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Posted: 1/9/2020 12:58:26 AM EST
Researching online all you ever see is L3 unfilmed and with good reason but what is the performance like on the Harris P WP and HP WP tubes?

Does anyone have experience/input they can provide?
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 1:33:11 AM EST
Probably the best bang for the buck out there right now are Harris thin filmed WP tubes.
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 7:57:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 8:38:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 9:54:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By texassooner:
Probably the best bang for the buck out there right now are Harris thin filmed WP tubes.
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Where is a good place to buy said tubes at? I've seen eBay's offerings bit there's gotta be a better source than that.
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 10:21:24 AM EST
I have one in a pvs-7 from JRH. No complaints at all
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 11:44:56 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
Harris is now the owner of L3 and was forced to sell off their NV holding to Elbit USA.

So Elbit is what I will refer to them as.

They aren't bad tubes by any means, but there is no difference between the green and white offering from Elbit other than a phosphor screen change. Years ago I would have said they were higher performance than the L3 filmed tubes, but that has evened out at this point.

Meaning they are no more capable than the thin filmed green tubes, so don't pay more for a different color screen without a capability upgrade IMO.

Their data sheet numbers will reflect this.
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How much better specs would you say your thin filmed WP PVS14 have over the standard thin filmed green you are listing for a few hundred less?
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 11:54:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 12:55:36 PM EST
And of course just when people finally got used to using the name Harris it changes to Elbit.

I was curious if L3 did anything to explain the merger changing Harris' night vision ownership, etc. I went to L3Harris's website, clicked on "capabilities", then "warfighter effectiveness", then "view Harris capabilities", and finally "night vision". It goes direct to Elbit's night vision page where you're greeted with "We're not going anywhere, we just got better." Man, new people trying to look up Harris vs L3 are going to be mind fucked, lol.

I can imagine how it went down:

L3 Web dude:
"What should I do with the Harris night vision section? Write up an explanation to explain?"

L3 Boss man:
"Fuck no, you're not wasting your time on that bullshit. Redirect to Elbit."
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 1:02:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:

They do not have better specs. it is merely a color pallet change.
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Good to know. Seems most people prefer the white over the green. Do you guys sell more of the l3 green filmed or the thin and unfilmed white phosphorus(grouped together)
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 1:04:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 1:16:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 2:22:44 PM EST
justa thought but i guess these tubes are measured by some automated camera - could it be that this process "likes" the b/w image better than green but the human eye is supposed to be most sensitive to green so the differences might not be so noticeabls to a person using it ?
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 8:29:16 PM EST
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Originally Posted By johnelot:
justa thought but i guess these tubes are measured by some automated camera - could it be that this process "likes" the b/w image better than green but the human eye is supposed to be most sensitive to green so the differences might not be so noticeabls to a person using it ?
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Possible but it's something that should have been corrected for during the design and calibration of the right test equipment. With digital cameras, WP tubes do tend to show up better. The eye definitely sees green better and the better spectral match does get noticed. Helps compensate for some differences.
Link Posted: 1/9/2020 8:44:08 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Lowdown3:
Grabbing randomly 5 data sheets for green phosphor tubes and 5 data sheets for white phosphor units from the stack next to my desk. All tubes are the High Performance (HP+) grade. All PVS14s, all Harris/Elbit tubes-

Green Phosphor-

JH in WA got a unit with 30.6 SN Ebi of 1.28
AL in TX got a unit with 29.3 SN Ebi of 0.38
RB in MD got a unit with 29.2 SN Ebi of 1.17
SK in NJ got a unit with 29 SN Ebi of 0.94
SC in KY got a unit with 28.8 SN Ebi of 0.33

White Phosphor- also High Performance grade, also PVS14s

HF in AZ got a unit with 26.8 SN 72LP and ebi of 0.76
RR in NC got a unit with 32.2 SN Ebi of 1.67
MM in NC got a unit with 33.8 SN Ebi of 0.74
MG in CO got a unit with 34.3 SN Ebi of 1
GL in WA got a unit with 32.5 SN Ebi of 0.5

