Did they push the T7 back again?

IWI just last month released a press release that it will be shipping end of July.

Two moar months?  

Well whenever it is, it'll probably be a more reliable and a better out of the box firearm than some of the other recently released options out there. Also seems the Shooting Sight SAR/X95 trigger pack works with it so even if the trigger is craptastic there will be options already out there.

Have faith in IWI getting it right, but you can't bank on a companies previous releases either.

Sorry I worded that poorly. The T7 has been pushed back a couple months *so far* from when it was originally slated. Last I heard it was supposed to be shipping inside of this month, fingers crossed.

And, as in the post above, it’s still got a good long while before it enters into MDR territory.

Speaking of what MDR territory is, as far as wait-time...

I said that back on 6/22, and apparently he just got a shipping notice for parts from DT. "One week out".

If that's what people have been dealing with re: this MDR release, I'm amazed anyone has anything positive at all to say. A ten week wait on parts "in stock".

We have a loooong ways before T7 delays enter into MDR territory.

Sure do. Literally years, by the sound of it.

DT really fumbled this one.

Saw two black MDRs in a shop in Orem, UT, serials in the 1900 range.

The serial numbers at this point really don't mean anything with regards to when they were manufactured as complete rifles.  I have two that I got in February/March that are in the 2900 and 2800 range.

I thought these serial numbers indicated they were produced in 1900 and took 118 years to get from DT to a store in their homestate. Man I feel for some of the guys still waiting, it's going to take a while to fill all the backorders until they get to the group buys.

The group buy from the bullpup forum has been receiving some for awhile... not as many as those of us waiting for rifles would like but they are trickling in none the less.

And how many of those are going back to DT for repair after a couple range sessions?

That's a stat I'm curious to know and the question was asked but left unanswered in the q+a thread on the bpf.

I'm somewhere between 4-600rds by my estimation. It has been back twice and there will be a third.

I've just accepted the fact that without some mods and aftermarket parts it's never going to be the rifle I expected and think it should have been.

We really don't know...honestly...most MDR owners are being very quite about this platform...except a handful of people...

I've personally have given up on pursuing this platform as a viable defensive tool...after seeing just how much foreign MIM parts are utilized in crucial areas...from the looks of it...outside of the bolt carrier and barrel...everything is MIM...me personally...do not trust it...for crying out loud...the extractor is freaking MIM.

In addition, the MDR has an uber sharp recoil impulse (compared to other semi 308s) and iffy QC.

Too bad...MDR's design is solid.

Maybe in the next couple of years...things will improve...kind of like when the XCR-L was released.

My last hope on a 308 bullpup is the Tavor 7...but it seems IWI keeps hitting a snag with it as well and keeps delaying it.

LOL, the Q & A thread is the MDR release history repeating itself.

Started with a bang and a lot of false hope / promises to deliver answers, and now "toy maker" drops a post now and then to keep the devotees hooked and placified without delivering any substantive answers.

Love to watch the psychological manipulation by DT over there.

MDR HANDGUARD FLEX Video

Interesting that there shorter handguard flexes as much as an AR's twice as long.

Found one of your guys guns. They used it for this video. LoL

https://youtu.be/u_DfAQ_hwO0

Wow, so scientific and objective....not.

Extractor, who cares? The locking trunnion, however...

Yeah. Like I said. Outside of the barrel and bolt carrier...everything is MIM. $2500 I was expecting better metal quality.

A $2000+ rifle with a MIM extractor, LOL.  You must be kidding.

That kind of money I'd expect zero MIM, and if there were a couple of non essential ( to functioning and firing ) ones, they should be done by a high quality American firm. Ruger does work for a lot of other companies, gun companies and other industries, and does about the best job of it and casting that can be done.

Honestly though, for $2000-2500 I would expect machined parts.

I am not.

At least the high stress parts like gas block, bolt, extractor and barrel trunnions should be proper steel. But all that is MIM on the MDR.

The ejector mechanism is also MIM along with the Ejection Chutes. So pretty much outside of the barrel and bolt carrier. It’s all MIM.

LOL, the MIM parts cost 30% less.  If DT asks $2500 for a gun with so much MIM, how much would it cost without all of the MIM parts?  Alternately, why does a gun with so much MIM cost so much?  All of the non-MIM parts must be made of unobtanium coated with unicorn dust!

Have to AKs, are the guys behind DT also running Moviepass?

Pure speculation, but I wonder if DT didn't convince the Indians to sell them the parts at a cost based on sales predictions. IOW, to eat the upfront mold costs and amortize them into parts cost...

