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Posted: 5/2/2021 1:02:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Watching, I have the same question. The MH25 seems to get a lot more interest than the 19.
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Posted: 5/2/2021 1:15:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watching, I have the same question. The MH25 seems to get a lot more interest than the 19. Agreed. The ML19, in my opinion, matches up more closely spec-wise with the Breach. I may end up just getting the MH25 - I know it’s awesome, but would really like to get some opinions on the ML19 first. Thanks! |
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Posted: 5/2/2021 2:57:49 PM EDT
[#3]
I've sold a number of breaches and not had a single complaint nor concern from customers.
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Posted: 5/6/2021 8:21:16 AM EDT
[#4]
Does anyone have experience with the ML19?
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Posted: 5/8/2021 10:24:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Bump? Does anyone have or have time behind an iRay ML19? Thank you!
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:12:40 AM EDT
[#6]
I'd like to see or hear more experiences with the Breach. I am patiently waiting for NG to get them in.
My plans are to get a Breach and Nox 35 (if they ever get caught up on production). I can't find a whole lot of bad reviews about the Breach online, but it seems like all of the YT videos are blobby video. I understand most of the videos, like the Super Hogster don't do the actual imaging justice due to compression, but it would be nice to see some honest reviews. My biggest concern with HMT is eye strain. I intend to sit on a pipeline right of way, and hunting club roads for hours on end, using the HMT to survey for hogs/coyotes. Is eye strain a big issue? Even my PVS-14 starts to wear on me after awhile and I wind up changing eyes some nights. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 7:45:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I watched a video comparison of the FLIR Breach and iRay ML19 and the resolution appears to be better on the ML19. The Breach has a 12 micron unit sensor (17 on the iRay) and a better refresh rate (60Hz vs 50Hz), so I'm wondering if anyone has any personal, hands-on experience? There's no comparison I can find other than a table that shows the specs of each side by side and that video on YouTube. Any help, thoughts, advice based on actually using both would be greatly appreciated!  Falconclaw thermal comparison - FLIR Breach vs Infiray ML-19 vs Infiray E6 PRO v2.0 |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 7:54:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmm, I was about to order a Breach until seeing the video. Is it an accurate and legit comparison? If so, then I'll probably hold off.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egDjvSY7bvcQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I watched a video comparison of the FLIR Breach and iRay ML19 and the resolution appears to be better on the ML19. The Breach has a 12 micron unit sensor (17 on the iRay) and a better refresh rate (60Hz vs 50Hz), so I'm wondering if anyone has any personal, hands-on experience? There's no comparison I can find other than a table that shows the specs of each side by side and that video on YouTube. Any help, thoughts, advice based on actually using both would be greatly appreciated! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egDjvSY7bvcYou and me both! I was literally about to pull the trigger on a Breach and saw that video too …. The ML19 looked considerably better. And the MH25 is light years better than the ML19 …. I might be waiting and saving up more for an MH25 now. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:23:02 PM EDT
[#9]
I like the Breach as it has the Outdoor Alert feature as well as power input flexibility. You can use rechargeable batteries as well as an exterior power pack/bank. I haven't noticed all these options on other models.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:47:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like the Breach as it has the Outdoor Alert feature as well as power input flexibility. You can use rechargeable batteries as well as an exterior power pack/bank. I haven't noticed all these options on other models. Both ML19 and MH25 have a red-hot colour palette, external power options and can run off rechargeables... Literally the only things the Breach has over the IRays is onboard recording. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 12:31:51 AM EDT
[#11]
The Breach's showing may not have been the best in that video. It's outdoor alert mode was
 which tells me the settings could have been adjusted better IMHO.
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Posted: 5/10/2021 1:36:04 AM EDT
[#12]
The breach is, in my opinion, a much more robust design than the iray. I have no experience with the iray 320 core version and I am not sure what the price difference is but you should be able to pick up a breach for sub $1800 used.
