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Posted: 6/22/2021 12:17:07 PM EDT
Admittedly green as grass on the subject, preparing for my first stamp.


Came across THIS ARTICLE

Kind of threw me for a loop, specifically these statements:


If you manufacture a NFA device from an existing firearm, according to the ATF you DO NOT need to immediately engrave your information into the firearm. Much like how firearms manufactured from a 80% lower receiver don’t require engraving upon completion, the ATF believes that the mere act of manufacture of an existing NFA device doesn’t require additional engraving. The existing serial number is sufficient for identification.


So, when do you need to engrave your Form 1’ed SBR? The answer: when you intend to sell it. The same holds true for a silencer if you made application to make it yourself. Engraving requirements apply to firearms that are intended for sale in interstate commerce, so when you go to sell your gun you’re going to need to have it engraved.


Ive read the ATF requirements regarding engraving, but this shit is confusing. (CFR Ch II/4-1-10 Edition)


Any reference links to vetted info are appreciated.

If you have nothing more than speculation, it'll do nothing more than muddy the waters further for me.

TIA

Tig
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 12:40:03 PM EDT
Except the ATF has been known to stamp on the approvals in the “Approved (With following conditions, if any)” section :
“Per 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, the maker must stamp
the firearm with makers name, city and state”

Pic
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 12:42:33 PM EDT
But nobody is checking your engravings.  So by the time it’s an issue you’ll already be facing more serious charges.  Engraving is cheap, and can be done in locations that don’t detract from your gun, so it’s not an issue i see as worth pushing back too hard on either.  YMMV
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 12:45:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2021 12:54:10 PM EDT by Villafuego]
That TTAG article is 100% incorrect..... there have been numerous threads here about it.... it has to be done when the NFA "firearm" is made/manufactured

See page 6 of the linked PDF

MARKING REQUIREMENTS – NFA FIREARMS (27 CFR § 479.102)
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 12:47:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By blemfield:
Except the ATF has been known to stamp on the approvals in the “Approved (With following conditions, if any)” section :
“Per 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, the maker must stamp
the firearm with makers name, city and state”

Pic
View Quote

Interesting.

Thanks man.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 12:52:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By blemfield:
But nobody is checking your engravings.  So by the time it’s an issue you’ll already be facing more serious charges.  Engraving is cheap, and can be done in locations that don’t detract from your gun, so it’s not an issue i see as worth pushing back too hard on either.  YMMV
View Quote

Having it engraved is not an issue. Just attempting to ascertain the lines of compliance and stay inside of them. Everything required and nothing extra.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 12:58:08 PM EDT
https://nfalawyers.com/do-i-have-to-engrave-the-short-barrel-rifle-or-suppressor-i-made/

Link Posted: 6/22/2021 1:04:08 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Villafuego:
That TTAG article is 100% incorrect..... there have been numerous threads here about it.... it has to be done when the NFA "firearm" is made/manufactured

See page 6 of the linked PDF

MARKING REQUIREMENTS – NFA FIREARMS (27 CFR § 479.102)
View Quote

Yeah, read it over and over.

Info is already present from original mfgr.

And by "remanufacturing" it as an SBR , individual's name/location info is required, (that has always been my understanding).

The article puts just enough "reasoning" out there that it is......confusing.


In all honesty,  the linked pic of ATF stamp above tells me all I need know personally.



Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 1:06:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By peachy:
https://nfalawyers.com/do-i-have-to-engrave-the-short-barrel-rifle-or-suppressor-i-made/

View Quote




The ATF further clarified its position on engraving in ATF Rule 2013-3, dated July 10, 2013. This Rule states, “The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of the State)…


More than enough for me.


Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 1:20:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2021 2:50:36 PM EDT by Holdemdown]
Edit- engraving is indeed required.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 1:33:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Holdemdown:
I recently found this out myself.  I will not be engraving my lower when the stamp comes in, its not required and a waste of time and money.
View Quote

Erring on the side of caution, I'll have mine engraved.


