If I didn't live so far away from you all...I would come and visit you guys. I love seeing how things come alive and where things can improve (my mind is always on improvement...sometimes utilizing 5S can go a long ways).

I wouldn't say we are angry...I think we are passionately disappointed more than anything. Me personally, I originally sold my beloved Tavor to fund the MDR...after the delays...I spent those dollars elsewhere.

I'm honestly not sure what the "fix" is - or even if there *IS* one.  An incalculable amount of damage has been done to your brand by the handling of this situation.  I think you need to reach out to any owners who registered their warranty/ownership with you, put big ads in the gun magazines, post up all over the internet, etc and basically say "We fucked up the release, but the problems are fixed now - if your rifle isn't 100% contact us immediately for a pre-paid return shipping label and we will fix it or send you a brand new rifle which runs perfectly." Then do it.  Anything less is probably doomed to failure, because you're already running into this kind of thing:

...and for every one of us willing to post and own that sentiment, you *KNOW* there are 10-20 more who aren't...  As I tell my kids, "It's way easier to be careful handling a glass than it is to fix that glass once it falls on the floor and shatters!"  You've already shattered the glass, so here's where "turn your customer service up to 11" better come in if you want to save the brand, let alone the MDR.

Rsolomun,
Your points have merit and we are doing everything we can to fix any outstanding issues on MDR rifles as I have mentioned numerous times.  I understand your argument that not everyone speaks up that is upset but there is a flip side to that argument too.  One negative person will overshadow 11 positive people and I also have found that the majority of the haters that are hacking on the MDR online do not even have an MDR they are still pissed that we failed at delivering on time.  Hence the 95% of customers who have had no warranty issues are not talking about their MDR's because the haters attack them like a bunch of ravenous wolves.  There is so much speculation and misinformation that it's disgusting.  Am I saying we didn't have some teething pains with initial batches (and warrantying those initial issues)?  No, we did, but we overcame those things and revamped our warranty department in total with substantial engineering guidance and direction.

That's fair, however you've NOT got 11 positive or even 1-2 positive people, so it's not like they're being drowned out, they're simply not coming forward at all.

What you're missing is that you can't discount people that "do not even have an MDR" because in marketing terms they're part of your TAM - Total Available Market, and like the posting of mine that I quoted, they're walking away from your BRAND not just the MDR.  This is like my son who insists "I wasn't TRYING to break the glass!" - it just doesn't matter, the glass is broken.

I have to disagree - bash Kel-Tec here or anywhere else and watch the woodwork explode with haters *AND* defenders.  You've got one irrational defender here and last I heard he hadn't actually shot either of his MDRs... You've got 3-4 customers in this thread alone with problems - some more vocal than others, but nobody is beating them up.  Where are the happy satisfied customers? Yeah, it's easy to smugly say "Out shooting their MDRs!" but in the gun industry they'd be out bragging to their friends about their cool new rifles. Look at all the "unboxing" videos on YouTube, all the water cooler conversations at shooting ranges, etc.  They're just not happening for the MDR - it's not like 95 guys are standing up and saying "Mine runs great!" and then getting dragged down by a pack of mindless internet trolls.

Having been in this thread since the beginning, I can say the only one who gets attacked is one guy who irrationally defends everything y'all do.  If he had 94 other compatriots the conversation might be different, and frankly if he were more rational in his defenses the conversation would be different.  Maybe a couple of the "no MIM ever!" crowd are a bit irrational, BUT they're coming from a position of "strength" because of the QC failures.  Look back at the 3rd Gen S&W and see the same anti-MIM hate but with no factual backing it's just background noise.  (Objective observers will even note S&W's MIM parts were way better finished than the machined parts they replaced because S&W's machining had declined so much by then.)

Frankly, you still seem to be in denial - I don't believe you've got a vocal minority drowning out your satisfied majority.  I think you've got a vocal minority speaking for your generally dissatisfied majority.  Everything you've said about the "back end" improvements at least sounds like the right answer to THAT part of the problem.  Don't get me wrong, you HAVE to fix the engineering/manufacturing/quality control side and fix it first.  If you really have done that, then it's now time to go try and rebuild your reputation.  If you sit there thinking "this too shall pass" then I expect to be reading about your bankruptcy within 12-24 months.  Your products are too cool to let that happen, so "man up" and go take your lumps and be very visible about taking them and fixing the problems.  Not one more "but we tried!" or "we eventually got it" or "I wasn't TRYING to break the glass!".  Go out there and say "We screwed up, we've fixed it. If your rifle isn't 100%, we'll pay to ship it to us and we'll fix it or give you a brand new rifle!" See Remington and the R51 for a lesson in about as well as one can hope to pick up the pieces after dropping the glass and stomping on it...

