A weird situation I simply haven't been in before: Figured I'd see if anyone has experience with anything similar.

I have a few silencers and other NFA items that I've owned for years but was located out of my home state.
I had them Form 3'd and shipped to an in-state dealer to be subsequently transferred along on to me (I have an FFL/SOT now, but didn't when this all began.)
While the firearms were in this dealer's inventory (but before he sent in the ATF Form 3's to transfer to me) the dealer was arrested for some felonies. He has now let his FFL and SOT expire. (Or perhaps it was revoked. But either way, FFLeZcheck says his license is no longer bueno.)

NFA Branch tells me no transfers are pending, but informs me that in these situations, the local ATF office's IOI will step in to help with disposing the ex-FFL's inventory to any proper owners. But the Branch also, circularly, says that if there's no transfer pending, the ATF can't get it to me.

ATF:  "It's a civil matter. We can't help."
ME:  "So if I get a judge to award the property to me in a CIVIL lawsuit, but dealer is in jail, how do I take possession of it without someone initiating the proper disposition forms?"
ATF:  "You can't."
ME:  "So how is it ONLY a civil matter then, and not also partially in your lane?"
ATF:  "We don't know. It's civil. Not our job. Don't bug us."

So I give the legal thing a try, the lawyers come out, I easily get a judgement in civil court proving it's my stuff. But I don't feel comfortable just going to the jailed dealer's office and taking my firearms without ATF's help logging out/NFA forms being approved. (There are NFA firearms just sitting out in the open, not locked up.)
This week, I'm going to report it all stolen (Grand Theft by Conversion) with the county sheriff. When the local police file the stolen firearms report with ATF, and I'll email the stolennfa@atf address so they have record of it at the Branch... whatever that does! I think sort of gets it things back into ATF's jurisdiction and maybe they'll stop refusing to help out then. Also, the theft report formalizes this issue in government-form-writing and gives me some more documentation/extra proof that it's my property in case his inventory (my stuff!) all gets seized and goes to forfeiture.

If the sheriff is truly helpful, I gotta admit that it would certainly be weird if they go bust his door down and the cops hand me my NFA items with no paperwork*. But that's apparently what "civil" seizure looks like when you file a writ of possession. ("If Judgment is personal property, and Defendant refuses return of it, the Sheriff can assist in your recovery of it. Provide the Sheriff with Writ, location, and a description of the property. The Sheriff will be ordered by the judge to recover the property, even if they have to break in or damage locks, doors, or windows. Upon seizure of the property, the Sheriff will send notification allowing you to take possession of it.")

Anyone have experience on what the road ahead looks like, or advice on how to get my property to me?



*And, before anyone says "The local police aren't going to just hand you NFA firearms." In this very case, they already did exactly that. Some months after the dealer was arrested, the Prosecutor and police just gave some firearms and silencers that were seized during the arrest to a third party who isn't an employee, wasn't a Responsible Party on the FFL, in any way authorized to have them, etc. No ATF paperwork was done, just just told the guy "come pick these up". ...and then this third party guy made numerous transfers of them while in his possession without filing any paperwork or updating the bound books because he was ignorant of any NFA law. /Facepalm/  I actually informed the Prosecutor that he'd put the third party in legal jeopardy, but he shrugged and said "ATF isn't going to care, and we just needed to get the stuff out of our property room." Which is -strangely- correct. ATF later told me "We know there's possession of NFA with no paperwork, but no one's going to want to file a case against a state government prosecutor or against the poor sap who's defense would be "The police literally handed me these."

What a shitshow!  Oof

How good is your Senator or US Representative?  If they could light a fire under ATF's ass it might help.

Huh?
Let me get this straight.....you possessed "a few silencers and other NFA items".....formed 4 to a dealer in your state of residence, who Form 3rd to Felonious FFL?
Or were those NFA firearms never transferred to you in your former state of residence?

NOT AN ATTORNY OR LEGAL EXPERT BY ANY MEANS
I would be very leery of going the stolen NFA/firearm route, I feel you would unnecessarily open Pandoras box. What is now a simple matter of gaining access to your property would now become a drawn out legal proceeding.
IMO you are in fact the legal owner of the items and all you are doing is re establishing possession of lawfully owned property.
Keep the process as simple as possible and keep the alphabet agency as distant as possible, you already have the appropriate documentation required.

