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Page Armory » M-16
Posted: 2/22/2022 12:57:38 PM EDT
Well I am expecting my m16 to be approved any day now, so I am starting to prepare!

I was impartial on whether to get an upgraded trigger or not, as I won't be using the weapon for precision work. However, I decided it may be good to get a different trigger in there regardless, to preserve the original for collectors and value's sake. So I think I will be going with the geissele SSF.

I just purchased a 22lr upper, so should be set there. Although I haven't found an in stock CMMG Auto Sear Trip Kit, so thats a problem. Let me know if you know someone selling an extra or where I can find one in stock!

I haven't decided which 5.56 upper to get for it yet.... But I have a few AR's so I figure I can use one of those in the meantime.

Any other must have's??
Link Posted: 2/22/2022 1:41:54 PM EDT
[#1]
The Geissele SSF is a wonderful trigger. I really like mine. I'm a fan of Geissele triggers.. near every AR I have has a Geissele. Only issue I have with it is that I don't believe it is compatible with my Razorback. I read it has issues.. which I am currently having. I plan to change out to a lighter spring first to see if that helps.
Not sure how well it will work with the CMMG 22LR. I haven't had a chance to test mine out yet. On a MCR it works fine.

So your looking for uppers. Here are the ones I'm aware of that: Sadly most are not available new.. hence very expensive.
AM180: Basically a upper that uses a American 180 drum. I have never shot one of these.. but shooting a real American 180 is fun!
Razorback belfed 22LR: Finicky. Haven't really worked out all the issues. Read it could be the SSF trigger. Going to have to change out the spring and milspec trigger to see if it runs.
FM-9: No experience but I want one!
MCR (Shrike) beltfed: Some are finky. When it runs, it is fun. When it doesn't.. it's frustrating. It takes a bit of tuning. It does work with the SSF.
CMMG 22LR Upper with CMMG auto sear: Haven't run it. It may require tuning from reading about it.



Link Posted: 2/23/2022 9:08:25 PM EDT
[#2]
I'm in the same boat. Geissele makes great triggers though I have heard good things about the HIPERFIRE Hipertouch Auto Trigger. My only concern would be with compatibility with various uppers (CMMG .22 dedicated and the 9mm Radial Delayed Blowback uppers) and that makes me lean towards the SSF.

If anyone has experience with both, I would really appreciate some feedback.
Link Posted: 2/23/2022 9:19:49 PM EDT
[#3]
I've got both. I haven't tried the hyperfire yet. It's been sitting around for a year and I haven't gotten it installed yet.

I went to order the G SSF and Geissele wouldn't sell it to me without an approved F4. That was rather annoying. I ended up sourcing a SSF from Brownells and installed it when my form cleared. Hyperfire happily sold me their auto trigger and even gave me a .mil discount.

Given my other Hyperfire triggers and how my SSF feels, I think I'll like the Hyperfire trigger a little better.
Link Posted: 2/24/2022 7:30:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Primary Arms had the SSF on holiday sale for $295 which is the lowest I have found so far.
Link Posted: 2/24/2022 7:32:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jaqufrost] [#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mmrpm:
Primary Arms had the SSF on holiday sale for $295 which is the lowest I have found so far.
View Quote
That's a good price. I think Brownells was $400 and I had a $30 coupon.
Link Posted: 2/25/2022 1:43:03 AM EDT
[#6]
I use to buy/sell Geissele as a distributor many years ago.. Black Friday is the best time to buy since the prices would be same as dealer pricing.. If you don't mind waiting that long.
Since pricing got competitive I decided to stop selling due to low margins.
Link Posted: 2/28/2022 10:59:03 AM EDT
[#7]
No personal experience with the Geissele SSF trigger assembly, but IIRC, there have been a number of threads wherein it was reported that a change to a lighter spring was necessary to achieve proper function using the Geissele SSF trigger assembly in connection with M16 full auto .22LR operation.  But, as is the case with virtually all M16 full auto .22LR implementations, many factors can effect proper operation.

Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with or financial interest in any vendor or manufacturer; and I am not a competitive shooter or a blogger who receives any form of compensation for endorsements or favorable public or private comments.  Use of vendor and/or product brand names, if any, is for informational purposes only.

Best of luck.
MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.
Link Posted: 2/28/2022 7:51:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mmrpm:
I'm in the same boat. Geissele makes great triggers though I have heard good things about the HIPERFIRE Hipertouch Auto Trigger. My only concern would be with compatibility with various uppers (CMMG .22 dedicated and the 9mm Radial Delayed Blowback uppers) and that makes me lean towards the SSF.

