Don’t be this fool.

Posted: 3/15/2021 5:13:32 PM EDT

Just saw this on my local news here in Jacksonville. He is f.... ed.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdfl/pr/orange-park-man-charged-after-mailing-multiple-machinegun-conversion-devices

Posted: 3/15/2021 5:16:19 PM EDT

[#1]

Saw that a couple of days ago. I don’t know if he’s intelligent enough to realize how screwed he is..IF the article is true.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/article/news/crime/orange-park-man-had-over-a-thousand-devices-that-turn-ar-15s-into-machine-guns-feds-say/77-1d35a45f-3e88-409d-b275-3b83509ccf4e

Posted: 3/15/2021 5:18:41 PM EDT

[#2]

An interesting point was raised in another thread on this subject.

If an object/device/accessory is required to "convert" and AR-15 to a machine gun, then by implication the AR-15 is NOT a machine gun.

Hard to refute, that one is.

".......... and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm.

Ergo, it was not a machine gun before the "conversion".

Posted: 3/15/2021 5:34:13 PM EDT

[#3]

The article is true. He is local and was a headline for the local news.

Posted: 3/15/2021 5:36:44 PM EDT

[#4]

OP’s article contained more information than the original story I saw. Unless I’m mistaken he was etching metal cards with the design of a lightening link and it was up to the the end user to fabricate it.

Posted: 3/15/2021 5:58:44 PM EDT

[#5]

So an etched metal card is somehow a Lightning Link?
Sound like some agency is waaaaay overreaching.

Posted: 3/15/2021 6:49:48 PM EDT

[#6]

Yeah, this is not the slam dunk they want you to think it is:

The agents paid for the metal cards etched with a design for an auto-sear using postal money orders, which Ervin then deposited into his account at a local credit union. An ATF expert analyzed one of the devices that had been purchased undercover and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm

So it was just a drawing until the undercover agent "cut the etching out". Sounds to me like the undercover agent made a machine gun.

Posted: 3/15/2021 6:54:07 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yeah, this is not the slam dunk they want you to think it is:

The agents paid for the metal cards etched with a design for an auto-sear using postal money orders, which Ervin then deposited into his account at a local credit union. An ATF expert analyzed one of the devices that had been purchased undercover and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm

So they it was just a drawing until the undercover agent "cut the etching out". Sounds to me like the undercover agent made a machine gun.

View Quote

And you would be correct.

And by that logic, blueprints, drawings, etc... of machine guns or machine gun parts are by default.... machine guns. A good attorney is needed for him.

Posted: 3/15/2021 7:14:33 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yeah, this is not the slam dunk they want you to think it is:

The agents paid for the metal cards etched with a design for an auto-sear using postal money orders, which Ervin then deposited into his account at a local credit union. An ATF expert analyzed one of the devices that had been purchased undercover and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm

So it was just a drawing until the undercover agent "cut the etching out". Sounds to me like the undercover agent made a machine gun.

View Quote

I agree we you. I sent this to my neighbor who is a lawyer for his take on it. He said all a lawyer has to do is prove intent. You can hide behind it is only a metal etching for so long. It only matters what a jury thinks your customers intend to do with it once they get it. That makes you the big bad illegal full auto parts guy

.

Posted: 3/15/2021 7:15:19 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
An interesting point was raised in another thread on this subject.

If an object/device/accessory is required to "convert" and AR-15 to a machine gun, then by implication the AR-15 is NOT a machine gun.

Hard to refute, that one is.

".......... and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm.

Ergo, it was not a machine gun before the "conversion".

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
An interesting point was raised in another thread on this subject.

If an object/device/accessory is required to "convert" and AR-15 to a machine gun, then by implication the AR-15 is NOT a machine gun.

Hard to refute, that one is.

".......... and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm.

Ergo, it was not a machine gun before the "conversion".

I've seen a few people restating this in different topics related to the arrest...
What's the big deal?

There are AR-15 style firearms that are MGs, and AR-15 style firearms that aren't MGs, and it's been that way since the beginning.
Am I missing something significant here? If it's just the point that "journalists" often don't know what they're referring to, that's nothing new either. lol

The original AR-15 was a MG and it was designed/intended to be a weapon used in war, so I don't argue those points with people who want to ban them; I just tell them I disagree and they shouldn't be banned.

