GunBroker auction - likelihood of an unfired NIB U.S. Property M16?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - GunBroker auction - likelihood of an unfired NIB U.S. Property M16?

Posted: 11/11/2018 1:56:20 PM EDT

Found this on GunBroker (not mine, obviously):

US Property Marked Colt M16A1 UNFIRED NIB RARE

How likely is an unfired NIB U.S. Property M16?

Posted: 11/11/2018 2:32:02 PM EDT

[#1]

It’s certainly possible. I just found a NIB 1974 SP1. Not sure if I’ll keep it or look for a shooter. I’ve never been an “unfired” guy. I want to shoot it at least a little but it seems a shame for guns to go so long unfired and then get shot.

Posted: 11/11/2018 8:49:41 PM EDT

[#2]

You see the sellers other auctions? Has a genuine Russian SVD and a Walther WA2000

Posted: 11/11/2018 9:15:03 PM EDT

[#3]

There been a number of unfired, New in wrapped Garands found, so I suppose it's possible.

If it's government marked, how is it for sale on GB?

Posted: 11/12/2018 1:12:11 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
If it's government marked, how is it for sale on GB?

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There is a batch of transferrable M16A1s in the 5 million S/N range (5,3xx,xxx and 5,4xx,xxx typically) that are government marked. Different stories are told about how they are transferrable, often being cited as excess or surplus contract guns used for Alaska Pipeline security. Others have said Colt just used receivers they had in stock and sold out inventory without regard to markings when they went through one of many difficult financial times. I have also been told that at least one of them was purchased out of a Police Department in Colorado. I haven't seen anything authoritative on the guns, but wold love to hear from someone who worked at Colt and could tell the story. Some folks suggest they are re-welds, but Norell guns are a mix of receivers (lots of Hydramatics) and don't fall into this consistent S/N range. Also, some folks have x-rayed these series of guns and not found evidence of remanufacture. I have never heard of one NIB before, but that would seem to suggest that Colt just sold off a batch of guns that were property marked in the transferrable channel.

Posted: 11/12/2018 11:06:41 AM EDT

[#5]

I'm sure there are some, but I wouldn't doubt that a lot are fired, cleaned dup and claimed to be unfired NIB when they certainly are not.

Posted: 11/12/2018 12:43:37 PM EDT

[#6]

There are lots of NIB collector grade guns that have never been fired, or put up for sale.

I think Tony or someone else did an estimate that most of the guns for sale over the years are the same ones, and the vast majority are not seen or sold.

Posted: 11/13/2018 4:52:55 PM EDT

[#7]

IIRC, @tony_k once speculated about 7 years ago there were around a dozen NIB/unfired US Government Property M16 rifles in the registry; but I do not know if that was specific to M16A1 rifles or more rare variants. Granted, this was before all these rare collector grade/marked Colts hit the market. I can't find the thread now, but I think the discussion was around damcv62 talking about ripping two mags through an unfired M16 (XM177?) before selling it to a buyer.

ETA: There are a number of guns that have not been seen. There were veiled references to all the NIB Colts (such as the Tool Room serial M4) a couple years before they surfaced in the wild. With a couple thousand transferable models floating around, it's hard telling what is really out there. Look at some of the passing references from members like BigBore; he mentioned one of his customers has six - 6! - M16s for sale he bought in the early 1980s and he did not realize how much they were worth but is holding onto them as it's a "family" of rifles.

Posted: 11/13/2018 6:31:44 PM EDT

[#8]

There are not many out there. The majority belong to Reed Knight, who cleaned out Colt's vaults under a business deal, and most probably will never appear on the market.

It's been awhile since I studied this, but the dozen estimate seems correct. US-marked M16s came into transferable status in three ways:

--The majority were Alaska Pipeline guns, sold/given to the pipeline company by the U.S. gov. during construction. Since it is not an official government agency, these were entered into the registry and later sold when the company upgraded its armament. If the one for sale is not truly unfired but cosmetically redone, it could be one of these.

--Less common are contract overruns which never left Colt, and remained in inventory as either tool room guns or simple overruns that were later sold. These were Form 2'd into the NFA Registry. These would be the only ones which could be unfired, and thus my "dozen" estimate. If it is truly unfired, the one for sale could be this.

--A few were brought back unofficially by Viet vets and then registered in the '68 Amnesty, or "demilled" (either truly or theoretically) and Form 1'd by the owners. These are, IMHO, somewhat gray-area guns which (except for the actual demils) are theoretically still government property. None of these were unfired.

Hope that helps.

Posted: 11/13/2018 6:39:49 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
ETA: There are a number of guns that have not been seen. There were veiled references to all the NIB Colts (such as the Tool Room serial M4) a couple years before they surfaced in the wild. With a couple thousand transferable models floating around, it's hard telling what is really out there. Look at some of the passing references from members like BigBore; he mentioned one of his customers has six - 6! - M16s for sale he bought in the early 1980s and he did not realize how much they were worth but is holding onto them as it's a "family" of rifles.