If anyone has experience with both, I would really appreciate some feedback.
View Quote

I have a Hiperfire EDT-SF, home-built CMMG 22LR upper runs great.  Factory 9mm RDB upper I can get some bursts, then hammer follow or light strike? -- haven't diagnosed yet and have only had it out once.  Using the stronger spring it comes with.  My receiver is an old PAWS that's out of spec though.
Link Posted: 3/1/2022 1:56:43 AM EDT
[#9]
I recommend testing a Hiperfire if you can. Not all of them are good.. Call some stores to see if they have HF displays. i know some stores have their sample setups.
At one of their booths, I have shot some crappy feeling HF and some quality HF, but I don't know what model it was. I do know it was the more expensive version though.
Link Posted: 3/8/2022 2:12:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mmrpm:
I'm in the same boat. Geissele makes great triggers though I have heard good things about the HIPERFIRE Hipertouch Auto Trigger. My only concern would be with compatibility with various uppers (CMMG .22 dedicated and the 9mm Radial Delayed Blowback uppers) and that makes me lean towards the SSF.

If anyone has experience with both, I would really appreciate some feedback.
View Quote


My SSF ran great with .223 and my CMMG 9mm upper.  It had some timing issues with my .22 upper (worked without issue with original trigger).  I ended up pulling out the SSF as I wanted it to work with all my uppers (without having to tweak things to get it to work).
Link Posted: 3/10/2022 1:29:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Thanks for the info. I think I will just try running everything with the stock trigger. I would hate to drop $300+ on a trigger that doesn't play nice with all uppers especially sincet I can only use it in one rifle.
Link Posted: 3/18/2022 4:08:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: deadeye99] [#12]
I have the ssf in my RR. It works with all my uppers just fine. The cmmg 22 bolt was working perfectly for me prior to the ssf and one magazine after I installed the ssf the sear trip and firing pin broke. They had been heavily used so it was just a coincidence I believe. I had a very hard time getting the conversion to work again, trying multiple different ammo's and springs, etc. I finally got the bore buddy weight kit and it's as close to 100% as a 22 can be. I really didn't like having nice triggers in all my other AR's and not in my best one. Also works perfectly with the cmmg RDB 9mm.
Link Posted: 3/24/2022 11:00:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AknotArguy] [#13]
Congrats, I’m also expecting mine in hopefully in a week or so


for what it’s worth I debated on the SSF trigger & it’s 100% worth it.

Another nice upgrade is the Griffen armament 60/120 M16 selector, it makes getting it from safe to auto and in between very easy compared to the long throw of a traditional selector.
Here is a clip of the selector

Griffen selector gif

It took me a couple of months to find a used CMMG auto sear so start getting your feelers out now. They sold out after the FRT triggers came out



Link Posted: 3/24/2022 1:47:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AknotArguy:
Congrats, I’m also expecting mine in hopefully in a week or so


for what it’s worth I debated on the SSF trigger & it’s 100% worth it.

Another nice upgrade is the Griffen armament 60/120 M16 selector, it makes getting it from safe to auto and in between very easy compared to the long throw of a traditional selector.
Here is a clip of the selector

https://imgur.com/a/kh8Tlmr

It took me a couple months to find a used CMMG auto sear so start getting your feelers out now. They sold out after the FRT triggers came out
View Quote


I'll have to look at the Griffin Armament selector. Didn't know they made one.

Well many CMMG auto sears will go back on the market due to the AFT are still pushing forward that they are machine guns.. (They just sent FFLs a open letter stating as such)
Link Posted: 3/24/2022 10:24:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AknotArguy] [#15]
Originally Posted By Ryo:


I'll have to look at the Griffin Armament selector. Didn't know they made one.

Well many CMMG auto sears will go back on the market due to the AFT are still pushing forward that they are machine guns.. (They just sent FFLs a open letter stating as such)
View Quote




yeah me either. I had heard of the vaporware geiselle short-throw m16 selector so i got to searching & came up with nothing, then happened upon a guy on Reddit who turned me on to the Griffen product. It's such a nice upgrade & ambi too.
Link Posted: 3/25/2022 11:14:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Arms Unlimited often lists an inexpensive, conventional full-throw ambi selector if ambi is more important than range of motion.

Link Posted: 4/3/2022 2:38:16 PM EDT
[#17]
I picked up the BAD-ASS FA PRO for $46 and BAD claims it is 100% compatible with all known AR variant lower receivers. However until my form 4 clears, I will not be able to test it.
Link Posted: 4/4/2022 1:51:39 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mmrpm:
I picked up the BAD-ASS FA PRO for $46 and BAD claims it is 100% compatible with all known AR variant lower receivers. However until my form 4 clears, I will not be able to test it.
View Quote


