Recently published by an atty. should help with questions that frequently pop up.
Prince Law Firm

 

Fixed Link 10-15 Tnx for the heads up ckichinko

Link is busted

Works for me

Thanks CS223. Very helpful!





 

Works now and thanks!

One would think that a law firm would know there's no such word as "irregardless"................        

Ha! I noticed that too.  Someone should send them an email.

that was a great read.

Once you get it approved and get your SBR, you should stop by and show it to the dip shit LEO

They did my trust.

Bought into Class 3 today on the way home.  Walther P22 with a can.  Didn't sound too expensive until I paid the ATF stamp

ETA: Read the blog.  Some good info, but when I saw the "word" "Irregardless" the grammar Nazi in me surfaced.

There is no such word.

Good info. Thanks for posting it. I'm setting up a trust for my new suppressor.

For all you grammar nazis who maintain that "irregardless" is NOT a word, you are wrong.  

Irregardless is in fact a word, albeit an improper or non-standard one.  It has been used in conversational as well as written english since at least the early 20th century.

While it represents a redundancy in its form, so do many other words that are considered "proper" english, such as "debone" and "unravel".

So, while as a grammar nazis you are right that "irregardless" is not the preferred, proper word to be used, it is in fact a word.  

Nah - regardless means something.

Irregardless means what?

regardless = despite

Irregardless - despite despite?  It repeats itself.

Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

Same as ain't, which used mainly for effect in humor.

While it may be a word, it's certainly not a word an educated lawyer should be using.

Irregardless if it is a word or not, I ain't using it, no way, no how.

Hey law guy, how's the weather.  It was so cold here yesterday, I saw a lawyer with his hand in his own pocket.

Joking!

Snowing here off and on today.  Like most cold blooded creatures, we lawyers tend to stay snug under our rocks and not move around much when the temperature drops.  When the sun warms things up a little we come out and slither in and out of things, pockets or whatever.  

Man at least you have a sense of humor!  Kinda grey around here lately.

We agree on much, including, it seems, that "irregardless" is at least a "word", although one we both would choose to not use.  

Snowing here off and on today.  Like most cold blooded creatures, we lawyers tend to stay snug under our rocks and not move around much when the temperature drops.  When the sun warms things up a little we come out and slither in and out of things, pockets or whatever.  


ETA:   Tried to make an edit and got a whole new post instead.  

Friend, I appreciate your good nature.  Have a great day!

Man... I'm still trying to figure out what inflammable means. And why the hell do we drive on a parkway, but park on a driveway?


Oh, and thanks for the link. Great info.

So I've read people stating that we need to send in just the "declaration of trust", then I hear others saying that we need to send in the whole trust. I created my trust and ended up with three parts:

1. Instructions, Declaration of Trust
2. Declaration of Trust (signed and notarized)
3. Schedule A, Property in Trust
4. Assignment of Property (signed)
5. Instructions: Letter to the Successor Trustee
6. Letter to Successor Trustee (includes names of trustees, grantors, and beneficiary)


Which of these are supposed to be sent in with the Form 4?

I sent it all.

A photo copy I'm guessing...

Yup

I want to start a trust with my self and my brother... here is my question he isn't going to be 21 till late may, I am guessing that he can't be in it till he's 21 am I right?  I am 23 and already have an SBR I registered threw my local guy here, I just want him to be able to use my cans or SBR with out me being there, I live in AZ and he is in CT.  me being military I want my NFA items to go to someone I trust when I deploy rather than sit in a storage unit.

Complicated issue using a Trust and moving an NFA item from its home jurisdiction

how is it complicated?

Make him a trustee or life beneficiary and then fill out the ATF paperwork (actually there may or not be paperwork on a supressor - you'll have to check) to move it.

Just out of curiosity, what did they charge you?.....if you don't mind.  IM if you prefer.

Thanks,
Sean

I was wondering as well.

Here is a sample Trust gratis - yes, you have to tailor it to your own circumstance, but it's free.  No warranty and YMMV.

If you go to a lawyer, take it, doll it up some and then post it so we can all benefit

Sample Trust

do you do the trust before or after the nfa item is made I am going to do a sbr of my daewoo k 2 thanks

Outside my scope, but do you have to pay the $200 to make the thing?  If so, I would try and have the trustee (you) make the item, using a trust.

Anyone used a RLT to purchase a silencer/silencer(s)? I have heard a lot of suggestions that this is definitely the way to go but I am having some trouble finding someone to enplane the process to me. Any Help with MUCH thanks in advance.

I already know that if I choose this route...My first cousin will be the man named in the Trust.  And he is also my SOT/FLL Class 3 Dealer but is new to it...just about going on his second year.  The reason for selecting him is because he has SAFE Storage room.  like 12X8 room with a safe door thats humidity controlled and all in his house and anything i ever own weapon related is going to him if something happens to me, and some of it might spend time their while im at school anyway.


is there an NFA RLT for Dummies somewhere, or just some old pro i could get some info from?

Yes and I used the trust sample 4 posts up

Here are some links I've come across:

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=107341

http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust

http://www.arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA_class3_weapons_with_a_revocable_living_trust_without_a_CLEO_signoff.html

Can someone tell me if trustee's can be added at a later date after creation of a trust?

Also, one of the above links say that trustee's can't possess the NFA items which makes no sense to me.

That's why you should have COMPETENT LEGAL advice, not that which you find on the internet. Moreover, the trust placed above is NOT NFA specific, it does not explain all the duties and obligations of the trustee, does not deal with NFA specific issues, and is alleged to be a Maryland trust (the trust law may have changed since that was written). For several hundred dollars, is it worth risking forfeiture and possible criminal prosecution? See my article http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/3/3/can-i-use-quicken-will-and-trust-maker-for-my-gun-nfa-trust

here we go again - it has worked so many times, I can't count them.  Are you saying the sample trust is no good for NFA?