5 random data sheets of the same tube grade. The white Phosphor units seem to average slightly higher than the green phosphor.
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Those are some impressive numbers. I'm extremely happy/impressed with my GP ITT/Harris HP+ 14
Link Posted: 1/12/2020 11:02:23 PM EST
I also consistently see moderately higher specs on Harris thin film WP tubes compared to their greens of the same grade.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 10:05:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 11:03:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2020 11:10:15 AM EST by will-1]
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Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
I also consistently see moderately higher specs on Harris thin film WP tubes compared to their greens of the same grade.
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Which grades are you comparing, HP / HP+ or P+ / P ? And you talking about all of the specs not just the FOM #'s res/snr? In particular the photocathode response.

I thought WHP was HP+ but after checking again I noticed the WHP's response minimum is 1800 versus the HP+ 2200 minimum. SNR minimum is the same. So it looks like the WHP classification is basically P+ grade and WP classification is P grade.

NVD grades listed at bottom of this page

ETA: @westernhaikus1
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 11:20:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 11:54:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lowdown3:

There is the WP and the High Performance grade WP. The examples I listed are all HP+ grade both green and white.
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I'm just trying to make sure everybody is on the same page including people going to NVD's site. Under the NVD classifications they break out white phosphor from green phosphor and there isn't a HP+, just WHP, and it has a lower response minimum (1800) versus the HP+ (2200) and allows for more spot blems.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:00:39 PM EST
All this confusion on comparing is why I have not bought a PVS-14 yet.

I simply can not understand the classifications.

It seems like you order something and you don't know what you are going to get spec wise.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:10:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:19:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
FWIW, if you have specs in mind, we will do hand selects, depending on what you’re asking for it may or may not add to the lead time, but it’s an option.

~Augee
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
Originally Posted By Mach:
All this confusion on comparing is why I have not bought a PVS-14 yet.

I simply can not understand the classifications.

It seems like you order something and you don't know what you are going to get spec wise.
FWIW, if you have specs in mind, we will do hand selects, depending on what you’re asking for it may or may not add to the lead time, but it’s an option.

~Augee
Thanks I did not know that.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:39:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mach:
All this confusion on comparing is why I have not bought a PVS-14 yet.

I simply can not understand the classifications.

It seems like you order something and you don't know what you are going to get spec wise.
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It can be real confusing.

Most dealers don't stock tubes so even they don't know what specs you'll get. This whole talk of specs equally offends all dealers it seems, lol.

FWIW, the "Mil-Spec" minimums are good enough for most people and that's what you'll get (or higher, usually higher but not guaranteed) from reputable dealers (JRH, TNVC, UNV, etc.).
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:41:16 PM EST
FWIW — The WP PVS-14 I purchased from Lowdown3 (JRH Enterprises) on the holiday sale he ran recently, was listed as a HP+ on the paperwork that came with it from NVD. My response on the unit is 2386 with no discernable spots. Very high S/N with low Halo and very low EBI, specs that are more like what I would expect from an un-filmed WP tube. All of the specs far exceed the WP minimums listed on NVD’s website as well as exceeding by a fairly large margin, their HP+ GP minimums. Quite possible that NVD needs to update their info to coincide with actual tube minimums for thin-filmed WP tubes.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:45:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By grtwht:
FWIW — The WP PVS-14 I purchased from Lowdown3 (JRH Enterprises) on the holiday sale he ran recently, was listed as a HP+ on the paperwork that came with it from NVD. My response on the unit is 2386 with no discernable spots. Very high S/N with low Halo and very low EBI, specs that are more like what I would expect from an un-filmed WP tube. All of the specs far exceed the WP minimums listed on NVD’s website as well as exceeding by a fairly large margin, their HP+ GP minimums. Quite possible that NVD needs to update their info to coincide with actual tube minimums for thin-filmed WP tubes.
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Thanks for the info. Looks like they need to update
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:48:45 PM EST
From the random specs Robert has posted lately, I agree.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 7:55:07 PM EST
Like Augee mentioned, most dealers are willing and ready to take your phone calls if there’s a certain spec you’re looking for. Some have big bins of tube categories and you’ll want to have them hand-select to get in the range you want, some refine things and ramp the price based on tighter minimum spec ranges. Most are also willing to go through what they have on hand versus what you’ll have to wait for.