The 2A is about common people having military weapons, despite what some want to believe.

Quoted:
Yeah, this is not the slam dunk they want you to think it is:

The agents paid for the metal cards etched with a design for an auto-sear using postal money orders, which Ervin then deposited into his account at a local credit union. An ATF expert analyzed one of the devices that had been purchased undercover and was able to convert an AR-15 style firearm into a machinegun by cutting out the etching for an auto-sear using a commonly available tool and then inserting the auto-sear into the firearm

So it was just a drawing until the undercover agent "cut the etching out". Sounds to me like the undercover agent made a machine gun.

I agree.

"An ATF expert" (probably employed by FATD) made the MG. That's more significant because he's an expert at firearms modification.

Quoted:
And by that logic, blueprints, drawings, etc... of machine guns or machine gun parts are by default.... machine guns.

Nobody is saying that, so we shouldn't either.

Even ITAR doesn't apply to that info if it's in the public domain already.

A good attorney is needed for him.

Absolutely.
I hope he's got a great one.

Posted: 3/15/2021 7:19:28 PM EDT

[#10]

If the guy was busted for etching designs on a metal card and they are charging him with making a “machine gun”. That’s a Grand Canyon stretch IMO. I assume they can also charge all the “solvent trap” dealers with a crime as well.

Posted: 3/15/2021 8:04:08 PM EDT

[#11]

My personal opinion is that the term "AR-15 Style" is total bullshit, and an AR-15 (as manufactured for the civilian market) is most emphatically not a machine gun.

AR-15 Style" is a term invented by legislators who wanted to pass restrictive legislation and so-called journalists who are either confused or wanted to confused the low-information public.

(just my opinion)

Posted: 3/16/2021 1:46:26 AM EDT

[#12]

FFS, what's next? Are we all going to have to get lobotomies because we've seen a bent up coat hangar?

Posted: 3/16/2021 11:32:55 AM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
FFS, what's next? Are we all going to have to get lobotomies because we've seen a bent up coat hangar?

View Quote

Obviously "constructive intent".

Posted: 3/17/2021 1:49:56 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

So an etched metal card is somehow a Lightning Link?
Sound like some agency is waaaaay overreaching.

View Quote

But they also have a prosecutor and an unlimited budget to go to court. Not to mention the prosecutor and the judge are paid by the same people. He is going to jail or be broke to prove himself right. Odds are he ends up a felon

Posted: 3/17/2021 2:00:36 PM EDT

[#15]

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-ARFCOM-NEWS-Did-ATF-Seriously-Just-Arrest-A-Man-For-A-Picture-Of-Machine-Gun-Parts-/5-2434228/

Posted: 3/17/2021 9:08:23 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
Obviously "constructive intent".

View Quote

Constructive intent is not as simple as most people say it is.

Posted: 3/17/2021 9:20:03 PM EDT

[#17]

Constructive intent is insanely complicated because it only exists on the internet.

Posted: 3/17/2021 11:43:28 PM EDT

[#18]

He’s screwed... “Orange Park Man Bad”

Posted: 3/18/2021 12:11:50 AM EDT

[#19]

I've got a business card that is also a Force Sensitive Resistor. Should I be worried that the ATF is going to shoot my dog because I have an "explosive triggering device"?

Posted: 3/18/2021 12:24:22 AM EDT

[#20]

I don't see how an etched metal card can be a machinegun, but a solvent trap kit that comes complete with threaded tubes, spacers and bore-less baffles isn't a silencer.

I'll bet it's easier to turn an 80% silencer kit... err... I mean solvent trap into a silencer than it is to make a lightning link from a plain metal plate with the design sketched onto it. All you need is a drill bit and drill to manufacture a silencer from a solvent trap kit.

Posted: 3/22/2021 12:46:39 PM EDT

[#21]

I’m sure what the 2 main things that the BATFE wanted was to stop this guy from selling the cards and get all the info on his customers. God help those fools who actually bought one and cut the cards.