Ok, so I am a complete newb in the full auto game.

I am having trouble when I see a handful of different guns and deciding exactly what I want.

I'd like to hear of a few sites or places from which I can purchase a gun.  I've heard of sturmwhegr, dealernfa, and otbfirearms.

Let's say I would like to get a bigger ticket item out of the way this year and pick up a full auto MP5.  What would be the best route to pick one up?

I'm open to various options and critiques.

Lots of discussions here - start using search. Others can advise on the best sources from a price and selection perspective. Unfortunately, if the ATF brace rule moves forward as announced, the NFA branch could be buried for years, presumably impacting approval times for all NFA firearms including MGs. If you can find what you want in stock in your state, that could significantly streamline the process.

25-40k to get into the legit NFA MG world.

Nah, you can get a MAC and some Lage uppers or like a 1919 for less than that.

The question is do you want sub guns, full auto rifle or a tried crew served machine gun?

How much flexability do you want or need? Are you only going to shoot it in the original caliber?

How much money you got? Haha An HK Mp5 you're talking big money. Probably around $50K. I would try and get a registered sear or registered trigger pack instead of a registered receiver. The sear or trigger pack you can turn any HK roller locked gun into a machine gun with it. With a registered receiver, you are locked into that one gun only.

Best deal would most likely local or in state.  

Go find where the MG guys in your area shoot, or a class 3 dealer that has been around a couple decades and ask if anyone knows anything.  

Start making friends and connections.

MG guys tend to know most of the others in an area, still a small community.

lol, not yet.

MACS are skyrocketting due to the uppers available. I bet they will be 15k plus this time next year.

There are a number of guys holding mgs for sale currently all over.
PM me directly for questions.

I know I would not sell my registered sear MP5 for less than 50K.  Don't know where to find one either.  Used to be dealernfa.com had some in stock but now.....

Just checked.  He has some now.  $56K base line for a sear gun.

I'd say Mac and M16 are the current most configurable. Mac is going up in price due to this. I think I've had mine ~2 years and it's "value" has roughly doubled in that time. If you go Mac get a Large Max 31 and a Max 15. Worth it. Gives you a great drum fed 9mm upper and an upper that can do everything an M16 can.

I think its already been said, but buy a HK Sear not a registered receiver. That gives you flexibility to put it in different host guns.

Another thing to consider is what you like to shoot.

Unless you have some serious deep pockets you will want to focus on your favorite guns first to make sure you check those off the list.

I picked up an M16 first as it was at the top of my bucket list to own. I impulse bought a M11 back when they were about half the rice they are now. Def a fun gun. Still want a belt fed but the models I want are currently out of my price range.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I don't feel that is true. A M16 can run a 9mm, 5.56X45, and 300 BLK OUT belt fed uppers that are commercially available. The Lage can not. There is also the AM15 upper for the M16 that is based on the American 180 drum fed  .22lr machinegun. For that matter a simple  .22lr conversion is no longer made for the M11/NINE. There are people working on stuff but who knows when or even if any  .22lr conversions will be commercially available. There are multiple options for the M16.

From the manufacturer the Lage Max-11/15 is a one trick pony. The barrel gets hot, let it sit and cool off. The big advantage of the M16 is push two pins and change uppers/calibers. Again there are those working on using barrel change systems designed for a takedown type of system for an AR to be used with the Max-11/15. With such a system the barrel can be changed without tools. Since this quick change barrel system was designed for a takedown rifle system, I know of no one that has thousands of rounds of use in a machinegun application for this system. Yes, the barrel can be changed, but if changing calibers, there is the issue of changing the bolt out of the Lage system carrier. That might be challenging for some to do at the range. Drop  the firing pin retainer in the dirt could end the  range session. Where as the push two pins, pull the complete upper off, install a fresh upper, push the two pins back in, and back to shooting your machinegun with the M16. Unless you spend three grand per complete Lage uppers, there is no quick switch caliber change with the Lage system. The Lage system has certainly given the Mac style registered receivers more versatility, but the Lage system has no where near the versatility that a M16 has, as far as I am concerned. YMMV.