We will have to agree to disagree my friend, I feel both of our arguments have validity in them and it's not one or the other.

I'm just glad you've made an appearance directly to your market to address concerns.
Now we'll see where the product, service and company go from here.

BTW, one of the things that led me to shelve my PDR project was the MDR-C concept...

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-I-m-Building-a-PDR-ETA-CHIPS-ARE-FLYING-pg8/4-500425/?page=1

Oh jeez, this will go well. rsolomon has a lot of valid points. I was one of the biggest fans of the MDR until this whole thing went sour. I have the funds for one, but at this point I’d be very surprised if I ever buy one. I’ll likely go for a Tavor 7 at this point, even though ‘the MDR is better than the Tavor’ lol

ETA: *misinformation, *route

Fair enough, you're the one who's betting his paycheck on being right.  FWIW, I wish y'all the very best - I love bullpups and the more/better the merrier!

Guys,
I did not dispute Rsolomuns points, I just pointed out additional facts that are also present.  I understand that there have been some legitimate problems to but not everything you read and hear is truth is all I was trying to say.  I'm not calling people who have used the MDR liars either but we have discovered a few plants from other gun companies to working sabotage the MDR online, and I am not being paranoid, I have evidence supporting it and we know who they are already so don't jump to conclusions on me.  Just know that in the end we stand behind the MDR and will do so and push it to be what it is promised to be.  I appreciate everyones feedback and take it all to heart, I am a very direct person and sometimes I offend people because of that.  I apologize if I have come across that way, we definitely listen and value everyones feedback and we know what we need to do moving forward and I am excited to prove it to everyone.  I will visit this thread occasionally but if anyone needs to reach me or our customer service/warranty dept don't hesitate to call our office.

One last word, I do appreciate the criticisms we have received but most of you want the MDR to be what we said it is and smashing the product constantly hinders things a lot.  We reached very high and far and we did something that most companies won't ever attempt to do because they won't take the risk.  Instead, they want to continue to regurgitate the same stuff in every iteration possible.  That is not DT so those that want to support us we truly appreciate it!  We may have failed in delivering MDR's on time and we had some toothing pains to overcome in production but the MDR is every-bit what we say it is.  Bye for now.

Sincerely

Nicholas Young

I have no doubt if you continue to listen to all sides, keep continuously improving the platform and keep investing into lean six sigma...you will find success.

If there are companies trying to sabotage the MDR's success...shame on them...but unfortunately...everyone does it and not just in the firearms industry. Businesses do it to each other just like countries do.

How's so? Appears the MDR (at least in 556) is still in development.

Lots of lol-e-pops in this post, to mention a few:

Blaming barrel manufacturer for half your problems, I though years ago at SHOT you were claiming that MDR would be 100% produced in house.

Spent millions of dollars on MIM testing.

Better than the Tavor, tell that to the 100K fighting soldiers all around the world that have fielded them in combat.

More accurate than XYZ, and I can provide (but won't) our (not independent third party) testing results.

The jamtastic forward eject makes our product light years ahead of the compitetion. Say hello to the working FN2000.

It's good to start the day with a deep hearty laugh, thanks for the giggles.

Well then it's not free to all MDR owners.

As far as I know they have been shot now, was classic to see the excitement when they were initially purchased, then a couple of months of "I'm too busy to shoot them" when actually they were at DT (both if I remember correctly) being "fixed". And now not much chatter as to how they are doing. More lulz from "The Days of Our MDR$".

The MDR did not live up to the hype and the expectation that the company put behind the product.  It is that simple.  Sadly, a lot of these items can be fixed by the company. And I am sure sooner or latter, most likely latter the company will fix these issues. In short this is not a combat ready rifle, its not even close to being combat ready. The issues that people face, including my self would never live up to any military life.

In fact, I sent my MDR back to Desert tech before I even got to fire a shot. Apparently I am one of the 5%, but sadly it started out with a 0 round count.   I sent the rifle in with 3 issues off the bat.  Not one problem. But three issues with the same rifle with no rounds fired.