View Quote

Most NFA MGs have not been seen, at least not in a long time. There is a Texas billionaire who has over 200 M16, according to the guy who sold them, another dealer told me he still has 100+ FNC sears, another told me he has 90 DIAS, and another has over 100 Tommy Guns. All are longtime collectors/exdealers/etc who bought before 86. Reed Knight himself has done interviews were he said her bought MAC10s by the pallet during the bankruptcy. Group Industries Uzis, SWD M11/9, thousands of thesehad disappeared for a decade before reappearing.

Posted: 11/14/2018 4:10:23 AM EDT

[#10]

Here is another 5,4xx,xxx S/N range U.S. property marked gun. Not unfired, but in nice condition other than where someone installing the bolt release damaged the receiver.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11646-wtswtt-26500-reduced-colt-m16a1-property-of-us-govt-marked/

Posted: 11/14/2018 4:16:40 AM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
The majority belong to Reed Knight, who cleaned out Colt's vaults under a business deal, and most probably will never appear on the market.

View Quote

I have heard the stories of Reed Knight buying pallets of M-16s from Colt, but curious why these would never appear on the market. He is a very capable businessman, and for sure has a massive gain in this investment, but it is only an investment if he sells at some point. I get that he appears to have enough to move the market so he wouldn't want to put them all out there at the same time, but at some point he or his heirs are going to want to turn those into money and realize his gains, right?

Posted: 11/14/2018 9:18:18 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

I have heard the stories of Reed Knight buying pallets of M-16s from Colt, but curious why these would never appear on the market. He is a very capable businessman, and for sure has a massive gain in this investment, but it is only an investment if he sells at some point. I get that he appears to have enough to move the market so he wouldn't want to put them all out there at the same time, but at some point he or his heirs are going to want to turn those into money and realize his gains, right?

View Quote

You are correct, Reed is a very capable businessman. But he started that business (Knight's Armament Company) in large part to finance building his firearms collection. The business does very well, and pays the bills; his collection, though, is his heart and soul.

He has been collecting NFA for a long, long, long time and to my knowledge, the only time he has ever parted with a machine gun is in trade for an MG that he wanted more than the ones he had. The depth and breadth of his collection -- displayed at the Institute for Military Technology he founded in Titusville -- is simply unbelievable; it is certainly the best in the world, private, public or government.

If you ever get a chance to go see it, do so. Here's the web site: https://www.instmiltech.com

Posted: 11/15/2018 12:00:35 AM EDT

[#13]

I just picked up my M16A1 and I'm fairly certain its never been fired. It was not advertised as unfired but after looking it over very closely there is not a single indicating mark that it has ever been fired. Debating if I should just leave it that way..

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:52:40 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
I just picked up my M16A1 and I'm fairly certain its never been fired. It was not advertised as unfired but after looking it over very closely there is not a single indicating mark that it has ever been fired. Debating if I should just leave it that way..

View Quote

Well, it depends.

First off, you own it now. You can do whatever you want with it.

Next, why did you buy it? To shoot it, or as an investment? If shooting it lowers its longtime value, does that worry you?

If you do decide to shoot it -- and that's what I did, but it was way back in 1994 when I only paid $2k for my Colt M16A1 -- the first thing I did was to strip it down to the bare receiver, carefully pack away all the original parts, and rebuild it with Colt components that worked perfectly but on which I was not worried about wear.

Today, 24 years later, the total wear after 50k+ rounds is a slightly more matted look to the anodizing simply from handling, one ding (from the brass ejected by an HK shooter to the left of me at an MG shoot), and a thinning of the anodizing on the top of the receiver's rear hoop from the bolt assist rod being cycled.

If I reassembled it with all of the original parts, it would not look like new, just minty. It is probably worth a couple grand less than if I had left it in the safe, unfired.

I'm OK with that because I didn't buy it as an investment ... and I've had a quarter century's worth of fun with it, and created a lifetime of priceless memories.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Posted: 11/17/2018 2:29:46 PM EDT

[#15]

I have an RR SP1 and an RLL for shooting. This is investment

Posted: 11/17/2018 6:35:58 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have an RR SP1 and an RLL for shooting. This is investment

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Then I would carefully clean it, oil it and put it away.

Posted: 11/17/2018 6:41:18 PM EDT

[#17]

The box in the OPs link looks like a commercial shipping box, much like what a 6920 comes in... not a Military box.. Modern Military boxes open at the top, and the only internal dividers are at the ends to keep the rifle in the middle. They also contain the MILITARY manual, not the commercial one. I can't image that changed much.

Posted: 11/17/2018 6:46:28 PM EDT

[#18]

Why do some have a "-" in m-16a1 and some do not?

Posted: 11/21/2018 4:22:21 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:
Why do some have a "-" in m-16a1 and some do not?

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I had never noticed. All of the 9-mil SN series have no hyphen.

Posted: 11/21/2018 4:45:20 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
You see the sellers other auctions? Has a genuine Russian SVD and a Walther WA2000

View Quote

yea I saw that

HERE is some of his other items for sale ( all super mint and expensive )

I bet this guys GB acct got hacked by a scammer

he has feedback of 1 single item as a seller ( 99% of his feedback is as a buyer )

seems strange he now has super expensive premium things for sale

Posted: 11/21/2018 4:51:22 PM EDT

[#21]

All I know is if I were rich I would buy everything he has.