I believe that's what I have right now.
Link Posted: 4/4/2022 7:12:15 AM EDT
[#19]
I run a SSF in my M16 with a Atchisson/Ciener .22 kit and I don't have any issues with them working together. I believe the CMMG conversion is a direct copy of the Atchisson/Ciener kit but correct me if I'm wrong.
Just a tip, to try to ensure as close to flawless function as possible out of the kit, I took a stone to all the sharp edges on all the parts of the kit and I keep it clean and very well lubricated when I shoot it.
I actually prefer shooting the M16 in .22 than I do in 5.56 and the SSF trigger is a huge improvement over the original parts.
For a budget upper I dug through my parts stash and came up with a M4 upper which I mounted a pencil thin barrel to after I had it cut that threaded at 10". As gas isn't necessary for the .22 kit, I took an old gas tube and cut it off at about 2" and then flattened the exposed part and folded it onto itself to seal up the gas port to make a dedicated .22 upper that my kit lives in.
I run it with a suppressor and it's a lot of fun. I especially like not getting a gas bukkake to the face like I do when I run 5.56.
Link Posted: 4/4/2022 10:56:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SecondAmend] [#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By akchef:
... I believe the CMMG conversion is a direct copy of the Atchisson/Ciener kit but correct me if I'm wrong...
View Quote


This is all off the top of my head and subject to addition/correction/criticism: First of all, there are two distinct Atchisson patented .22 conversions for the AR-15/M16 pattern firearms.  The so-called Atchisson MkI is described in U.S. Patent No. (USPN) 3776095.  The MkI conversion was not as popular as the later MkII/III version that is described in USPN 4169329, but all versions come up for sale on GunBroker.  As I understand it, the MII and MkIII sub-versions differ as to the firing pin that is incorporated.  As one can see from the patents, there are many differences between the MkI and the MkII/III.  Ciener worked with Atchisson to develop the MkIII and bought all rights, interest and tooling to it in 1993.  I believe the MkII/III patents expired in 1997.

The CMMG conversion has evolved since its first introduction around 2008.  The initial CMMG product was quite similar to the Atchisson MkIII.  The CMMG product has gone from carbon steel, phosphate coated steel; to including a stainless steel version; to having a version with a brass collared adapter; to going back to all stainless steel; to having a left hand as well as right hand version; to using a standard AR-15 size firing pin cotter pin retainer instead of a tension pin to retain the firing pin (USPN 8316755).  There was also a CMMG version that was Beta tested but, to the best of my knowledge not released for general sales, of a chamber adapter that had a rotating lock to prevent fore/aft frame movement (USPN 8726560).  There was also a modular RH/LH design ("Evolution") that was patented, but not released (USPN 8826797).

The auto sear trip and anti-bounce weight (ABW) are different for the Atchisson MkI and MkII/III versions.  Likewise, CMMG implements a different auto sear trip than the Atchisson versions.  The CMMG ABW is unique (USPN 8590199) as well in that it includes forward assist capability to the conversion unit; and it has to be modified (lug at the rear removed) to be used with early CMMG conversions or with Atchisson MkII/III conversions.  The Atchisson MkII/III ABW needs no modification to perform the ABW function in CMMG conversions.  The CMMG ABW (approx. 0.75-0.8 oz.) is about 0.2 oz. or so lighter than the Atchisson/Ciener ABW.

Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with or financial interest in any vendor or manufacturer; and I am not a competitive shooter or a blogger who receives any form of compensation for endorsements or favorable public or private comments.  Use of vendor and/or product brand names, if any, is for informational purposes only.

Best of luck.
MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.
Link Posted: 4/5/2022 9:53:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SecondAmend:


This is all off the top of my head and subject to addition/correction/criticism: First of all, there are two distinct Atchisson patented .22 conversions for the AR-15/M16 pattern firearms.  The so-called Atchisson MkI is described in U.S. Patent No. (USPN) 3776095.  The MkI conversion was not as popular as the later MkII/III version that is described in USPN 4169329, but all versions come up for sale on GunBroker.  As I understand it, the MII and MkIII sub-versions differ as to the firing pin that is incorporated.  As one can see from the patents, there are many differences between the MkI and the MkII/III.  Ciener worked with Atchisson to develop the MkIII and bought all rights, interest and tooling to it in 1993.  I believe the MkII/III patents expired in 1997.

The CMMG conversion has evolved since its first introduction around 2008.  The initial CMMG product was quite similar to the Atchisson MkIII.  The CMMG product has gone from carbon steel, phosphate coated steel; to including a stainless steel version; to having a version with a brass collared adapter; to going back to all stainless steel; to having a left hand as well as right hand version; to using a standard AR-15 size firing pin cotter pin retainer instead of a tension pin to retain the firing pin (USPN 8316755).  There was also a CMMG version that was Beta tested but, to the best of my knowledge not released for general sales, of a chamber adapter that had a rotating lock to prevent fore/aft frame movement (USPN 8726560).  There was also a modular RH/LH design ("Evolution") that was patented, but not released (USPN 8826797).