After receiving the rifle back and heading to the range I found that Remington 308 and federal xm80 works pretty good in the rifle.  On the other hand  surplus STG 58 is a hit or miss,  mostly its a miss as it keeps getting stuck in the chamber.  I have been very vocal about this in the bullpup forums.  I made a post  showing all the different case over all length after firing and measuring them and showing the rims at which point they are just ripped apart. And if one was to look close at the photos you would see that with the longest COL fired, the end of the brass is curled up at the case mouth.

And these are just my issues, which is a small sample of all the others on the bullpup forums.  Some being more minor, others being more major over there.

For this being toted the next big thing as a military rifle of dependability, mobility and reliability. The addition of the 6position gas port is a good touch, and I am sure it helps. But for the life of me I cant understand why,  Why, WHY they did not go with a 7.62 NATO barrel. Of the problems that are coming up with the rifle, the two biggest improvements I see to reliability would be a 7.62 NATO chamber, and a bigger/wider extractor.  I made suggestions before about adding a secondary extractor at the bottom of the bolt head. Perhaps this was already tried before and failed with the ejector mechanism before  I do not know.

I completely agree with you one it needing more extractor surface area on the case rim. Be it a secondary lower extractor or a larger single one I don't care. I see it as a fundamental flaw in the design. The fact of the matter is that when running suppressed, unless you have it on the perfect gas setting you're probably going to end up with a stuck case. A failure that you can't correct quickly or at all really unless you have a dowel, cleaning rod, etc.

rsolomon, The Desert Tech Owners Group on facebook has several satisfied people... as well as some unsatisfied.  There is also a lot of information, suggestions, and discussions about accessories that are being worked on by third parties.  I suggest you check it out.

I received my notice yesterday from Jon who organized the Bullpup Forum group buy stating that my rifle was in.  He said they are starting to pour in now so this leads me to believe that we all should have our rifles shortly except for those who have fallen through the cracks.  Hopefully I get a good one that runs from the get go, if not I will send it back like I have several other firearms in the past and have it fixed.  I won't likely be doing any real shooting with it anytime soon as I am working full time and building a camp.  I still have not shot my new Sako TRG 42 or my Silencerco Hybrid suppressor that I waited nearly a year for to give you an idea.

I appreciate Nick coming on this site to discuss the rifle and hopefully when the dust settles the MDR will be a respected firearm.  It may take awhile but if DT has learned from their mistakes and push the MDR to be all it can be the rifle will succeed.

Wow, just wow. $2500 doesn't buy you a functional MDR, it's $2500 and hope.

Yep same here. I cancelled my MDR order and will wait for T7.

Very true, people with issues will be vocal. The ones without are often not. Since people are asking for those who have a mdr to respond d I though I would. I have a mdr and it’s been good. I had a few issues but with the 6 position that is gone. It’s a fun gun and almost as short as my ar pistol brace. I recently took it to flag and ran about 300 rounds through it in a day with no issues. It may have been more if we didn’t get rained out. O well. If you are down in the valley and want to try it let me know. I am 30min from Ben now and always good to go shooting

I am in the group by so I did not pay $2500, in fact it is a good chunk less..  Years ago I paid close to $2,000 for a new to the scene RFB, sent it back due to headspace issues.  I sent a $1400 Kimber pistol back twice years ago before they got it running correctly as well as a $1200 one which went back once.  I have a Tikka rifle with a tight chamber that didn't like a couple boxes of ammo, my $1,000 Boberg XR9-s had to be sent back for some fine tuning and I had a Benelli shotgun that had some issues.  Nothing in life is a guaranteed except that we will die, I believe DT will stand behind their product and make things right.  If not life will go on.

Nick, I still want an mdr in 556 but for fucks sake, does it have to be 8 pounds?!

@SR90

Thanks for showing up.

I too agree with the above poster- 8lbs for a 556 is quite a lot.

Got an idea- Maybe a 556 bullpup bolt action like your SRS that weighs 6 pounds and costs less than 2,000

Yep. Just like the .308 Colt that nobody uses for 5.56.

I mean, the Tavor SAR and X95 are both 7.9lbs.

AUG is 7.8-7.9lbs depending on rail.

Even the FS2000 - which is almost entirely plastic - is 7.6lbs.