Do you have access to another local FFL/SOT that you can bounce it off of? They may have a IOI they have a good relationship with.

Good thought. I guess if ATF becomes a stumbling block vs. a help, that might be worth a call.

No, they were Form 3'd to this now-arrested dealer in my state of residence. I owned them, but I had never taken possession of them anywhere.

They were always my property, paid for, I have receipts, etc. -- but the items were being held in other FFL's inventories out of state.
I needed them brought into my home state to then Form 4 them to myself, but I ended up just getting an FFL/SOT in the interim, so NOW I can Form 3 them to myself. Obviously, I wish I would have had an FFL back when this started and I could have avoided using this middleman, but... here we are.  :D

This "simple matter of gaining access to my property" has been dragged out for over a year and a half already! If it were simple, I'd have my stuff already.  :)

I am a local FFL/SOT, and talked to the IOI we geographically share... IOI's sympathetic, knows the situation, but his hands are tied because "It's a civil matter".
I'm not just establishing possession of my property. ATF "knows" it's my stuff, local police "know" its my stuff, but no one is willing to help GET it, or can't file the forms for the dealer. Especially now that he's gone out of business. The problem is no forms have been initiated, and arrested-FFL guy won't respond to registered mail, etc... I hadn't wanted to rain down any ATF problems on him (on top of his multiple misdemeanors and felonies he's awaiting trial for). But at this point, if ATF can make his decisions clearer with threat of extra legal problems, so be it. I've got maybe $35,000 worth of NFA stuff just trapped in his inventory and would be truly disappointed if it all gets seized and sent to the shredder. Just frustrated.

It is a civil matter and you don't want to report them stolen because they haven't been.  I don't think ATF would even take the report from you b/c they're not registered to you.

Obviously you can't just take possession b/c they're not registered to you.  Proper transfer is F4 to you from the now-defunct FFL because he's no longer an SOT.  You should have done that 18 months ago instead of wasting your time/$ on a civil suit.

Is the former FFL cooling his heels in a cell or is he out?

So.........who is this mysterious third party?
Is Third Party still in possession?
If so, why are you wasting time with Felonious FFL?
IS ATF aware that Third Party is in possession of NFA firearms?





Is Third Party an employee or business associate of Felonious FFL?




Forget trying to convince ATF to file a criminal case, on the surface I see no criminal act whatsoever. I do see more than a bit of ignorance on the part of local PD and prosecutor. But bottom line is Third Party is in illegal possession of NFA firearms. I think you need to go a bit higher up the ladder at ATF and quit talking to local ATF.

Since they are no longer possessed by an SOT holder you may have to pay $200 and transfer each item on a Form 4.

Or if you can convince them they are being held by a government agency you may get them to transfer tax free on a Form 5!

But technically they are being possessed in violation of the NFA and can't be transferred to anyone!

Obviously in hindsight, all this should have been done this a long time ago, yes, agreed.

The former FFL has been awaiting trial since last October. Amazing - "right to a speedy trial" in the time of COVID means his trial has been moved back since 2019, and still hasn't happened yet. He spent a year or so in jail awaiting trial, and now was released to a halfway house, GPS on leg, etc. until he can go to trial. He refused any contact, didn't return ATF forms to sign that were sent to him by courier, registered mail, etc. over the last year or so. I don't know how I could have forced him to sign the form 4s you say I should have done.

Answering in reverse:
Going up higher: Local ATF is actually sympathetic. It's the ATF area supervisor that told them to stand down and not do anything.

Third part guy is not, nor was ever, an employee of the FFL.

ATF is aware the paperless transfers happened. See my post above, they don't think it's fruitful to bring a case against the county Prosecutor for 'giving' firearms to someone. They don't think it's good public relations to go arrest a clueless guy that was literally given the firearms to hold for safekeeping BY THE POLICE. I mean, let's face it: ATF has problems looking like overzealous Waco types. It's not in their best interest to press charges that will be bounced out of court as being arguably entrapment at worst, a clumsy mess at best. Not a good look for them, and an unwinnable case.