I generally tend to come up short when gambling and if not for bad luck I tend to not have much of any.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 1:43:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Holdemdown:
I recently found this out myself.  I will not be engraving my lower when the stamp comes in, its not required and a waste of time and money.
View Quote

Originally Posted By Holdemdown:
I recently found this out myself.  I will not be engraving my lower when the stamp comes in, its not required and a waste of time and money.
View Quote

Can you post the relevant section that led you to believe that? You are making a new gun and the rules say the maker needs to mark the gun.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 2:06:40 PM EDT
Speaking of engraving what do you guys use to engrave? And do you need to add a new serial number or just Name, City and State?
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 2:12:58 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gqllc:
Speaking of engraving what do you guys use to engrave? And do you need to add a new serial number or just Name, City and State?
View Quote

I'll have a local shop laser engrave mine to meet minimum requirements.

AFAIK,  existing SN is gtg. Adding name/city/state is required.


But I am new to this game.....
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 2:19:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2021 2:19:36 PM EDT by Johnny_Longslide]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:

I'll have a local shop laser engrave mine to meet minimum requirements.

AFAIK,  existing SN is gtg. Adding name/city/state is required.


But I am new to this game.....
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By gqllc:
Speaking of engraving what do you guys use to engrave? And do you need to add a new serial number or just Name, City and State?

I'll have a local shop laser engrave mine to meet minimum requirements.

AFAIK,  existing SN is gtg. Adding name/city/state is required.


But I am new to this game.....

This is correct.

Individual: Name, City, State
Trust: Trust name, City, State

Don't get easier than that.

And I will always recommend THSF for any and all engraving needs as they are awesome.



Link Posted: 6/22/2021 2:20:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:

I'll have a local shop laser engrave mine to meet minimum requirements.

AFAIK,  existing SN is gtg. Adding name/city/state is required.


But I am new to this game.....
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By gqllc:
Speaking of engraving what do you guys use to engrave? And do you need to add a new serial number or just Name, City and State?

I'll have a local shop laser engrave mine to meet minimum requirements.

AFAIK,  existing SN is gtg. Adding name/city/state is required.


But I am new to this game.....


99% of the time that's all that needs to be added on a F1 SBR. Normally the original manufacturers markings satisfy the remainder of the requirements.

If, for instance, you were manufacturing an SBR out of an 80% lower you completed, you'd have to add a serial # and caliber markings as well
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 2:28:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Villafuego:


99% of the time that's all that needs to be added on a F1 SBR. Normally the original manufacturers markings satisfy the remainder of the requirements.

If, for instance, you were manufacturing an SBR out of an 80% lower you completed, you'd have to add a serial # and caliber markings as well
View Quote

Yeah, the 80 percent route adds a bit. Should have specified that.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 2:29:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Johnny_Longslide:

This is correct.

Individual: Name, City, State
Trust: Trust name, City, State

Don't get easier than that.

And I will always recommend THSF for any and all engraving needs as they are awesome.



View Quote

I've heard nothing but good things about Tarheel.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 8:01:24 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Villafuego:
99% of the time that's all that needs to be added on a F1 SBR. Normally the original manufacturers markings satisfy the remainder of the requirements.
View Quote


How does that work on "multi" caliber marked lowers? Just wondering... being I have one I might be thinking about doing.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 8:15:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2021 8:15:56 PM EDT by KitBuilder]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Screwball:
How does that work on "multi" caliber marked lowers?
View Quote
If the barrel is already engraved with the caliber (which most are) then it satisfies the requirement.

The "multi" marking is completely meaningless.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 8:15:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Screwball:


How does that work on "multi" caliber marked lowers? Just wondering... being I have one I might be thinking about doing.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Screwball:
Originally Posted By Villafuego:
99% of the time that's all that needs to be added on a F1 SBR. Normally the original manufacturers markings satisfy the remainder of the requirements.


How does that work on "multi" caliber marked lowers? Just wondering... being I have one I might be thinking about doing.
Have it engraved with the caliber you filed as.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 8:58:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Have it engraved with the caliber you filed as.
View Quote

Most barrels are already marked.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 9:32:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:

Most barrels are already marked.
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Have it engraved with the caliber you filed as.