I figure we’re all in the same boat though, we want to pay the least possible and get the best possible tube. If you really know your stuff and are sensitive to a particular spec that’s fine, but I figure most of us are better suited by letting the pros sort things out themselves and trusting the good dealers here to take care of us with the tubes they accept from their suppliers and offer for sale. I don’t see many posts from guys that have bought from a trusted dealer, been unhappy with the tube they got, contacted the dealer and been left without a resolution. Seems like most of the time people get grumpy they haven’t even chatted with who they spent thousands of dollars with first.

As a personal example, I bought a PVS-14 and asked the dealer to prioritize having no blems/sub-size-blems because I was filming and photographing through it most of the time. It’s mostly used at classes where there’s a decent amount of ambient and IR light being used, so the other specs weren’t as important. They took care of me and I was very happy with the tube at the price. Chasing specs hasn’t been productive for me and dick-measuring at the range gets old when you realize you can’t tell the difference between most specs when side by siding tubes. Blems and good dealer support are the most important “specs” to me. Your usage/needs may certainly vary.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 8:08:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2020 8:16:22 PM EST by grtwht]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jwramp:
Like Augee mentioned, most dealers are willing and ready to take your phone calls if there’s a certain spec you’re looking for. Some have big bins of tube categories and you’ll want to have them hand-select to get in the range you want, some refine things and ramp the price based on tighter minimum spec ranges. Most are also willing to go through what they have on hand versus what you’ll have to wait for.

I figure we’re all in the same boat though, we want to pay the least possible and get the best possible tube. If you really know your stuff and are sensitive to a particular spec that’s fine, but I figure most of us are better suited by letting the pros sort things out themselves and trusting the good dealers here to take care of us with the tubes they accept from their suppliers and offer for sale. I don’t see many posts from guys that have bought from a trusted dealer, been unhappy with the tube they got, contacted the dealer and been left without a resolution. Seems like most of the time people get grumpy they haven’t even chatted with who they spent thousands of dollars with first.

As a personal example, I bought a PVS-14 and asked the dealer to prioritize having no blems/sub-size-blems because I was filming and photographing through it most of the time. It’s mostly used at classes where there’s a decent amount of ambient and IR light being used, so the other specs weren’t as important. They took care of me and I was very happy with the tube at the price. Chasing specs hasn’t been productive for me and dick-measuring at the range gets old when you realize you can’t tell the difference between most specs when side by siding tubes. Blems and good dealer support are the most important “specs” to me. Your usage/needs may certainly vary.
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Exactly right on finding a good dealer like JRH or TNVC, they got to where their are at by offering great products and customer service after the sale.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 8:18:48 PM EST
The source of the confusion (I think) is that NVD uses different specifications than what you see on the spec sheets as the type of tube. My comment earlier was in regards mainly to the XLS grade of tubes which I see most often (and probably correspond to the ‘P’ grade on NVD’s site based on the min photocathode response metric.) I expect the same to be true across all lines however.

I have seen a sheet for a white XLS grade tube with 2700 (not a typo) FOM, however, so clearly anything is possible.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 8:51:59 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
The source of the confusion (I think) is that NVD uses different specifications than what you see on the spec sheets as the type of tube. My comment earlier was in regards mainly to the XLS grade of tubes which I see most often (and probably correspond to the ‘P’ grade on NVD’s site based on the min photocathode response metric.) I expect the same to be true across all lines however.