Scott

As other people have said:  a HK sear will set you back about $50k.
If you are looking for versatility M10/M11, M16, and HK sear (in increasing order of price) would be the way to go.
Some people like historic guns.  Others like belt fed.  Others just really like a versatile gun to shoot.  It's really up to you.
My main advice to you would be to think hard about what you want and aim for that.  It is a big purchase and you want to be happy if you are shelling out that kind of cash.

The HK sear pack has gone full retard in price.  If they were still like $10k I would recommend that since shooting pistol calibers is generally more fun than rifle calibers out of a shoulder fired gun, at least for me.  You can shoot 9mm out of an M16 but it's probably direct blowback and inferior to roller delayed blowback.  Radial delayed blowback is better than direct but still not as good as roller delayed.  

I've got an HK sear pack and a MAC but I personally am more interested in WW1 and WW2 machineguns now.  We are approaching a time when all transferables are going to be C&R guns anyway, even though I'm younger than '86 Hughes .  I'm using my C&R for transferring a ??? light machine gun.

As far as buying, dealernfa is legit and if you send Ruben a massive check he will send a machinegun to your dealer.

You have an interesting opinion that is based on facts and assumptions.

Yes, a Max15 can do everything an M16 can. Every caliber you can feed an M16 can go through a Max15. It's quite literally an AR bolt and barrel in a different upper and carrier.

So far you are the only one who has brought up different feed methods in a thread that has been primarily about magazine fed MG options. Give it time and enough interest and Mr. Lage will probably have a belt fed upper for the Mac. I'd be surprised if there are not a few floating around. There are 12ga and 308 uppers for the M10 around. Can't do 308 from a magazine on the M16 and I've never seen a belt fed 308 upper for M16. I have seen essentially MG42 uppers for AR though. Probably would run on an M16.

Lage upper has disadvantages when it comes to quick caliber changes in the same upper but if I'm going to go between pistol calibers and rifle calibers I'll just bring my Max31 and Max15 out. 45ACP for the OE hose, Max31 with a 72rnd easy to load 9mm drum, and Max15 in 7.62x39 or 5.45 or 300blk or 6mm arc or 556 or 50beo! Maybe run a dolos system or similar and change out barrels quickly for those caliber changes you claim cannot happen! Might even be a decent way to do quick barrel changes to let barrels cool.

Pulling a Lage upper of any kind off is not difficult. If you can't figure it out you probably have no business even attempting to clean your own guns. Push a single pin and it's loose. With the Max15 you have the extra steps of insertion a magazine in the receiver magwell and pulling the bolt back to lock it in.

In all my time with MGs and MG guys and SOTs I've never had any one of them come out with a bag of uppers for their M16s so they could run different calibers at the range. Every one of them puts the upper they want on it then packs it up and heads out so quick caliber changes at the range seems to be pretty moot. Same sorry for the guys I personally know with Macs and Lage uppers.

In reality your opinion (and mine) is really moot when it comes down to what people want and can afford. Not everyone can afford $30k for an M16. A whole lot more people can afford $10k (1/3 the price) for an M10. Hell, I've got just over $10k I to my M10/45 with some 50+ mags, several Lage uppers (max 15 is $3200 by its self) and parts kits for spares. Hell, the cheapest M16 my LGS has ever sold was $16k which was the day before I bought my Mac.

Would I like an M16? Sure. $30k is the down payment on a rental property around here. Smarter decision for me than another toy. I'd also like an FG-42 but I'd have to sell someones else's kidneys for that!


As for the 22 conversions for Mac, I'm one of those working on them and I've been part of one of the other successful projects in one small little piece. Was pretty excited to see it work! I'm working on old VanVorhess stuff which I hope to add a couple to circulation and maybe come up with my own but that is waiting until I'm done with my belt fed project and another subgun project and some Reising stuff I'm working on in my free time. May also end up making DPM stuff for a local SOT.