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Posted: 5/10/2021 9:58:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Both ML19 and MH25 have a red-hot colour palette, external power options and can run off rechargeables... Literally the only things the Breach has over the IRays is onboard recording. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I like the Breach as it has the Outdoor Alert feature as well as power input flexibility. You can use rechargeable batteries as well as an exterior power pack/bank. I haven't noticed all these options on other models. Both ML19 and MH25 have a red-hot colour palette, external power options and can run off rechargeables... Literally the only things the Breach has over the IRays is onboard recording. Pretty much entirely true. I'd probably add that you need to buy aftermarket accessories to use rechargeable with the Breach but maybe that's changed & Flir now includes a battery compartment extender. Regarding the video comparison: Unfortunately that video isn't a good, accurate representation of the capability of Breach image quality. It doesn't keep up with the infiray image on any of those units they compared it to anyway so I'm not sure why the user had it so far out of balance if it wasn't simply out of pure ignorance. It never fails that someone on the internet want to revert to fall back on the "ruggedness" argument. That argument has been proven unfounded in the last year. With that said, the same posters who argue "durability" seem to gloss over, or are ignorant of what you're seeing in that video. You can get the Breach so far out of adjustment that it's basically useless. I've seen it happed in the field with people trying to improve the image. I've seen it happen after the unit needed a factory reset. I have heard of it happening after firmware updates/reloading the firmware after corruption. Sometimes I wish there was more user adjustment available on the Iray, then after some sleep I always seem to realize that would come with some pretty sizable negatives. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 12:19:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty much entirely true. I'd probably add that you need to buy aftermarket accessories to use rechargeable with the Breach but maybe that's changed & Flir now includes a battery compartment extender. Regarding the video comparison: Unfortunately that video isn't a good, accurate representation of the capability of Breach image quality. It doesn't keep up with the infiray image on any of those units they compared it to anyway so I'm not sure why the user had it so far out of balance if it wasn't simply out of pure ignorance. It never fails that someone on the internet want to revert to fall back on the "ruggedness" argument. That argument has been proven unfounded in the last year. With that said, the same posters who argue "durability" seem to gloss over, or are ignorant of what you're seeing in that video. You can get the Breach so far out of adjustment that it's basically useless. I've seen it happed in the field with people trying to improve the image. I've seen it happen after the unit needed a factory reset. I have heard of it happening after firmware updates/reloading the firmware after corruption. Sometimes I wish there was more user adjustment available on the Iray, then after some sleep I always seem to realize that would come with some pretty sizable negatives. This in a big way. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 12:52:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This in a big way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pretty much entirely true. I'd probably add that you need to buy aftermarket accessories to use rechargeable with the Breach but maybe that's changed & Flir now includes a battery compartment extender. Regarding the video comparison: Unfortunately that video isn't a good, accurate representation of the capability of Breach image quality. It doesn't keep up with the infiray image on any of those units they compared it to anyway so I'm not sure why the user had it so far out of balance if it wasn't simply out of pure ignorance. It never fails that someone on the internet want to revert to fall back on the "ruggedness" argument. That argument has been proven unfounded in the last year. With that said, the same posters who argue "durability" seem to gloss over, or are ignorant of what you're seeing in that video. You can get the Breach so far out of adjustment that it's basically useless. I've seen it happed in the field with people trying to improve the image. I've seen it happen after the unit needed a factory reset. I have heard of it happening after firmware updates/reloading the firmware after corruption. Sometimes I wish there was more user adjustment available on the Iray, then after some sleep I always seem to realize that would come with some pretty sizable negatives. This in a big way. So you guys would recommend the iRay over the Flir Breach if looking for the best resolution/contrast? I have the cash for the Breach or the iRay ML19 right now. I’m just looking for some expert opinions on which way to go … Thank you!! |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 1:34:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Fuck Flir. They've shown their colors.
The MH25 is an absolute animal. I love it. Haven't put my mits on the ML19, but if it's the same unit with a cheaper core, and that's what your budget allows, I say FO. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 2:39:54 PM EDT
[#17]
funny to see how Chinese Thermal products are crushing US made ones with their prices and performance
 Anyone wanna SkeetIR X for 15k ? lol |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 3:13:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you guys would recommend the iRay over the Flir Breach if looking for the best resolution/contrast? I have the cash for the Breach or the iRay ML19 right now. I’m just looking for some expert opinions on which way to go … Thank you!! I recommend you do it. Then give me a good review, so I can make a decision. 