Most barrels are already marked.
Yes but the directions state it has to be "readily" visible.  Depending of barrel/rail configuration I'd say it's not readily visible.
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 10:09:08 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Yes but the directions state it has to be "readily" visible.  Depending of barrel/rail configuration I'd say it's not readily visible.
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Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Have it engraved with the caliber you filed as.

Most barrels are already marked.
Yes but the directions state it has to be "readily" visible.  Depending of barrel/rail configuration I'd say it's not readily visible.

"Caliber (not required if barrel is marked with caliber in a conspicuous location) " is what I'm seeing from reading.

My intended receiver is marked so at least I have that going for me. (Unless I change my mind again....
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 10:32:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:

"Caliber (not required if barrel is marked with caliber in a conspicuous location) " is what I'm seeing from reading.

My intended receiver is marked so at least I have that going for me. (Unless I change my mind again....
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Have it engraved with the caliber you filed as.

Most barrels are already marked.
Yes but the directions state it has to be "readily" visible.  Depending of barrel/rail configuration I'd say it's not readily visible.

"Caliber (not required if barrel is marked with caliber in a conspicuous location) " is what I'm seeing from reading.

My intended receiver is marked so at least I have that going for me. (Unless I change my mind again....
Yeah as long as it's easily visible it can be on the barrel.  Otherwise just have it engraved with your name/trust.  No big deal
Link Posted: 6/22/2021 10:52:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Yeah as long as it's easily visible it can be on the barrel.  Otherwise just have it engraved with your name/trust.  No big deal
View Quote

Makes sense. Easy enough to do.
Link Posted: 6/23/2021 8:14:01 PM EDT
Ok, so then here's a question, you engrave the caliber on the lower, but according to the ATF and the rules, once you have your SBR, it's legal to plop a different upper in a different caliber on it.  As I understand it, the ATF doesn't even require any sort of paperwork, they just "request" you amend your form 1 to include other calibers that the firearm will be using.  What happens if the receiver is engraved with say, 30 caliber, and you are at the range one day with your 9mm upper on it and some busy body or "official" wants to see it and your paperwork?

Can you get in trouble for having that 9mm upper on a lower that is engraved with "30 caliber"?
Link Posted: 6/23/2021 8:25:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EDL:
Ok, so then here's a question, you engrave the caliber on the lower, but according to the ATF and the rules, once you have your SBR, it's legal to plop a different upper in a different caliber on it.  As I understand it, the ATF doesn't even require any sort of paperwork, they just "request" you amend your form 1 to include other calibers that the firearm will be using.  What happens if the receiver is engraved with say, 30 caliber, and you are at the range one day with your 9mm upper on it and some busy body or "official" wants to see it and your paperwork?

Can you get in trouble for having that 9mm upper on a lower that is engraved with "30 caliber"?
View Quote

You’d have to be pretty deep before something like that ever got brought up. Luckily most barrels are marked. In the few cases I know of people getting checked all they wanted to see was the stamped form.
Link Posted: 6/23/2021 8:33:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2021 8:39:16 PM EDT by Tigwelder1971]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EDL:
Ok, so then here's a question, you engrave the caliber on the lower, but according to the ATF and the rules, once you have your SBR, it's legal to plop a different upper in a different caliber on it.  As I understand it, the ATF doesn't even require any sort of paperwork, they just "request" you amend your form 1 to include other calibers that the firearm will be using.  What happens if the receiver is engraved with say, 30 caliber, and you are at the range one day with your 9mm upper on it and some busy body or "official" wants to see it and your paperwork?

Can you get in trouble for having that 9mm upper on a lower that is engraved with "30 caliber"?
View Quote

Short of any fuckey state laws, the ATF site states....


"Section 12.1 Maintaining proof of registration. The NFA requires that a person possessing a firearm registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) retain proof of registration which must be made available to the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or investigator, upon request. Proof of registration would be on a Form 1 registering a firearm to its maker, Form 2 registering a firearm to an importer or manufacturer, or a Form 3, 4, or 5 showing registration of a firearm to a transferee."