OP, please accept my apology for derailing your thread. I will make another thread so we don't derail your thread any further. I  should have done that to start. I am sorry.

Personally, if I was to start over and had $50,000 to start with, I would buy a DIAS. There is no doubt about it, the HK roller delayed system in pistol calibers can not be beat. I am a clone guy. I have 25 host guns, most of whom are configurations that HK never made. My .40 S&W SD is very quiet but can still knock down steel that is set "heavy". And there is something about my 10mm K-PDW. It is a very small package you want to hang onto very tightly.

But in rifle caliber I think that the M16 has an edge in both ergonomics, and adjustable rate of fire. I think that the flat wire recoil spring, varying the buffer mass, and function can really give soft recoil and a tunable ROF in rifle caliber that the roller delayed just doesn't have. I  am amazed at someone hasn't set up a flat wire recoil assembly to slow down the ROF of the roller delayed.

So OP, do you have more interest in rifle or pistol caliber and how deep are your pockets? The M16 family can change calibers for $500 to $1,000 on the cheap end. Roller delayed you are  looking at a mostly complete firearm with a sear, which starts at double that. To go HK host, you are looking at $4,000 and up. For belt fed options, $5,000 for the M16 with a spare barrel. The roller delayed is around $15,000 with a spare barrel for a clone. You can't even buy the HK 23E parts set for that. You are looking at $20,000 plus just for the parts set. And if you are using a HK parts set, you are going to need a HK91 receiver. Good luck with your search.

Scott

As I mentioned before, I think my 9mm CMMG RDB surpasses my MP5 in terms of cyclic rate and smoothness but only have all the tweaking.
Also way better ergos than the MP5 and way more tune-able than the MP5.
LRBHO as well.
I think there is no innovation on the MP5 while there doesn't seem to be any slowing down on AR/M16 improvements.
That said, I am really looking forward to the new MEAN Arms bearing delay setup for the AR/M16.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2023/01/16/shot-2023-mean-arms-bearing-delayed-9mm-carbine/


There are several full auto vids on facebook.
I know many of you don't use FB so I downloaded this video and put on my site:
Full auto MEAN Arms bearing delay at Range Day Shot Show 2023
I've heard they are expecting it to be available 3rd quarter 2023...I know they have said it would be available before but it looks more serious this time.

I have been working on trying to get a flat spring setup for my MP5 for testing....but may not bother if that MEAN Arms bearing delay comes out since I already have a flat spring and hydraulic buffer in my M16.

I'm going to go against the grain here but a AR15 drop in auto sear covers at least as many bases as a HK sear.
Fightlite belt fed upper, CMMG .22 LR upper runs like a top, 9MM uppers, 7.62x39 and 5.45x39.
Plus you can drop in your buddies AR15 to give him/her the woodie of firing their own gun full auto.
Same price as HK sear.

When I shoot there is always this feeling in the back of my mind of wrecking / scratching / whatever my M16 , MP5 etc.
AR15 Drop in sears are simple.

+1, I'd take a RDIAS over an HK sear especially with an MGI modular lower.
Sure with HK sear you could a belt fed 308 but I prefer my belt fed LM7 22LR and belt fed 9mm over a belt fed 308.  Easier to suppress and cheaper to shoot.

Absolutely !
Nice collection BTW.
I pretty much have everything I want except a DIAS.
And an M60...
And a Swedish K...
And a .....

50k for an HK sear Sold one of mine this time last year for 33k and thought what a great profit, Especially since I bought it in 1990 for $375. but those $$ went towards my M60  (thats in jail) with a few gold eagles and poof M60. OP save your pennies and get what you want life is way to short...