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Posted: 5/10/2021 4:21:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: funny to see how Chinese Thermal products are crushing US made ones with their prices and performance Anyone wanna SkeetIR X for 15k ? lol Not judging those who do, but I'd probably sooner do without than buy a Chinese thermal. It's impossible to go through life today without buying Chinese products, but I sure try my best to do so. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 4:28:49 PM EDT
[#20]
I may be looking for a lightly-used Breach … and flip it if I don’t like it. Seems like the price point combined with the Brand recognition is something that could be resold fairly easy. Thanks guys!!
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Posted: 5/10/2021 6:30:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you guys would recommend the iRay over the Flir Breach if looking for the best resolution/contrast? I have the cash for the Breach or the iRay ML19 right now. I’m just looking for some expert opinions on which way to go … Thank you!! We don't carry iRay. There doesn't seem to be many paying end users with them so if you're not in a hurry you could wait for some hands on feedback from someone who has/had both. I bet the reason why is that most guys just spring for the MH25 instead. The Breach is great for what it is - a lower cost monocular that's tiny, lightweight, and helmet mountable. Folks just need to be realistic as to what to expect from the 320x256 Boson and 9mm lens. I own a Breach and use it a lot. My property is heavily treed and I use mine primarily 50 yards and less. 75 yards max. I bought it for this reason and it performs excellent within that range. It also works decent at longer distances. I've identified deer & elk to about 100-200 yards before in more open areas. Although some don't like the outdoor alert mode, some absolutely do (myself included), and IMHO it's better than the iRay's based on what I've seen in videos (of course with the right settings - the comparison video was awful). FLIR's outdoor alert mode is one of my favorite things about it. YMMV |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 6:53:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We don't carry iRay. There doesn't seem to be many paying end users with them so if you're not in a hurry you could wait for some hands on feedback from someone who has/had both. I bet the reason why is that most guys just spring for the MH25 instead. The Breach is great for what it is - a lower cost monocular that's tiny, lightweight, and helmet mountable. Folks just need to be realistic as to what to expect from the 320x256 Boson and 9mm lens. I own a Breach and use it a lot. My property is heavily treed and I use mine primarily 50 yards and less. 75 yards max. I bought it for this reason and it performs excellent within that range. It also works decent at longer distances. I've identified deer & elk to about 100-200 yards before in more open areas. Although some don't like the outdoor alert mode, some absolutely do (myself included), and IMHO it's better than the iRay's based on what I've seen in videos (of course with the right settings - the comparison video was awful). FLIR's outdoor alert mode is one of my favorite things about it. YMMV Gotta agree 100%! I might also add in regard to using rechargeable batteries, nothing special is required to use them. no special hardware other than a charger for the batteries! The manufacturer even says you can in the user manual! The resolution is fine for most users unless you are a purist! |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 7:59:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet the reason why is that most guys just spring for the MH25 instead. Bingo - in my case anyway. $1400 more wasn't a big jump *for me*. The FLIR rez is lower spec than my AGM Micro, but that 384x288 AGM looked good. All I know about FLIR, is that they supposedly said "f*ck civilians" - so I say F them Get the ML19 with better rez, and probably a better algorithm , if you can afford it - some people always discount cost - some people bust there ass for very little - price matters. Yeah, the MH/ML only has 4 palettes, with "Predator Vision" being useless (to me). Luckily I'm a simple Black Hot Day, White Hot Night, kind of guy. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 8:21:35 PM EDT
[#24]
For the record, the only civilian things FLIR discontinued were the PTS series thermal scopes. But they still provide warranty support for them. The Breach units are still made and fully supported,
I didn't agree with the decision on the PTS series as I own a couple. I think they are great scopes with all the same features the Breach has, including rechargeable battery use. It does give some comfort that they still support them though |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 9:02:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Is the Flir core made in the U.S.? I hope to someday be able to kill a Chinese Commie with a U.S. made core but I guess killing one with a commie made iRay core would be sweet sweet irony.