This had probably already been answered... If duplicate I apologize.


Suppressors and AOWs do NOT require a 5320.20 to move or transport interstate. Only SBR, SBS, DD, and FA's do. Regardless of Trustee Status in your trust, no trustee can have possession (without yours or another Trustee's presence) unless he/she is over the age of 21 for ANY NFA (regardless of type). Example: If your primary trustee is 20 years old, he/she cannot be in sole possession of your NFA unless another trustee over 21 is present. Once he/she turns 21 then they can possess the items just as you can irrespective of primary ownership.

Same goes for Beneficiaries. Say you choose to bequeath your NFA collection to a child, and at the time of your passing your child is only 10 years old. You will also need to establish a Trustee to care for these items FOR your child until they reach legal age (21 years old) at which time per the guidance of the Trust your child fills out the requisite forms, mails them to the ATF, gains approval, and then takes possession of the NFA. Although your death transfers ownership of the device to your child, he/she cannot be in legal sole possession of the device(s) until they turn of age AND fulfill ATF's ownership criteria (meaning submitting to the background check and transferring procedure). The only difference between their transfer and your initial transfer is the device will transfer from your trust to them as individuals without the CLEO signoff and Tax. Fingerprints and photos will still be required (as I understand things). Unless you stipulate the Trust transfers with the device, then nothing is required except the registration form (x2) and proof of citizenship. Either way it transfers from you to them tax free.

Another factor that MUST be addressed is if the state the Trustee lives in disallows the particular NFA device, then the Trust is worthless to them. I have two properties. One is in Florida and the other is in Alabama. My trustee in Alabama cannot be in possession of my SBR or SBS due to state law, but they can be in possession of any of my full autos, suppressors, or AOW's (providing I have an approved 5320.20 for the full autos).

5320.20s will be approved in upwards of 1 year increments. I keep 5320.20's on hand for all my NFA (although its only required for my SBS, SBR, FA's, and DD's) for several states (that I frequent) for periods covering 1 Jan to 31 Dec of the particular year (month doesn't matter as long as its only for 1 year increments).  

Say that (as military) you get PCS'd to a state that does not allow NFA. You would fill out a 5320.20 for each NFA device making sure on the form you do NOT stipulate it will be returning to the original address. This will permanently move the item to the new state. When your 3 year tour is up and you can either EAOS or PCS to another station in a state that DOES allow the NFA in question, you simply fill out another 5320.20 for each item moving them to the state your currently in. It's a very simple form. Fill it out and fax it to the BATF or mail it in duplicate. You need NO other supporting documentation. You dont need to reattach a copy of the trust (they already have that on file for that particular item), or proof of citizenship. Just the 5320.20. Remember if mailing it, you need to mail 2 copies. If faxing then only one.

Hope this clears it up.

I am sorry but you are incorrect. Any person who is 18 years of age or older can own and possess any NFA firearm; however, an individual under the age of 21 cannot purchase a NFA firearm from a FFL/SOT. The GCA only prohibits dealers from selling to someone under the age of 21. The law does not prohibit an instate transfer (or the FFL exception to bequests where the beneficiary is in another state) to individuals who are 18 years of age or older.

Do I put the suppressor I'm purchasing under the 'Schedule A' along with serial number?

Or do I leave that blank since I haven't been approved for it.


Also, do I need to submit an 'Assignment of Property'?

Again, do I list the suppressor I am trying to purchase? Or leave that blank as well?

Schedule A is only for NFA items in your possession, so the suppressor you are purchasing is not yet in your possession, you do not include it.

AFAIK, assignment of property may be required to make your trust valid.

Since I was doing 2 SBR's, I assigned two lower receivers to my trust when I had it notarized.

I agree with roland.

SC-Texas glad to see your post.  Have a question for any who will answer.  

I live in Texas, have a LEO that will sign off and have a lawyer that owns SBR's and will help with trust.  I spoke to lawyer yesterday and he stated he used Quicken Willmaker for his trust.  Lawyer does family estate planing for a living (20+ years)  

Which way do I need to go?

Most people will tell you that if your CLEO will sigh go that way.

I have my trust completed via Quicken.

To make the trust valid, can I list a One Dollar Bill (w/ serial number) under the "Schedule A" & "Assignment of Property" ?

Once my Form 4  is approved, can I remove the one dollar bill from the trust?

Then create a new "Schedule A" and "Assignment of Property" with the suppressor listed.

The trust is the way to go becaue it avoids probate and you can list additional people who are allowed to posses the NFA items.

I was under the impression that the Garantor could not be a Trustee.  This would make the trust invalid.  Is this true?

No the grantor can also be a trustee - you just cannot be the grantor, trustee and beneficiary.

OK, thanks.  I guess if one thinks about it, being a beneficiary and grantor would not make sense.

I know the answer will vary some and isn't set in stone, but generally speaking how much does it cost to set up a gun trust? I am a Firearms Instructor in the Dallas area and want to get a SBR and silencer or three... I'm assuming you went with a revocable trust, but what are the general costs for both?

I had my Lawyer look at my ammended version of a Quicken Trust and he said there were no major problems with it from what he saw.  His major sticking point was that allot of people name themselves Grantors, Trustee and Beneficiary which causes major problems.  The other was in the trustees duties section.  The ability to "lease" trust property he said, needed to be deleted all together.   Also, you need to address that if your beneficiaries are unable or unwilling to accept the property or live in a municipality where Class 3's are outlawed, said property needs to be either sold or destroyed.  Other than that, a Quicken trust is an excellent way to go.  (This is NOT legal advice, so YMMV)