One word UZI. Build like a tank. Mags are cheap. Lots of parts are still available but you’ll probably never need them. Love mine. Fun as hell to shoot Plus you can adjust the rounds per minute with buffers.

1) Establish what calibers you want to shoot (assuming you are NOT a full-collector... thats a whole different ball game, but you can also be 80% shooter 20% collector or just straight 100% shooter).  What you want to shoot also depends where you can reasonably shoot.  BLM land?  or maybe a dense urban area where the only full-auto allowed in an hour drive is a <50 yard bay.  Want to play in Subgun matches (if any)?
  DO YOU WANT TO HAVE 22lr? is another seperate question worth asking
2) budget for the ammo, rememeber every $10k you spend over what is "necessary" could have bought you 20-40k rounds of ammo.
3) how much do you want to work?  Some MGs require maintenance and or eat rare parts.  Some just run and run and run and run with little effort (9mm uzi), transferable belt feeds can be a whole lot of hassle.

MY opinions (worth what you paid for):

calibers = "all of them" INCLUDING 22lr= one RDIAS and done, you already (likely) own the hosts.  Though RDIAS are hard to find so a non-colt RR (Sendra) is also a back up option (you dont want to pay a premium to beat on a collector grade M16A2).  Be aware that (non M16A2) transferable lowers are thinner around the extension and hinge pin (the RDIAS you can beat up a lower or use all manner of cool space age modern lowers and not be worried).

The MAC/lage kits never appealed to me since they aren't a "real gun" (they have a real lip-stick on a pig look and well, if you are spending 5 figures you had better like the look of it!).  If you are 100.0% shooter least-cost to get going then I guess this would be the ticket, but you are relying on one company to make the otherwise basically useless SMG useful.

Can you live without rifle calibers?  It gets easier if you can...

subgun + 22lr conversion...  UZI make sure you get a registered reciever not a bolt).  Spending $20k on an uzi then $10k on 40,000 rounds of ammo = $30k, bought what youd spend on an RDIAS.  and the UZI is pretty bone simple.  .45 kits out there too.

If you "just want to shoot 9mm / subgun matches" you could also consider an S&W-76 or sterling (star wars blaster cool factor).  But theres the optics problem with these.

Opinions only, don't hate me if you have an uzi or ak.

Reising 45
Under 10k
45 acp makes me
Have fun finding mags.
Hope your mag works.
Have fun loading the same mag over and over.
Aftermarket mags....lol...nope

Mac
10-15k
Lots of upper and modern customization choices
Easy and cheap to replace parts, readily available
Lower pretty much reparable indefinitely

UZI
15-20k
Built like a tank
You want modern options, not today jr
Meh get a Mac so you can have options unless you love the look, it is a timeless look

Thompson
20k - 50k and up for specials
Lots of stuff to learn
Heavy
Looks OG gangster
Might as well get an m16 at this point

Ak47
30-50k or more for special ones
Not as many options, is what it is.
Just get an m16 instead.

M16
25k-50k depending on if you want a colt
Even more options then the Mac, belt fed option, easy 22lr which Mac struggle with if you can even find a conversion
Easy and cheap to replace parts, readily available
I love my registered receiver, drop on any upper, it runs, it always runs, no fuss.
Aluminum recover with holes that metal pins rotate in, aluminum hard to weld/repair, not as many smiths who can do that

Mp5 variants
45-60k, expensive, but boss
Options, but expensive, almost as much as a Mac per host, belt fed host but $$$
Parts available but $$$ and sometimes not available or you gotta wait
Most complicated to get into, a LOT to learn.
Everyone says sear but it's not as easy as drop in all the time, need full auto carrier, some receivers have blocks, some ledges are different.  Need a retimed hammer.
Be careful with sear, know if it's married to gun, there are some sketch people out there.  Make sure you know about modified sears and if you want to avoid.  Know who did the install of sear into pack.
RR rought takes factory lower and parts, easy to swap, easy to have spare on hand, most true to original design, modern roller sear vs friction sear.
Clones sometimes run sometimes pain in the ass.
Most likely to have to send off for professional work to be done.
Get ready to spend $$$.  If it's HK it's expensive.