Yea but the mdr is more modern and made in the USA. I expect it to be better

That would be cool, but if the worlds most advanced firearms companies are producing 7.6-7.9lb bullpups, I don't think it's realistic to expect a bullpup with more features + made by a small company to be any lighter.

To further put things in perspective, here's a list of all the major 5.56 combat rifles on the market. With the exception of the ARX 100 (which is almost all polymer + pencil barrel), every piston rifle is 7.13lbs+.

LE6920: 6.29LBS
M4A1 FN: 6.36LBS
m4a2 concept: 6.54lbs
KAK SR15 Mod 2: 6.55lbs
LWRC IC DI: 6.6lbs
ARX 100: 6.8LBS
Thales F90: 7.13lbs
SCAR 16S: 7.25lbs
LWRC IC-A5: 7.3lbs
ACR: 7.3lbs
Arsenal SLR-106: 7.3lbs
LMT CQB16: 7.45lbs
SG 551: 7.48
FS2000 Tactical: 7.6lbs
HK 433 16”: 7.7LBS
Aug A3 M1 High Rail: 7.8lbs
HK 416 a5 16” : 7.832lbs
Tavor X95 16: 7.9lbs
Tavor SAR 16: 7.9lbs
SIG MCX Virtus: 7.9lbs
HK G36; 7.99lbs
VHS-2: 8.25lbs

In general, I think weight on a bullpup matters a lot less due to the rearward balance - when firing standing, much of the weight is supported by the shoulder, making it much less fatiguing then a conventional rifle of comparable weight. That's why bullpups can even be fired one handed off the shoulder.

Weight distribution has more to do with how a weapon handles than actual weight for me.

My LMT MWS 13.5" fully loaded with TA11 and ammo is at 11.5lbs...but the weight is very even and its not that bad.

This.

A balanced 11lb gun can feel better than an unbalanced 8lb gun.

I haven't read all 48 pages and was interested in buying one these, I've only seen some videos on Youtube. Hold off or good to go?

Hold off.

Yeah I would hold off right now too...unless you get one at a great price...at least until the T7 comes out and seeing how it performs.

I do think that DT will get all the quirks fixed but I still have concerns on its longevity of its materials.

If you jump on it you’re a braver man than me. I’ve been holding off, and will probably just hold off for good at this point. Then again, I jumped on a P365 and love it, so maybe you shouldn’t listen to me.

I had an friend who had recently left DT employment back in 2016 tell me he would never buy one and he strongly recommended I not buy one, I'm glad I listened because I about the pre-order, so glad he was honest with me and look at how it is happening before my eyes.

Mine has been great! Good to go!

Well, if you do get a working one, you will absolutely have bragging rights at the range.

So that may be worth a certain amount of risk

Mine has been good as well, I am hoping to take it to two gun but they canceled last month due to changing the hosting range so hopefully soon.

My two have been fine save for one failure to eject during the first magazine.

I was under the impression from your post on the other site that both had been back to DT for warranty issues, is this not correct?

They went back before I shot them, once they returned and I took them to the range, other than the one failure to eject (and that could have been ammo related), they were fine.

Thanks for the clarification, I guess if they require to be sent back to the factory before you fire them that is considered fine. Great to hear, by the way who paid for shipping when they had to be returned to have the non-issues non-corrected?

DT covered it both ways.  The primary issues were feeding (when manually cycling) and the charging handle not releasing when it was locked back and subsequently pushed down on the *right* side.  Both issues were resolved.

Interesting/good to hear that DT paid for shipping both ways, others on the other forum have asked Nic in his Q & A WFI (wait for it) thread about having to pay for shipping on warranty issues.

They always sent me an RMA right away.

Granted, I pretty much boxed them in and asked when they were going to send me a return tag...and that took a couple e-mails.  All in all, while the end result was positive, there is an issue with follow-up and follow-through.  Whether this means that they have to hire more people or rearrange who does what, something needs to happen.  It is not good for business to allow e-mail and calls to go unanswered, especially when people are waiting on things.

Have you had the chance to go out with them again?

Our weather has been pretty uniformly sh!tty for the past few weeks; it's either unbearably hot and humid or it's pouring with random thunderstorms, so I'm hoping to get out sometime in September.  I have several new acquisitions that I want to break in as well as putting 100-200 rounds through each of the MDRs.

Let us know how it goes.

@CowboyWubWub Time for a September title update!

"It's September 2018 and MDR owners laboring to get their rifles!" perhaps?