Some mouth at the range or heady RSO? Eta dik would be my response.

ETA: I get it all the time...."you know, bbls <16" have to be pinned/welded. I couldn't help but notice, yours looks shorter. Do you have a registered gun?"
I just laugh usually. Occasionally have to be a dick to stop the clucking.

Link Posted: 6/23/2021 8:35:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EDL:
As I understand it, the ATF doesn't even require any sort of paperwork, they just "request" you amend your form 1 to include other calibers that the firearm will be using.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By EDL:
As I understand it, the ATF doesn't even require any sort of paperwork, they just "request" you amend your form 1 to include other calibers that the firearm will be using.
That's not what they're requesting.

They request that, if you make a permanent change in configuration, you send a notification updating their records (NFRTR) to the current configuration.

It doesn't mean they want a "listing" of calibers. It's only configured as 1 caliber at a time. If that change isn't permanent then don't even consider notifying them.
It isn't required, in any case.

You cannot "register" the firearm in more than 1 caliber at a time, and any attempt to do so would be pointless, and also encourage rejection (as occurs when tried on a Form 1 since about 13 years ago).

What happens if the receiver is engraved with say, 30 caliber, and you are at the range one day with your 9mm upper on it and some busy body or "official" wants to see it and your paperwork?
Does the barrel have 9mm engraved on it?
If so then it's fine. That's an acceptable engraving location.

The receiver's caliber engraving becomes erroneous and pointless at that point. It doesn't matter that it's still present.
It doesn't matter what caliber is listed on the previously approved NFA form either.

Also, nobody cares.
(Nobody employed by the ATF, or LE, anyway.)

Can you get in trouble for having that 9mm upper on a lower that is engraved with "30 caliber"?
No.

Unless you call arguing with some self-righteous Fudd RSO "trouble".
Seriously, I doubt anyone would ever raise the issue. It's not illegal.
Link Posted: 6/25/2021 11:29:02 AM EDT
Regarding engraving name, city, state:

Under the proposed pistol brace rules, most braced equipped pistols will be retroactively classified as SBR's if no ATF directed action is taken.  On a factory brace equipped pistol (SIG MPX/MCX for example) YOU WERE NOT THE PERSON/ENTITY THAT MADE IT, SIG DID.  ATF says do a Form 1 to MAKE and Register it as a SBR.  However, I contend that if it came that way from the factory (You did not buy and install a separate brace), you cannot fill out and submit a Form 1 without committing perjury by signing that you were the MAKER and by engraving it as you were the maker since SIG was the maker.  There should be supplemental instructions that say no tax (this might be a case of Ex Post Facto) and no engraving on a factory brace equipped pistol (the maker is already on it).

Regarding simply removing the brace from a factory brace equipped pistol:

ATF says just remove the brace.  However, since ATF will have retroactively classified it as a Short Barrel RIFLE, if one looks at the instructions for doing a Form 1, it says a Form 1 must be done to convert a RIFLE into a pistol.  It does not differentiate between types of rifles.  Again, ATF is saying to break the law.  Now it may be different if you were the one who added a brace VS a pistol that came from the factory with a brace.   Note: This could be a timing issue...remove brace before the date that braced pistols are retroactively ruled SBR's.  

Link Posted: 6/25/2021 11:53:32 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WholeBunches:
Regarding engraving name, city, state:

Under the proposed pistol brace rules, most braced equipped pistols will be retroactively classified as SBR's if no ATF directed action is taken.  On a factory brace equipped pistol (SIG MPX/MCX for example) YOU WERE NOT THE PERSON/ENTITY THAT MADE IT, SIG DID.  ATF says do a Form 1 to MAKE and Register it as a SBR.  However, I contend that if it came that way from the factory (You did not buy and install a separate brace), you cannot fill out and submit a Form 1 without committing perjury by signing that you were the MAKER and by engraving it as you were the maker since SIG was the maker.  There should be supplemental instructions that say no tax (this might be a case of Ex Post Facto) and no engraving on a factory brace equipped pistol (the maker is already on it).