I think this whole MIM crap started after they hired someone from Sig

I think people might be complaining too much that MIM parts are being used in the MDR without much thought. MIM parts are used in other firearm as well as in other products and I'm surprised at the swift condemnation of of the MDR just because it's in the gun. I'll never excuse the cluster f#$^ that's been in its release but I've been following this thread for a while now and most issues seem to involve a design flaw, not broken parts.

In this case people seem quick to condem the MDR just because of MIM is being used. So with that, can an anyone really answer that the MIM parts in the MDR (or in any firearm for that matter) is actually a serious problem as opposed to being poorly designed? It just seems to me its more of a bias or stigma towards MIM then anything else. (As a side question, does the T7 use MIM as well and will people complain about that too?)

Thehun06,
The MIM'd extractor lasts over twice as long as the machined extractors we built so do you want a MIM extractor that last 12K+ rounds or a machined extractor that breaks at 4-5K rounds?  MIM technology is an advanced technology that allows very complex parts to be made into production, MIM technology also allows parts to be much lighter because you can shave excess metal off of parts that you couldn't machine.  Sig, IWI, Colt, S&W, and about 20 other US gun companies all MIM the same types of parts as we do and get them from the same foreign MIM supplier that we use at Desert Tech, LLC.  It is very frustrating that everyone seems to be an engineering expert and puts miss-information out there.  Had we machined all of the parts the MDR would be a pound heavier sell for $5,000 and the parts wouldn't have had the same endurance as MIM.

We have had some initial teething pains with the MDR, our initial warranty rate was 5% which is higher than is acceptable and we have been addressing those issues and putting appropriate measures in place to avoid further warranty issues.  Unfortunately we already have egg on our face from delivering MDR's much later then we expected so it seems that peoples patience with us is nonexistent now.  The MDR is everything we promised it to be and for anyone who experienced problems we will fix it 100%.

As far as the sourcing for the MIM we utilize two companies one is a US company and the other is a foreign company the foreign company was approached because the US company couldn't MIM all of the parts we needed.  In fact the foreign company won best in class industry award in the MIM industry for creating a new MIM technology to make the MDR parts we hired them to make.  So if you think that because a foreign company makes the parts they are by default garbage parts, then you are very ignorant, please just stop miss-leading everyone and pretending to be an expert.

Sincerely

Nicholas Young
CEO, Desert Tech

MIM has come a long way in the last ~20 years, but it's always going to have a "cheap garbage" reputation with those that haven't kept up with technology.
Suppliers in Asia and India can produce whatever you want, as long as you spec every little detail and leave nothing open to interpretation.

As for customers' patience, can you really blame them?  Are there still unfilled pre-orders going on ~2.5 years?  From the outside looking in, it looks like all the pre-order money was used for R&D instead of building rifles.

I want to like the MDR, DT's reputation is for compact, accurate rifles, but it's heavier, more expensive and less accurate (by most accounts) than claimed at release.
For now I'll stick with my old "garbage" RFB.

I don't believe any customer's guns have reached anywhere near those round counts to begin with, or ever will, because they're having so many issues the guns have become a burden rather than an enjoyment. I don't believe you have any guns with that round count either, if you do, produce the evidence. Honestly you've been so untruthful throughout this whole ordeal, I, and most here, don't believe anything you say. If you don't have the evidence, have a trusted member of this site test one of your MDRs in a 5,000 or 10,000 rd test, and have them film and document it. Other gun makers have theirs tested in that manner, so you shouldn't have a problem. Have someone torture test it.

And btw, yes I know you can cycle test a part without it in the gun, but that is rarely ever even close to the real world results.

@sr90 I guess I applaud your courage for stepping into this thread. Please have "Miss Leading" proofread your communications in the future, maybe she knows the difference between her name and misleading. I'll just say if your product weren't known for breaking that very few people would complain about your MIM parts.  Using a technology that's perceived (rightly or wrongly) as low quality and having a product making a name for itself as low quality certainly tends to further the impression that technology is low quality.

Thank you for directly answering me regarding the MDR.

I have said that MIM has improved over the years many times over...but your platform has severely overused it without proving us that it is the best choice for durability and quality. There is no way around it...MIM will always be the cheaper option (which it is) in people's minds, especially in the firearms industry. That is just the reality no matter if you accept it or not. Therefore, the MDR with its insanely high % usage of MIM has a steep hill to climb.

MIM is ok...but you are using it in very crucial areas like the barrel block/trunnion and extractor. In those areas, MIM has been proven to fail over and over again in firearms. So I am sorry if we are a bit skeptical in believing you that it can survive over 10K+ rounds of hard use when you have failures reported under 1000 rds fired of slow, bench shooting.