The auto sear trip and anti-bounce weight (ABW) are different for the Atchisson MkI and MkII/III versions.  Likewise, CMMG implements a different auto sear trip than the Atchisson versions.  The CMMG ABW is unique (USPN 8590199) as well in that it includes forward assist capability to the conversion unit; and it has to be modified (lug at the rear removed) to be used with early CMMG conversions or with Atchisson MkII/III conversions.  The Atchisson MkII/III ABW needs no modification to perform the ABW function in CMMG conversions.  The CMMG ABW (approx. 0.75-0.8 oz.) is about 0.2 oz. or so lighter than the Atchisson/Ciener ABW.

Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with or financial interest in any vendor or manufacturer; and I am not a competitive shooter or a blogger who receives any form of compensation for endorsements or favorable public or private comments.  Use of vendor and/or product brand names, if any, is for informational purposes only.

Best of luck.
MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SecondAmend:
Originally Posted By akchef:
... I believe the CMMG conversion is a direct copy of the Atchisson/Ciener kit but correct me if I'm wrong...


This is all off the top of my head and subject to addition/correction/criticism: First of all, there are two distinct Atchisson patented .22 conversions for the AR-15/M16 pattern firearms.  The so-called Atchisson MkI is described in U.S. Patent No. (USPN) 3776095.  The MkI conversion was not as popular as the later MkII/III version that is described in USPN 4169329, but all versions come up for sale on GunBroker.  As I understand it, the MII and MkIII sub-versions differ as to the firing pin that is incorporated.  As one can see from the patents, there are many differences between the MkI and the MkII/III.  Ciener worked with Atchisson to develop the MkIII and bought all rights, interest and tooling to it in 1993.  I believe the MkII/III patents expired in 1997.

The CMMG conversion has evolved since its first introduction around 2008.  The initial CMMG product was quite similar to the Atchisson MkIII.  The CMMG product has gone from carbon steel, phosphate coated steel; to including a stainless steel version; to having a version with a brass collared adapter; to going back to all stainless steel; to having a left hand as well as right hand version; to using a standard AR-15 size firing pin cotter pin retainer instead of a tension pin to retain the firing pin (USPN 8316755).  There was also a CMMG version that was Beta tested but, to the best of my knowledge not released for general sales, of a chamber adapter that had a rotating lock to prevent fore/aft frame movement (USPN 8726560).  There was also a modular RH/LH design ("Evolution") that was patented, but not released (USPN 8826797).

The auto sear trip and anti-bounce weight (ABW) are different for the Atchisson MkI and MkII/III versions.  Likewise, CMMG implements a different auto sear trip than the Atchisson versions.  The CMMG ABW is unique (USPN 8590199) as well in that it includes forward assist capability to the conversion unit; and it has to be modified (lug at the rear removed) to be used with early CMMG conversions or with Atchisson MkII/III conversions.  The Atchisson MkII/III ABW needs no modification to perform the ABW function in CMMG conversions.  The CMMG ABW (approx. 0.75-0.8 oz.) is about 0.2 oz. or so lighter than the Atchisson/Ciener ABW.

Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with or financial interest in any vendor or manufacturer; and I am not a competitive shooter or a blogger who receives any form of compensation for endorsements or favorable public or private comments.  Use of vendor and/or product brand names, if any, is for informational purposes only.

Best of luck.
MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.

Some additional differences that have come to mind:
At or about the time CMMG introduced their ABW with forward assist, as well as adding a hole to the frame back plate to accommodate the forward assist lug, they also cut the bottom off the back plate on the conversion frame.  The back plate was previously circular as is the back plate on the Atchisson/Ciener MkII/III conversion.
The CMMG ABW has a deeper notch at the rear where the ABW interfaces with the recoil spring tube than does the Atchisson/Ciener ABW.  The CMMG ABW also has a flat top and feet on the bottom.
Around 2013 or so CMMG started using an extractor with a small notch in the claw.  This is often mistaken as a chipped extractor.  It is a deliberately made feature.
Atchisson/Ciener .22 (steel) conversion magazines are not compatible with the McFadden speed loader, but are compatible with the CMMG hand push loader.

MHO. YMMV, etc.  Be well.
Link Posted: 4/6/2022 9:44:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Finally got to shoot my gun at the local FFL/SOT while waiting for form 4 to clear.

I have a dedicated CMMG .22lr upper that I put together with a CMMG trip and weight. Test fired with 2 blackdog 32rd and one 50rd drum. Pleased to say not even a hiccup and the .22lr will likely be my favorite. All fired with suppressor.

Next up was a CMMG RDBB 9mm upper. Ran 4 30rd ARC pmags through it. 3 mags with can on one without and again ran flawlessly.
Page Armory » M-16
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