I have seen a sheet for a white XLS grade tube with 2700 (not a typo) FOM, however, so clearly anything is possible.
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No confusion, just confirming which classifications you were seeing the WP being higher on and if the WHP is the same as HP+ is all. You answered that (thanks) and Grtwht has confirmed he got an HP+ WP tube.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 9:19:43 PM EST
As an aside, the recent WP HP+ PVS-14 purchase I mentioned above, came with an Elbit Systems of America tube data sheet. Apparently it’s the new Harris/L3? I’ve got to admit it’s very nice tube whatever they call themselves today.
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 9:28:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/13/2020 11:58:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2020 12:00:54 AM EST by TNVC_Augee]
Link Posted: 1/14/2020 1:16:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2020 1:32:18 AM EST by grtwht]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
Wheeeeell...

Elbit Systems bought what used to be Harris' night vision division, former ITT, former Excelis, creators of PINNACLE technology, the F5050 AN/PVS-23, AN/PSQ-20A SENVG, and distributor/licensee of the F5032 (Theon Nyx), etc..

The newly merged company is now styled as L3Harris Technologies, and the new company opted to retain L3's electro-optics division, which created the L3 Filmless image intensifier technology, the BNVD-family (PVS-31A, 1531), AN/AVS-10 PNVG, GPNVG, BNVD-FUSED, etc.

So, Harris is no longer Harris, it's Elbit. But L3 is now L3Harris, so Harris is now L3.

Makes sense, right?



~Augee
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
Originally Posted By grtwht:
As an aside, the recent WP HP+ PVS-14 purchase I mentioned above, came with an Elbit Systems of America tube data sheet. Apparently it’s the new Harris/L3? I’ve got to admit it’s very nice tube whatever they call themselves today.
Wheeeeell...

Elbit Systems bought what used to be Harris' night vision division, former ITT, former Excelis, creators of PINNACLE technology, the F5050 AN/PVS-23, AN/PSQ-20A SENVG, and distributor/licensee of the F5032 (Theon Nyx), etc..

The newly merged company is now styled as L3Harris Technologies, and the new company opted to retain L3's electro-optics division, which created the L3 Filmless image intensifier technology, the BNVD-family (PVS-31A, 1531), AN/AVS-10 PNVG, GPNVG, BNVD-FUSED, etc.

So, Harris is no longer Harris, it's Elbit. But L3 is now L3Harris, so Harris is now L3.

Makes sense, right?



~Augee
Thank you for the detailed explanation.... makes perfect sense..... hahaha.
So where does Northrop Grumman Electro Optical Systems fit into all this with the tubes they used to make? I have a great Gen 3 Northrop tube from 2007 that rivals a lot of tubes out there today. Bought it through OpticsHQ, Michael and Kobe where super guys to deal with and very knowledgeable. They sold me some great kit that I use to this day.
Link Posted: 1/14/2020 1:34:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2020 1:41:57 AM EST by TNVC_Augee]
Link Posted: 1/14/2020 1:50:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:

Northrop Grumman merged with/bought Litton Industries, which had an Electro-Optical Systems division. Northrop Grumman later sold EOS to L3 Technologies not long after your tube was made, which was the night vision division retained by L3Harris during their recent merger.

It's all the same damn companies, they just keep changing who the big company that owns them is and the sign they have to put on their building.

It was interesting and kinda fun as an outsider watching e-mails from a lot of my contacts switching from @L3T.com to @L3Harris.com pretty much overnight with no interruption.

Harris felt like it took longer, probably because it took a while for the sale to be approved, and since they were "leaving" the company (Roanoke, Virginia did not in fact go anywhere ) though it still wasn't like it was a jarring change, to me at least.

One way or another, I bet a lot of bulk, pre-ordered business cards had to end up in the trash, though.