 After all of the Americans they have killed and crippled with Covid, they got it coming to them. I see a NOX in my future, but looks like the Breach will get here first |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 9:23:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bingo - in my case anyway. $1400 more wasn't a big jump *for me*. The FLIR rez is lower spec than my AGM Micro, but that 384x288 AGM looked good. All I know about FLIR, is that they supposedly said "f*ck civilians" - so I say F them Get the ML19 with better rez, and probably a better algorithm , if you can afford it - some people always discount cost - some people bust there ass for very little - price matters. Yeah, the MH/ML only has 4 palettes, with "Predator Vision" being useless (to me). Luckily I'm a simple Black Hot Day, White Hot Night, kind of guy. It is unfortunate that they left the hunting scope market but AFIAK there is no smoking gun that it was an anti-civilian/hunting decision. My dealings with FLIR for customer support to help civilian FLIR product owners (some of them didn't even buy from TNVC and FLIR owed me nothing) have all been exceptional with them taking care of them no questions asked. All of this stuff is cost/performance relative and specific to the individual. The cost difference between the ML19 & Breach is money towards a Wilcox/KVC bridge for HMT, a better thermal scope, nods, etc. It checks all of the lower cost monocular HMT compatible boxes. The next logical step up from the Breach is the MH25 or a NOX18 IMHO. @BMCBreeder I believe the best answer is FLIR products are primarily manufactured in the USA from globally sourced materials, which to some people doesn't mean any difference but that's BS in my opinion. Is buying a Ford F350 using some components made in China the same thing as buying a Chinese truck?  ETA: And before anybody says “but what about Toyota?” Guess what? They’re f’n Japanese. Whole different situation...... |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 11:01:53 PM EDT
[#27]
The MH19 has been offered in the US less than 5 months. It has a small distributor & dealer footprint that isn't in the "IN" clique here. I venture that is more why there is minimal user base than there not being a market for a device in that performance category. I'd go so far to say that one of the reasons second hand Breach units are moving in the $1500-1700 window is because the MH19 bombs it performance wise. With the MH19 you're getting an image relatively compatible to that of the ARFcom NGI beloved hogster. You can actually not only detect with it at greater range than the breach, but recognize and identify animals by defined signature instead of trying to relying on behavior and estimated size when they're essentially a blob with the 320 unit. But it's chinese & you'll get cooties from it, and the internet will not give you as many coolguy point. [roll eyes] All that said, no one has brought up one of the best reason for one to choose a breach. If you're blind it's honestly the best option. For those outside of the adjustment range of the -14 eyepiece to still use a HMT without having to use corrective lenses that is. There isn't another unit I'm aware of with the range of focus the breach diopter has. A cleaner image from a better core isn't worth anything if you can't focus the diopter so you can see those crisp images. +5 to -5 is pretty solid. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 11:08:24 PM EDT
[#28]
To be honest I have beef with FLir over not offering support on a new retail purchased $9k camera they discontinued.
That doesn't mean anything comparing device to device above but it is brought up as a point of fact that they didn't only chop customer support for their customers for items with a reticle. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 11:10:05 PM EDT
[#29]
The Breach diopter is a great point ??
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Posted: 5/10/2021 11:23:33 PM EDT
[#30]
I love my FLIR Breach and TNVC thermal battery pack. I'm just waiting for a KVC Bridge to helmet mount it next to a PVS-14. Like Will mentioned above, it's perfect for the role I need it for-100 yards or so. It easily identifies heat sources much farther than that, but is perfect for closer in. I prefer to stay away from Chinesium as much as possible. I have dealt with FLIR customer support through work and they were fine. They actually helped me pick the right unit for an agency purchase. I can't comment on their dropping product lines, other than those decisions are usually profit-based and not political statements. I haven't adjusted the Breach settings much-I'm just having fun exploring the pallets and it's capabilities in different environments. I think it's a steal for the price-but you might want a different capability.
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Posted: 6/12/2021 6:26:49 PM EDT
[#31]
I ended up ordering a new FLIR Breach from TNVC last week.
I’ll get it this week and can’t wait to see how it looks! Thanks to ALL for your feedback! |
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Posted: 6/12/2021 10:30:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Poor video - comparing apples oranges and pears.