RDIAS
Lol have fun finding one.  45k and up.
Aluminum vs steel
Do they run every time with every upper easily?

Mine does.  Works with zero tinkering.

I really can't argue with any of your points above and I own every at least one (or more) of every transferable variant you mentioned in your list above with the exception of the M16 Drop in Auto Sear (I actually personally prefer Lightning Links over the DIAS so have a couple of those instead)

I also find the Uzi personally underwhelming and while the AK is generally a one-trick pony and not a great one at that....  the AK47 has sort of grown on me over the years with some upgrades like a KNS piston and rate reducing fire control components to the point that  I have considered getting/building a second shorty "Krink" style variant in 7.62x39 or finding a transferable Galil or Valmet for something else AK-ish but a bit off the beaten path.

The best option for most folks on a budget is a MAC variant of some type.  If you can afford twice a MAC I would suggest an  M16 registered receiver over a MAC.  Once you have an M16 the next step is usually an HK sear.

I love my HK sears and at least one of them would be one of the last machineguns I would ever sell.  However as you mention the learning curve and cost commitment for the HK platform can be high. However the collector side of me finds the HK  world very interesting/appealing given the number of distinct German HK factory models available to collect as sear hosts.

Once you have the M16 and HK sear the collecting world is your oyster to pick and choose guns (like a Thompson, an M2 Carbine,  or an AC556) not because they are the best shooters in the world but because you just always wanted one since you were a kid. etc.

I think the MACs, M16, and HK sear are your most versatile options.

The HK sear is really good (the best?) at being various types of 9mm SMG (MP5, MP5k). The rest of the HK platforms don’t entice me very much personally, full auto or otherwise.

The M16 is very much a living platform, with new stuff coming out all the time. It’s generally great at most carbine-oriented things it does (maybe the best?). SMG applications are still evolving, but for the better. Blowback 9mm in the AR/M16 platform is not so great. CMMG RDB is a good platform, but needs ejector springs replaced frequently. Roller delayed and bearing delayed uppers are on or coming to the market. If you are more SMG oriented, the M16 platform is not so good at being small, though there are some captured spring uppers like the new CMMG that could be used with a folding stock. If you are more rifle/carbine oriented, this is probably the best choice IMO.

The MACs (particularly the M11 and M11/9) are extremely versatile in terms of form factor. They can go from machine pistol to SMG to carbine with readily available uppers. They probably are not the best at anything they do, but the breadth of roles they can cover is hard to beat, particularly at the price point. Also very much a living platform with numerous new products/uppers in the works.

If you don’t care about 22LR, a RLL will run any pistol or rifle cal in an AR15 and AR10 for around $15k

It’s more involved to initially get set up, but once you get it down it’s pretty easy to set up 2 or 3 lowers for Safe/Semi/Full.  Correctly timed with a KNS RLL Protector and properly clearanced receiver & hammer should make it pretty indestructible. I keep a few different paddle sizes in my grip compartment in case someone wants to run their upper on my lower.

OP abandoned thread 4 months ago.

He'll have to up his game for an HK mp5

OP went to get more money, or figure out how to obtain a post sample.
That's what I had to do.

22LR with a RLL is now possible.  
Thread showing what a friend of mine did: https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/RLL-with-Ciener-Kit/23-518179/

I saw him a few months ago and he said he made it even simpler

I don't think the new CMMG Dissent will work in full auto.
See link below.  Unless you make a custom trip or something.
However, even if you did, I would anticipate RoF over 1000 RPM which I personally find undesirable.

Look in to a lightening link. About 20-23K.
You can have many hosts. From full auto shotguns, KS47 ar/ak, multiple AR variants like a CMMG banshee in 9mm,45cal,10mm Or get a belt fed upper and put it on a AR lower. I think I am at 7 hosts for the link so far.