Third party is the FFL's estranged Dad. At one point, Dad claimed to have Power of Attorney (probably why they let him have the guns at the time). But once he got the guns, he conspired with his son to try to sell them to make bail, and he -oops- accidentally transferred them without doing paperwork to a fourth-party friend to take around to local gunshops to try to sell them. The first shop he brought them to told him to get the hell out of here right now or we're forced to call ATF, because you're trying to hock NFA firearms that aren't registered to you... Dad got scared, he wanted no further part of this once he realized he was playing with fire, and claimed he gave up any POA. He's just a dude, probably still in possession I assume. He has no legal way to get rid of the NFA stuff, and probably didn't throw it out. Or maybe he did just sell some of it without paperwork. I can't imagine how dad - totally ignorant of gun laws - could get into the locked FFL address and safe, find the bound books, properly complete a 4473, NICS check, or F4!

Either way, when I sued in small claims court for a handful of the weapons (the ones released by the Prosecutor to Dad, not all of them), I named both dad and son as parties. During the trial, they perjured themselves to the judge, telling her they sold them the day before the trial. Which was a Sunday, and the trial was at 9am, so I'm not sure how a non-RP that knows nothing about guns somehow got a NFA transfer form filed AND approved in the ten minutes before our trial date.  :) Judge didn't know anything about NFA, blew by that point when I tried to tell her what happened. She's like "they say they're sold, they're gone, moving along..." During pre-trial mediation a half hour prior, they both admitted they had them to the mediator, but apparently our justice system has declared things told to a mediator as non-admissible in trial. Sheesh. Either way, too bad, sloppy judge-work there. But that case was only two or three silencers and some Title 1 rifles in that batch, maybe $6k worth of nice stuff that I assume I'll have a very hard time getting back. There's still 25 or so more valuable NFA items still (hopefully) at his FFL address that weren't in that batch.

OP....where in Texas?

I'm getting pretty close to doxxing myself, so I've been a little vague.
I don't want to accidentally paint anyone with a wide brush, though. I bounce back and forth to TX part-time: this FFL is another state where I have a house.

Dude likely has a defense attorney.  You can ask his defense attorney if he will take the papers to his client to sign the next time they have a FTF meeting, pointing out that not signing will potentially get his client in more hot water.

Public Defender. After arrest, he lost his house, job, etc. and is pretty much broke. A year in jail and now living in a halfway house... not big earning potential. :D

Public Defender's office has never replied to anything. It's absolutely not their job to work some civil matter... they're State-provided defense that's only there to work the felony & misdemeanor charges the state has brought against him (in this case, his assault, strangulation, domestic abuse, drug charges, those sorts of things.) I wrote the judge, the prosecutor, the public defender, multiple times, but judge can't respond legally outside of in-trial/all parties, defender doesn't care, prosecutor doesn't care. I was hoping the defender would view this building problem (potential for the client to be charged with extra gun theft, larceny, action for conversion, etc.) as detrimental to their other charges... but it doesn't seem they care.

Yeah, ATF will rush a going-out-of-business transfer. But my problem is there's no transfer pending, so nothing to rush. The crux here is "how to get a transfer initiated when the dealer won't do so?" and/or "How can the ATF or anyone else help me get my property?"

Area supervisor is local. Sounds like you need to talk to someone in WV or DC.
There's always the Action News Live at 5 Investigative Team........embarrass the fuck out of ATF/local PD/local DA and everyone else.

"Local man has illegal possession of silencers, sawed off shotguns and assault weapons.....and local PD/local DA gave them to him" Film at 10.

Time for scorched earth my friend.

Could you possibly prepare the needed forms in advance and go see this guy in jail on visiting day?  Hopefully he will sign the forms, or has his license already been revoked?

License or not makes no difference, it's still a F4 $200 transfer from a non-licensee.

I did Form 3's and had a courier drop them off to him when he was in jail.
I sent certified mail copies twice, with a postage-paid return envelope.
I wrote the judge in his felony case asking the court to allow / compel him to sign them, and enclosed F3s for the court to get to him.
I sent copies to his Public Defender asking them to get them to him.

There was no excuse to not sign and send them back to me (or directly to the NFA Branch for processing, if he preferred).

The guy obviously ain't signing, and it's not because he hasn't had the opportunity or the ability or the forms themselves.

As update, I started talking to the ATF's criminal side, as the IOI side didn't provide any help or action at all. Perhaps informing ATF that there's been multiple paperless transfers and that the firearms are now affected by "theft by conversion" will have some chance of getting things moving. I really didn't want to invoke the ATF on anyone, but... obviously the guy doesn't care who he hurts, and if he winds up incarcerated for the felony charges (trial is next month, assumedly he'd go away for a couple years), it's going to add another layer of weirdness to this.