Regarding your Indian sourced company and its MIM parts. I've seen many parts from them break on Sigs...so just because they have won an award that is based on reducing costs and time for you...it does not speak to their ability to produce precise, durable parts. Calling me ignorant is probably not very professional of you, but whatever it is a free country.

Your platform keeps having more reported issues over and over again vs good reports, which does not scream that the quality is there for your $2500+ rifle. Therefore, your platform has not won us over regarding your excessive use of the latest MIM technology that you speak of.

My personal opinion, which you and others can disagree with, is that MIM does not belong on certain, highly stressed firearms parts. I've seen them fail and they continue to fail. You are charging premium money for your MDR...it should have improved quality and reliability over a TAVOR that costs only $1700 or less, which the MDR has not proven to do so. The MDR should also perform, at minimum, as reliable as a cheap PSA AR15, which so far has not been proven to do so. You should at least have a machined tool steel extractor, non MIM block/trunnion and a better way to retain your short screws from backing out of the receiver because it appears that loctite is not working. I can clearly say that I have NEVER seen this much MIM used in a rifle...period...and I have owned pretty much every modern carbine available to us in the USA outside of a HK MR556. My Italian plastic fantastic ARX100 right now is performing at a higher level with quality than the MDR.

What are you expecting from people? Seriously? Delay after delay...bad reports after bad reports...questionable material choices...subpar accuracy, reports of refunds not being provided in expediently and preorders that are still not fulfilled a year after release...do you really expect people to sing your praises right now? Do you honestly think in a capitalist environment that is going to happen?

Lastly, you might want to proof read your posts before posting as the leader of DT...miss-leading and miss-information is not correct, it is spelled misleading and misinformation.

Good luck with the MDR...it is well designed in form and I love its ergos...but so far...it is poorly executed as a final product at the price it is asking. I hope it will become a success and if the platform over time can be proven to be reliable, accurate with high quality...I might pick one up...but the first generation of it so far does not scream that.

I also respect you coming into the wolf's den and engaging with us.

Sincerely,

Thehun06

If you were driving a delivery truck from Utah to Arizona and a flood washed out the main highway so you had to back track and go another root that added a day to your travel were you being dishonest in your initial delivery estimate, because you had no idea the road would be washed out until you got to it.  Now imagine that you couldn’t turn around and take another root and instead you had to get all the equipment necessary to fix the road yourself before you could make it to your destination and it added three weeks on your delivery time.  This is a good example on what happens during development, you never know what you are going to hit and every time you hit something it adds weeks to the project.  Just like the 5.56 MDR's we were confident almost two months ago that we had it finished then we introduced two new models of suppressors into the testing mix and we had to diagnose the new problem and validate the fix.

The ultimate fix is to not expose the market to the development time, and not announce the product until it is in production, which is the model we will follow moving forward.  Please understand at no time were we being dishonest, we were providing our best predictions but we didn't meet them unfortunately and I apologize for that.  We gave continual updates of new information was available because we owed that to the market.  If it means anything, we developed the MDR in less time then it took IWI to develop the Tavor.

Thanks

Nick

To provide insight on the pre-orders, we did not use pre-order money to fund the R&D on the MDR we took deposits to lock people into the priority of shipments and fully expected to start shipping on time, once we missed the deadline then we willingly offered refunds for those who didn't want to wait anymore, a small percentage took the refunds and I can respect their choice.

As far as round counts in development guns we did indeed fire 12K+ ammo through numerous .308 win MDR's and I can tell you right now we have several 5.56 MDR's with over 30,000 rounds through each of them.  If you don't believe it that doesn't matter because it is still true.  We have fully documented all of the endurance tests on both calibers.

As far as the quality of the MDR, we started off with a sour taste in every-ones mouth due to the delays so for the 5% that experienced an issue it made them extremely angry and vocal.  I agree that the quality will be judged based on the performance and I am confident that it's quality will shine through and I am also confident that anyone who is having issues with their MDR will be completely satisfied with all future repairs we perform on their rifle.

I'm honestly not sure how to satisfy all the haters, other then changing our internal processes we have already done, I hope someday we can put things to rest and maybe even gain your business back, and if not I can respect that.  The reason I posted on this forum is to set straight the misleading information that what being thrown all over about the MDR.

I realize that we failed in delivering the MDR on time, but we did not fail in making the MDR what it was supposed to be, we had some initial teething pains but we have fixed those.  Anyone who has a rifle not functioning as it should get it sent to us ASAP and we will correct the issue.