The key point is the Breach has 9mm focal length which means it has a wide field of view - essential in urban and paraurban areas. If you increase the focal length you increase the range but sacrifice field of view e.g. ML19 has 19mm focal length. |
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Posted: 6/12/2021 11:14:36 PM EDT
[#33]
Once I got my Breach dialed in I fell in love with it as a head mounted scanner. It is good paired up with the Super Hogster!
Edit: There are three deer in that woods photo that are about 275 yards away. The red stuff in the front is stumps. It's right after nightfall, so many items in that clear cut were still warm. A Mod Armory battery extender is a good addition unless you want to run the battery pack.   |
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Posted: 6/13/2021 12:00:56 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Poor video - comparing apples oranges and pears. The key point is the Breach has 9mm focal length which means it has a wide field of view - essential in urban and paraurban areas. If you increase the focal length you increase the range but sacrifice field of view e.g. ML19 has 19mm focal length. My neck is busted to Hades and my head still swings side to side no matter if I'm sporting dual tubes, -14, or HMT. I'd agree that those stats are significant factors if you're looking to employing them in something such as a WMT or remote operating them from turret/ pan tilt/gimbal, but the wider FOV is almost purely academic in this case. |
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Posted: 6/13/2021 5:20:51 AM EDT
[#35]
I'd say it in a slightly different way, the Breach works very well as HMT/spotter because it has a broad and high FOV and something like the NOX18/SkeetIR/ReapIR19 pair very well as WMT because you can see the width of a street and several stories in close proximity. Very well suited to urban and paraurban environments.
All three have near identical fields of view and really target the sub 270m environment - the difference being the focal length of the NOX/Skeet18/ReapIR19 are off-set by the increased detector resolution and hence FOV remains more or less constant. Case use is an important consideration. Hogs different kettle of fish. Also something very wrong with that video - the Breach video seems to be very washed out  and  The ML19 has base magnification same as many other handheld/helmet units e.g. ~1 - the super hogster has a base magnification of 2.9 = big difference. FOV and base magnification are real drivers in decision making (with FOV controlled by focal length, pixel pitch and detector resolution). Basically thermals are more or less split into two groups (1) combat effective ranges optimised for upto 300m and (2) hunting - generally those with much higher base magnification. There is a third category that punch right out there with base mags of 4.5 plus - these really are very specific case use driven. There are two iray products worth a look - the MH25 and the RH50 (both have 640x512 core res). Not knocking the ML29 but equally I'm happy with the Breach - it works and its effective (see example photos above which are very representative). |
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Posted: 6/13/2021 7:32:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once I got my Breach dialed in I fell in love with it as a head mounted scanner. It is good paired up with the Super Hogster! A Mod Armory battery extender is a good addition unless you want to run the battery pack. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/411851/rav4-1973644.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/411851/IMG031-1965363.jpg I'm picking up a recurring theme with the older designs that it's critical to dial them in. My coti did and still needs more work imo. It's been long enough that I don't remember what's what and I'm not looking forward to it. I've read several people mention they were not happy with the breach until they'd put some work in on the adjustments. I have a feeling there's a lot of people running around out there with poorly adjusted devices. The breach/superhogster combo was the runner up to the nox when I was looking. If I hunted or lived in more open terrain it's what I would have gotten. Seems like a you gain a lot of capability for the $. |
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Posted: 6/13/2021 10:35:36 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm picking up a recurring theme with the older designs that it's critical to dial them in. My coti did and still needs more work imo. It's been long enough that I don't remember what's what and I'm not looking forward to it. I've read several people mention they were not happy with the breach until they'd put some work in on the adjustments. I have a feeling there's a lot of people running around out there with poorly adjusted devices. The breach/superhogster combo was the runner up to the nox when I was looking. If I hunted or lived in more open terrain it's what I would have gotten. Seems like a you gain a lot of capability for the $. I’ve thought the same thing myself. The manuals that come with Breach don’t give very good setup figures IMHO at least not for the area I use it in, specifically the gain values. Pushing the gain settings up to the 300 area then adjusting the others around that makes mine work for me best. |
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