~Augee
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge.... greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 1/14/2020 1:30:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/14/2020 5:49:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

Some of the best guys on the planet. RIP Mike.
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So sorry to hear that he’s no longer with us... a great guy to be sure, super smart and always a pleasure to deal with. Same goes for Kobe. I know that they always spoke highly of you. I lost track of them and always wondered what happened. Thanks for the information.
Link Posted: 1/17/2020 3:29:32 AM EST
Kind of off topic as mine is an echo tube but can you guys tell me if my specs are good?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2uvg2g92z0tfwa/20200117_012744.jpg?dl=0
Link Posted: 1/17/2020 7:32:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2020 1:29:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blackcoyote:
Kind of off topic as mine is an echo tube but can you guys tell me if my specs are good?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2uvg2g92z0tfwa/20200117_012744.jpg?dl=0
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I agree with Robert, those specs look good for an Echo. It should be a good one.

It'd be nice if they'd list the photocathode response/sensitivity. It's a glaring omission.
Link Posted: 1/17/2020 1:53:50 PM EST
There was another page, it might be on that one, I will check when I get home.
Link Posted: 1/17/2020 2:17:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blackcoyote:
There was another page, it might be on that one, I will check when I get home.
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I'm pretty sure it won't be on that one either. I don't think Photonis gives out that info or at least not on any Echo sheets I've seen.
Link Posted: 1/18/2020 3:06:32 AM EST
@will-1 yeah you are right they omitted that info

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qj23e9hzv35pwan/AACffrEq33E8C5-XcaBfmQfXa?dl=0

I don't know what any of It means anyway lol
Link Posted: 1/18/2020 9:31:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blackcoyote:
@will-1 yeah you are right they omitted that info

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qj23e9hzv35pwan/AACffrEq33E8C5-XcaBfmQfXa?dl=0

I don't know what any of It means anyway lol
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Don’t worry about it. The Echos are pretty good. I had one with similar specs to yours and it was a nice tube.

The NV geek in me would just like to know what the actual photocathode specs are on these Echos.
Link Posted: 1/18/2020 8:33:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:

Don’t worry about it. The Echos are pretty good. I had one with similar specs to yours and it was a nice tube.

The NV geek in me would just like to know what the actual photocathode specs are on these Echos.
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So I guess the only drawback is really low light performance?
I saw tnvc had them listed as gen2 units and when I bought mine from ready made resources I was under the impression these were good gen 3 units.
Link Posted: 1/18/2020 8:38:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:

Don’t worry about it. The Echos are pretty good. I had one with similar specs to yours and it was a nice tube.

The NV geek in me would just like to know what the actual photocathode specs are on these Echos.
View Quote
So I guess the only drawback is really low light performance?
I saw tnvc had them listed as gen2 units and when I bought mine from ready made resources I was under the impression these were good gen 3 units.
Link Posted: 1/18/2020 8:41:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Blackcoyote:

So I guess the only drawback is really low light performance?
I saw tnvc had them listed as gen2 units and when I bought mine from ready made resources I was under the impression these were good gen 3 units.
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It’ll be dimmer than most gen 3 tubes but the tube works really good.
Link Posted: 2/1/2020 10:54:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:

So, Harris is no longer Harris, it's Elbit. But L3 is now L3Harris, so Harris is now L3.

~Augee
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They keep telling us it was a "Merger of Equals"...

That's what they keep telling us anyway/
Link Posted: 2/1/2020 11:09:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:

Northrop Grumman merged with/bought Litton Industries, which had an Electro-Optical Systems division. Northrop Grumman later sold EOS to L3 Technologies not long after your tube was made, which was the night vision division retained by L3Harris during their recent merger.

It's all the same damn companies, they just keep changing who the big company that owns them is and the sign they have to put on their building.

~Augee
View Quote
Northrop bought Litton. They mostly wanted the shipbuilding and sold off the Litton Electro-Optics Systems division to L3 Communications for a stupid cheap price.

L3 communications later changed their name to L3 Technologies because "communications" was a stupid name for a company who's biggest division was Aviation and Simulators.

Harris and L3 merged as of 1 July 2019. The name is now L3Harris. The tube factory in Tempe is the same factory it's been since 1972 or something like that. The old ITT tube house was sold to Elbit USA.

So, the buildings are the same, the people are the same, the phone numbers are the same, and everyone gets a new e-mail address.
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Harris WP tubes (Page 1 of 2)
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