Given our own @newguy2k3 has sent his rifle back *TWICE* and reports that it will be going back for a *THIRD* attempt, your statement @sr90 simply doesn't pass the sniff test.  So if you want to silence the naysayers, you need to get your quality on the ball and your customer service turned up to 11.  Charging folks for the adjustable gas regulator stank to high heaven, multiple reports here of repeated returns to the factory for the same failure, etc...  Don't try and put this on the audience, there are very clear failures in your own house which have caused the situation you're in.

TheHun06,
A small percentage of MDR owners had issues and we have addressed or are addressing those.  That means 95% of MDR owners had absolutely no issues with their MDR.  Your right I am sitting in the driver seat so I know exactly how many rifles have had issues and what issues they have had.  I know that we tested prototype MDR's that had all machined parts in them and that they didn't last as long as the MIM.  I know what it took to prevent the 5% of guns shipped from having continued issues.  I know that at least half of the 5% was due to our barrel supplier not DT and we flew to our barrel supplier to address the problem so it doesn't happen again.

Your opinion on MIM in the MDR is your unfounded opinion, we have spent millions of dollars in research and development on testing MIM against machined parts in the MDR.  You seem to believe that we didn't test both thoroughly but we did and the MIM was far superior.  Now whether you believe me or not I really don't care, because a hater is going to hate, it doesn't change the fact that it is the best option and makes the rifle better.

The MDR weighs a bit more than the FN SCAR because of our ejection panels, remove the panels and your at about the same weight.  The MDR costs more than the Tavor because the forward ejection system costs more and because it is a better rifle.  Develop a forward ejection system for the Tavor and you will have added $500+ to the price.

The accuracy on the MDR was never marketed at any time.  In testing we averaged 1.5 MOA accuracy with the MDR's and 1 MOA accuracy suppressed with our DTSS suppressor.  I can provide our accuracy reports for all of our top competitors that we measured against the MDR, SIG, LMT, FN SCAR, MR762A1, DPMS, RUGER, etc...  I can tell you the MDR was more accurate then both LMT's tested, the Sig, and the FN ScarH we tested and all four of those cost more then the MDR.  In addition the MDR absolutely spanks the Tavor's accuracy.

duplicate posting sorry.

I agree, however we have discovered some new fixes for the issues that we didn't know how to effectively address initially and we have revamped our warranty dept so newguy2k3 will be well taken care of. We no longer charge for the 6-hole valve, it is free to all MDR owners and those who purchased one previously received in store credit for their purchase.

No disrespect but please proof read your posts for spelling and grammar. This is a professional advise of one business professional to another. You are representing DT, your company.

While I congratulate you on getting the MDR developed in less time than IWI...it is clear...that the MDR lost quality and reliability during the process compared to IWI...and IWI is still more affordable. It is the difference between a larger .mil complex manufacturing vs niche market manufacturing. They have learned, over time that taking the extra time to develop, test and retest pays off once the product is released. Such companies have some serious investments into Six Sigma and lean operations from top to bottom.

It will also be interesting to see if the MDR's direct rival the T7, once released, will be as problematic as the 308 MDR. If not, your market will shrink away at a fairly rapid pace. Many of us will gravitate towards investing into the T7, if good range reports follow the release, because IWI has been proven to be highly reliable with great overall quality (albeit not the most accurate but combat accurate). Now, more than ever you have to be on top of pleasing your current remaining MDR preorder base that have not received their MDRs a year into production.

Making the new 6-position gas plug as a standard feature and free upgrade to existing MDR users was one of the best moves you've made.

My opinion on MIM is based on previous results in the firearms industries when firearms manufacturers decided to use none forged parts in crucial areas...period.

Now also lets be honest...90+% of firearms owners in America will probably fire 100rds a year...if that...so your 5% failure rate is not great (which you have admitted and applaud you for admitting it).

The MDR's design is 100% better than the Tavor...I have always said that DT is by far the best firearm design in the last 20 years...but for you to claim that the MDR is better than a Tavor is just really laughable Nick. Seriously. I know you have to defend DT, but to make that bold claim...that is like Alex Robinson with RobArms saying the same stuff you just posted when the XCR was released...don't make that mistake...they are still recovering from such lavish claims and was one of the reasons the XCR couldn't take off, besides the early technical mishaps. Their saving grace for that platform was Canada.

Seriously...the MDR has not proven a thing that it is better than any of the platforms you listed outside of whatever testing you've done. So far, the MDR in the hands of users has proven everything false that you've claimed, outside of the actual design. Not even in accuracy have proven to be...many have reported way more than 2 MOA accuracy with match grade ammo. Simply put, what real reports are available to us have squashed your claims regarding the platform.