Regarding simply removing the brace from a factory brace equipped pistol:

ATF says just remove the brace.  However, since ATF will have retroactively classified it as a Short Barrel RIFLE, if one looks at the instructions for doing a Form 1, it says a Form 1 must be done to convert a RIFLE into a pistol.  It does not differentiate between types of rifles.  Again, ATF is saying to break the law.  Now it may be different if you were the one who added a brace VS a pistol that came from the factory with a brace.   Note: This could be a timing issue...remove brace before the date that braced pistols are retroactively ruled SBR's.  

View Quote

That's a whole 'nother ball of confusing fuckery there.
Link Posted: 6/25/2021 11:59:37 AM EDT
Yup no sense in guessing what they will do.
Link Posted: 6/25/2021 1:43:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:

That's a whole 'nother ball of confusing fuckery there.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By WholeBunches:
Regarding engraving name, city, state:

Under the proposed pistol brace rules, most braced equipped pistols will be retroactively classified as SBR's if no ATF directed action is taken.  On a factory brace equipped pistol (SIG MPX/MCX for example) YOU WERE NOT THE PERSON/ENTITY THAT MADE IT, SIG DID.  ATF says do a Form 1 to MAKE and Register it as a SBR.  However, I contend that if it came that way from the factory (You did not buy and install a separate brace), you cannot fill out and submit a Form 1 without committing perjury by signing that you were the MAKER and by engraving it as you were the maker since SIG was the maker.  There should be supplemental instructions that say no tax (this might be a case of Ex Post Facto) and no engraving on a factory brace equipped pistol (the maker is already on it).

Regarding simply removing the brace from a factory brace equipped pistol:

ATF says just remove the brace.  However, since ATF will have retroactively classified it as a Short Barrel RIFLE, if one looks at the instructions for doing a Form 1, it says a Form 1 must be done to convert a RIFLE into a pistol.  It does not differentiate between types of rifles.  Again, ATF is saying to break the law.  Now it may be different if you were the one who added a brace VS a pistol that came from the factory with a brace.   Note: This could be a timing issue...remove brace before the date that braced pistols are retroactively ruled SBR's.  


That's a whole 'nother ball of confusing fuckery there.

WholeBunches of fuckery.

Link Posted: 6/27/2021 5:31:16 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:

That's a whole 'nother ball of confusing fuckery there.
View Quote

^^^Greetings, fellow Retro Forum regular!^^^
If you’re building a retro SBR, I hope that you’ll make a thread about it over on the Retro Forum. Good luck with your build, and your excursion into NFA-land.
Link Posted: 6/27/2021 7:09:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2021 7:16:40 AM EDT by Mfinaustin]
Anyone who read the link below should note that it has been updated and you are required to engrave.

Truth about Guns    Do I need to engrave
Link Posted: 6/27/2021 8:23:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2021 8:34:18 AM EDT by Tigwelder1971]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mfinaustin:
Anyone who read the link below should note that it has been updated and you are required to engrave.

Truth about Guns    Do I need to engrave
View Quote


Thanks man. Much appreciated.

ETA: In revisiting the link in my OP, I see now that TTAG has the update linked at the bottom of article. (I should have caught that).

Thanks again to everyone here.
Link Posted: 6/27/2021 8:30:04 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stahlgewehr762:

^^^Greetings, fellow Retro Forum regular!^^^
If you’re building a retro SBR, I hope that you’ll make a thread about it over on the Retro Forum. Good luck with your build, and your excursion into NFA-land.
View Quote

Thank you. Unfortunately, not a retro build here. For now I'll stay content with admiring the works of art assembled by others.
Link Posted: 6/30/2021 3:05:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Johnny_Longslide:

This is correct.

Individual: Name, City, State
Trust: Trust name, City, State

Don't get easier than that.

And I will always recommend THSF for any and all engraving needs as they are awesome.



View Quote



Don't forget caliber. If lower is marked multi it has to have caliber as made
Link Posted: 6/30/2021 3:07:51 PM EDT
Sorry I see it was already answered, didn't read all comments first
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