Posted: 11/21/2018 5:24:55 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:

I had never noticed. All of the 9-mil SN series have no hyphen.

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That is what I am saying. The gunbroker gun has a dash.

Posted: 11/21/2018 9:25:43 PM EDT

[#23]

Well the army has them. I had a police agency loaner brand spanking new out of the factory card board box. We were loaned various 1969-1972 brand newbnever used rifles.

Not sure how you get transferable ones.

Posted: 11/21/2018 10:45:39 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
That is what I am saying. The gunbroker gun has a dash.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

I had never noticed. All of the 9-mil SN series have no hyphen.

That is what I am saying. The gunbroker gun has a dash.

The gun in question is a 5 million series not 9 million

Posted: 11/21/2018 10:52:07 PM EDT

[#25]

I feel puny..... with my inferior

RR ar15 SGW.....

oh well.. I'll just keep on shooting it.

Posted: 11/21/2018 10:52:14 PM EDT

[#26]

It's possible.

It was only a couple of years ago that I scored a dead freaking mint, unfired 601 compete upper (-bolt and carrier) still in Cosmoline, for all of 200 bucks.

I bought it for a retro build but actually I found that I simply did not have the heart to be the first person to shoot it and start putting wear and tear on an upper that had made it this far without even being cleaned of cosmoline.

I sold it to a "major player" in the MG market. For a fair profit. I'm sure it got mated up to a 601 correct lower in great condition and it's in some happy owner's safe by now.

Posted: 11/22/2018 12:36:05 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

The gun in question is a 5 million series not 9 million

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I am aware of that. Thus, my comment.

Posted: 11/22/2018 2:56:14 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:

The gun in question is a 5 million series not 9 million

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ya think I spotted the dash but not the SN?

So are you saying 5M has hyphens, while 9M does not?

Posted: 11/23/2018 8:57:07 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
IIRC, @tony_k once speculated about 7 years ago there were around a dozen NIB/unfired US Government Property M16 rifles in the registry; but I do not know if that was specific to M16A1 rifles or more rare variants. Granted, this was before all these rare collector grade/marked Colts hit the market. I can't find the thread now, but I think the discussion was around damcv62 talking about ripping two mags through an unfired M16 (XM177?) before selling it to a buyer.

ETA: There are a number of guns that have not been seen. There were veiled references to all the NIB Colts (such as the Tool Room serial M4) a couple years before they surfaced in the wild. With a couple thousand transferable models floating around, it's hard telling what is really out there. Look at some of the passing references from members like BigBore; he mentioned one of his customers has six - 6! - M16s for sale he bought in the early 1980s and he did not realize how much they were worth but is holding onto them as it's a "family" of rifles.

View Quote

It was a NIB M16A1 .gov prop marked gun. I was there when the buyer shot it. Was dishearting to say the least. The 600 some odd colts to be sold over the last 3 years from the “colt collector” likely had a couple more .gov prop marked A1’s. The number of A2 .gov prop marked guns had to be at least a couple hundred, they used to be top of the collector value mark but have suppressed the market something fierce.

Posted: 11/23/2018 9:00:01 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
The box in the OPs link looks like a commercial shipping box, much like what a 6920 comes in... not a Military box.. Modern Military boxes open at the top, and the only internal dividers are at the ends to keep the rifle in the middle. They also contain the MILITARY manual, not the commercial one. I can't image that changed much.

View Quote

The “colt collector” guns where mostly sold by one dealer, and he had a whole shop in his basement. Cases of flat Colt shipping boxes ready to be folded, Colt anti static bags, manuals, mag and cleaning kit packs. As a gun would sell they would just pop out a NIB kit for the gun. Just FYI.

Posted: 7/31/2019 9:28:28 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

yea I saw that

HERE is some of his other items for sale ( all super mint and expensive )

I bet this guys GB acct got hacked by a scammer

he has feedback of 1 single item as a seller ( 99% of his feedback is as a buyer )

seems strange he now has super expensive premium things for sale

View Quote

Nope, he is the real deal and you can buy with confidence from him

Posted: 8/18/2019 2:44:46 PM EDT

[#32]

I can tell you that they are definitely out there (my photos, not my gun):

Attached File

Posted: 8/18/2019 2:55:01 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Found this on GunBroker (not mine, obviously):

US Property Marked Colt M16A1 UNFIRED NIB RARE

How likely is an unfired NIB U.S. Property M16?

View Quote

I'm sure it has been fired!

Posted: 9/23/2019 1:16:02 PM EDT

[#34]

I have seen 4 transferable property marked colt M16A2 guns that are new in box, the first 2 of have a 6 million serial number had 40mm launchers attached from colt. The 3rd one Has a 6 million serial number, the 4th has an 8 million serial number.

Posted: 9/24/2019 12:15:30 AM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'm sure it has been fired!

View Quote

NOPE!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - GunBroker auction - likelihood of an unfired NIB U.S. Property M16?

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