I've been in product development. Kind of know how this goes. You might have done testing with machined parts vs MIM...don't know...nor do I really care now because the final product and materials have been chosen and released. The platform in the real world is performing at subpar levels and it has been released for a year now. All that matters now is quality, performance and durability for the MDR to thrive.

I truly do wish you and the crew at DT good luck on continuously thriving to make the MDR a viable option. I want one in my safe but it needs to start having a lot better field reports coming in before I pick it over my LMT MWS or the new T7 coming out.

TheHun06,
I appreciate and respect your responses.  I would like to share that we have implemented six sigma and lean at DT some time ago, our development processes are always in an ongoing improvement, every time we learn a better way we revise the process so it will stick.  As far as your statement that IWI Tavor's didn't have issues when they initially released them is not correct.  IWI did not bring the Tavor into the USA for more then 10 years after they started producing it.  I know for a fact that the Tavor had issues during the first years of its life, I witnessed them first hand.  The Tavor was released in 2001, their micro Tavor was released in 2009.  In 2010 then I was in the country Georgia on the military range with their Ministry of Interior because we sold them a large quantity of SRS sniper rifles and the MOI was using Micro Tavors and I asked them how they were performing and they told me IWI had to do some significant re-engineering to fix numerous problems they were experiencing with the rifles which required replacing several mechanisms in the rifles, IWI had flown their engineers to Georgia to witness the issues and go back home to re-engineer them, IWI did fix the problems in time.  Now the micro Tavor wasn't a brand new development rifle, it was a simple line extension from their Tavor rifle, their Tavor had been shipping for 9 years prior so how did they experience these issues with a simple line extension?  Also had we elected to abandon the forward ejection system then we would have saved millions and a tremendous amount of time but we believe the future combat rifle must have a forward ejection mechanism to allow operators to minimize body exposure to threats while taking corners so we stayed the course and will continue to stay the course.

As far as the backlog goes, we have filled nearly all of the backlog for 308 win MDR's so the next shipments will start to land on dealer shelves.  We will start crunching out the 5.56's ASAP.

How about the additional 1lb+ weight added between 2015 and production?

SHOT had the weight at 7.5 lbs, now it's advertised at 8.67 lbs.
The difference is the weight of a loaded 30rd AR mag.
It's a chunk, and half a pound heavier than the RFB.
The RFB also has forward ejection, though granted it is more of a challenge to check and clear the chamber with the RFB.
My biggest gripe with the RFB is the cheap feeling plastics and mag selection.  Other than that mine has run like a top through several thousand rounds since I picked it up in 2009...
This is of course a sample size of 1, and I know the RFB had teething problems as well. I also know that KelTec produces most of their components in-house to avoid issues with sub-suppliers...

The 1 lbs increase was a result of increasing the amount of steel in the gun and increasing the thickness and strength of the ejection mechanisms.  We found the initial prototypes didn't hold up to the abuse and endurance needs so we added more steel.

I'm glad you are happy with your RFB, I hope someday you can get time on the MDR so you can have first hand experience with them both side by side and I think you will appreciate the differences.

Same here, like I said, I really want to like the MDR. I was very excited when it was announced, particularly for the MDR-C.

I am an ethics, six sigma, lean operations and contract management guy...I appreciate that you invest into six sigma and lean. You can utilize those processes not just in manufacturing but throughout all the departments. Kudos for you on that, good step.

Correct, IWI did have problems...but what WE got in the US market was pretty much a flawless release.

Please know...I want you guys to succeed really bad...like really bad. But at times, what is needed are people like me that challenges things and plays devil's advocate...as a customer being outside of DT with no direct company influence...it is the least I can do to try and help identify shortcomings and maybe just maybe...something sticks that goes back to DT for improvement or a second look.

I really want one but I am having a hard time justifying the cost with the current performance reports and not prepared to give up my 13.5" LMT MWS just yet as my primary 308 SA gun.

I also appreciate you taking the time and investing in us and listen to our feedback...the good...bad and the ugly.

thehun06,
I'm glad to hear your feedback and I welcome anyone to contact me directly or even come by our facilities for a tour of who we are and how we do things.  I realize if people weren't so excited for the product they wouldn't be so angry.  We are there guys we really are so don't lose faith because the MDR is what we said it would be.

Guys,
I have posted a lot more Q&A items in the bullpup forum for those who are interested they can find them here.

MDR Q&A updates

If I misspelled anything forgive me, I was up until 5 am writing them and the only reason I had time to get to them is because I've been home in bed with the flu for the past three days.

Wow