assuming you found a time I'm not even here. Assuming you even had the balls to go into the room that this room is attached to. I don't have a guard dog, I have snakes.

Posted: 10/4/2017 9:50:48 AM EDT

[#28]

You have guard snakes roaming your house?

Posted: 10/4/2017 10:30:02 PM EDT

[#29]

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You have guard snakes roaming your house?

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Not roaming, but most don't want to be anywhere near them. Even when caged!

Posted: 10/5/2017 6:41:31 PM EDT

[#30]

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Not roaming, but most don't want to be anywhere near them. Even when caged!

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I'm imagining your like the snake guy in next of kin. Well minus the school bus.

Posted: 10/17/2017 2:27:47 PM EDT

[#31]

What method did you use to secure the wall to the floor? What is the best method of doing this so someone does just have to smack the bottom of the wall out to knock it down? I'm looking to build something similar under my stairs.

Posted: 10/17/2017 4:49:45 PM EDT

[#32]

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What method did you use to secure the wall to the floor? What is the best method of doing this so someone does just have to smack the bottom of the wall out to knock it down? I'm looking to build something similar under my stairs.

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The bottom plate is nailed to the concrete floor.

Posted: 10/17/2017 9:29:48 PM EDT

[#33]

Is it nailed any differently than any other anchor plate? Will that hold up to a few good hits with a sledge hammer?

Posted: 10/23/2017 7:26:03 AM EDT

[#34]

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Is it nailed any differently than any other anchor plate? Will that hold up to a few good hits with a sledge hammer?

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When I built mine I used extra long Tapcons every 18" or so. I seriously doubt its getting knocked loose with a sledge hammer.

Posted: 10/28/2017 5:58:15 PM EDT

[#35]

It's nailed down for now but I have considered some concrete screws.

It's going to be REALLY hard to move it with a sledge hammer. Since it's 2by6's it's MUCH wider than a typical wall. I also built the frame one stud at a time and wedged them in(instead of building the wall and placing it in place). With all the different ways it's connected I THINK it would hold up to most of what someone could get down there.

Posted: 12/7/2017 9:31:59 PM EDT

[#36]

Some of the insulation is done. Interior wall is done. I have 4 can lights in place. Not sure if I want a center light, but need to decide before I finish the ceiling/walls. If I do a center light I need to put in a centered box soon.

I also tapped into my duct work and put a "T" in place and ran a register in the ceiling. I was pretty excited at how well this all went together.

I am "almost" ready for drywall. I have a few 2by8 cross sectioned between the joists. I was either going to do a BUNCH of those with rebar, or go with 1/8' steel plating inside the joists. Waiting for my estimate to get back to me on that.

This room is also going to double as my bourbon room. My Smith door should be here in about a week!

This shows the register I put in and a few cans. Along with a few cross sections. Some of these may get moved depending on where the steel goes.

Running the duct work. This is also above where I will have a custom recessed shelf. I may use that extra wire to hard wire a couple LED lights to the top of this shelf. Shelf will be custom Walnut with glass shelves that sits recessed inside the framing. I will have some nicer pistols and bourbons on this shelf so lighting will be nice.

The far right side when you walk in. Might have a few cabinets and a work station here. Still need to figure out what I want to do for the wall on the right. Some sort of hanging system to mount guns on.

Posted: 12/9/2017 10:27:45 AM EDT

[#37]

For hanging, if you're on a budget, I recommend cheappegboard.com. it's scratch and dent wall control stuff, but most I have gotten were just returns with no original packaging but no damage. They are strong, and look pretty good.

Posted: 12/11/2017 8:34:45 PM EDT

[#38]

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For hanging, if you're on a budget, I recommend cheappegboard.com. it's scratch and dent wall control stuff, but most I have gotten were just returns with no original packaging but no damage. They are strong, and look pretty good.

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Thanks for the link. I’ll be going with these at least in my garage first to see how I like them.

Posted: 12/29/2017 11:39:14 PM EDT

[#39]

Update....Got the safe door to the house. Now the fun part is to get it into that stairwell behind it to the basement. My plan is to anchor the door to some chains and use a small tractor to lift it up over the concrete wall sideways then lower it into the stairwell. Then from in the stairwell we plan on manhandling it in through the doorway. Door is over 600 pounds.

Since the side edge isn't flat, and I don't want to sit it on that edge or tear it up, I had to build a small frame that will support the door in the center. But at the same time, not press against the door locking bars(so a simple long board wouldn't work). Came up with this idea. Base is a 2by8. Couple 2by4's on side then 1/2" plywood between the locking bolts. This allows the locking bots inside the flange to sit between the plywood and not be pressed against.

The door already has (4) 1/2"x13 welded nuts in the frame on each side for the mounting brackets. I found a few hooks and carabineer things that are rated for the weight to mount to them. Hoping for the best when hoisting this thing up on its side. A failure while it's up in the air could potentially be deadly so I need to make sure this part is done safely. I'm considering using 2 of these hooks on each side "just in case". I don't know what strength the actual bolts can hold before shearing off.

Posted: 1/9/2018 1:11:39 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I was originally planning on using concrete blocks poured with concrete and rebar to build the wall that will hold my gun room. I am now changing my mind due to the weight of the concrete on the basement floor.

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Good decision.

The point being, this room jets out from the rest of the basement so most would not even know it's there (It's a porch on top).

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What is the porch made out of? Is it timber framing or is it the conventional 6 inch 3,000 psi concrete slab with AIC minimum steel mesh? If so, then the porch (ceiling of your new safe) may be the most vulnerable point. Someone with a hammer drill could make a man-size hole in the slab and be off with a sizable part of your collection in the time it would take you to do to dinner with your family (and in less time than it takes many police departments to respond to an alarm call).

How would you build a vandal proof wall?

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First recognize that what you are building is a partition that will only be secured to the existing structure around its perimeter. This means the center of the wall, where your door is likely to be located will be the structure's weakest point.

Second, if you do decide to use timber construction, make all your connections using screws, not nails. If you screw it together, all of your joints will be significantly more rigid than if you just nail it together.

You are already talking about considerable expense. Spend a little more and get a consultation from the structural engineer at a reputable architectural-engineering firm or consulting engineering firm. The $500 or so you pay getting advice from someone who knows what they are doing could end up saving your whole collection.

Posted: 1/11/2018 9:33:34 AM EDT

[#41]

A few suggestions. plywood on both sides under the drywall. Makes a really strong room. Use a UL listed fire door. I worked for a money hauler and we used UL listed fire doors for all of the secure rooms that did not need vault doors. We also used electric locks.

Posted: 1/23/2018 12:16:05 AM EDT

[#42]

Door is in. I'll try to make better progress on this room now that the door is in.

Posted: 1/27/2018 10:08:47 PM EDT

[#43]

Any exciting stories getting that thing down into the basement? Quite a bit of buildup in your previous post....

Posted: 1/28/2018 8:29:58 PM EDT

[#44]

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Any exciting stories getting that thing down into the basement? Quite a bit of buildup in your previous post....

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@FSAL.

It went really smoothly getting it down. The tow truck lowered it right in.

I’m drywalling the room now. Hoping to have it dry walled by next week.