This is all solid advice right here.  Extra bonus cause that's the exact 3 MGs I own.

I sold the Mac.  Kept the MP5 and M16.  Might be the Mac I had wasn't too keen because it used sten mags and I had problems with it,  Wasn't interested in figuring it out when I had an MP5.

Sten mags kinda just suck. I modified about a dozen for my Max31. They run kinda when they want to.

For my MAC-10 45 with 9mm uppers (Double column upper/bolt) I have good luck with running Vz-26 mags in the 45 magwell with a Powder springs and Lage 9mm uppers. (No 9mm adapter)  Just cut a notch at the correct position to lock the mags at the catch and they work well.  They are longer than 9mm front to back and will fit snugly in a 45 mag well/grip.  If you have an assortment of Vz26 mags some will fit more snugly than others.  

I was picking up Vz26 mags for $8 each - still that price at Numrich - Many of the ones I got are un-issued too.

The Vz26 mags do have extra length so you need to be careful to load the mags with 9mm so the rounds don't slop forward - push each one to the back.

I really like a MAC-10 for my first full auto - been able to change to different calibers and uppers without much cost and not adulterating some of its cool retro 70s-80s collect-ability.  Parts are readily available should anything break down.

The Lage 5.56 is very nice but sort of like clown-shoes on a super model kind of date night.  Still a fun date

Trying to figure out what I want for my next Transferable or consider going into licensing to get post samples.  I like unique and odd guns but not things that don't run or not be able to repair.

BRP has some interesting subgun offerings still that seem to offer some flexibility but no real historical military/police lineage - sort of a full auto for full auto fun.

Honestly?  I wouldn't spend that kind of money on FA unless you're a multi-millionare.  At one point before the real estate crash in '08, I had three subguns and two M16s.  They are a lot of fun for a while and if you crave attention, you can hardly do better.  They would probably be an investment, but for practical reasons you'd do a lot better to stick to SA and spend your money more wisely.

Now that I'm a lot older and hopefully wiser I don't want attention and prefer to quietly practice and train with what I've got.  Bang.  Bang.  (pause) Bang.

Spray and pray is great, but I flatter myself can find a lot better things to do with $50k.

Skip all the finicky B.S.  and either buy a Colt M16 or a registered receiver HK94 converted to HK MP5.
They both always work and you don't have to fiddle with them.
Plenty of market support and parts are readily available.

RCA

My Mac puts the most rounds down range for sure.  I baby my others.

I shoot M16s and hosts with HK packs the most.

Different strokes for different folks. I completely disagree with you. I have owned tranny MGs since ‘01 and still enjoy them. I enjoy owning them and shooting them. It has nothing to do with craving attention, as I always shoot at private ranges with fellow MG addict friends.

My first MG shows up at my dealer tomorrow I went with a M11/9 because I wanted a toy with cheap parts and cheap mags and HK sears are 3x the price

You'll enjoy it. Time to buy all the Lage goodies now!

+1.  I also don't want the attention.  I prefer not to have anyone bother me.  I like to tinker.  When the wife goes out of town with the kids, I love to go to the range for like 8 hrs by myself and test all kinds of stuff.  Even better on a weekday with less people around.

A man must have hobbies.

For me personally, I bought a couple machine guns.  Sure I only get them out a few times a year but who cares.  I drive around every day and see driveways littered with fishing boats and campers.  These things get on a lake or in a campground maybe three times a year.  In ten years the boat will sell for maybe a tenth of it's purchase price and the camper will be scrap.  I don't begrudge these people their hobbies.

I have only so long on this earth, I don't mind "wasting" my money to go braappp, braappp on occasion.

It's like you are describing my habits.  I go to the range when chances are I can be by myself.  Oh the feeling when you pull up and no one else there

I love to shoot with friends and am fortunate to have a number of local/regional friends who are also MG owners/shooters.