Browning’s 725 has edged out the market in my opinion.  This hurts to say as a Beretta fan boy.  The current 725’s receiver dimensions make for a 12ga that handles like a 5k gun.  Browning has kept barrel regulation near perfect.  Customer service is just okay but probably the 2nd best in the entry level category. Their entry level guns have wood and receiver aesthetics on par with everyone else.  

Beretta.  How the mighty have fallen.  They need to fix their recent production barrel regulation issues ASAP.  The 680 is a fantastic receiver but they have done little to improve in the design and are getting over taken by their competitors.  Wood and aesthetics are still pleasing but nothing over the top.  Their customer service is terrible.  An outside company, Cole’s is pretty much your only hope on a quick turnaround for any smithing issues.

Rizzini.  A great company that I wish would be more popular.   They offer a true round receiver at an entry level price.  They have a great action but not as robust as Beretta or Browning.  A non issue for 99.9999% of the shooters in thus world.  They do run on the heavy side.  Some of the aesthetics are a little rough.  Customer service is surprisingly good considering the market share they hold.

Franchi. It’s a budget true built Italian gun.  Franchi focuses more on form over function.  For most people that’s perfectly fine.  You can buy a beautiful gun for less money.  You aren’t going to get an indestructible gun.  Barrel regulation isn’t perfect but’s not terrible either. Gun weights are all over the place.  The functioning parts of the gun are roughly machine but functional.  Customer service...good luck.  

Honorable mentions that don’t dominate the market place:

Caesar Guerini.  Fantastic guns, great customer service, but very few “entry level” priced guns

Winchester.  Tried and true.  If you want a steady eddy, look no further.  Not as robust as the 2 B’s actions but there is no practical advantage for most shooters.  A little heavy but they cater to the clays crowd.
Weatherby.  The SKB action is alive and kicking.  A bit Clumsy and overbuilt but it’s indestructible.  Fantastic Japanese made barrels and beautiful wood.  I wish I’d see more of these being bought and used.

CZ.  I just can’t bring myself to trust a Turkish made gun.  Perhaps Turkey will Follow both Spain and Italy and one day go from looked down to coveted.  Supposedly they’ve fixed their soft metal problems fixed and their barrel regulation is okay.  I saw some recent production guns.  They looked nice and handled well.

Benelli.  Go back to auto’s.  Why in the world would I want an O/U that had a receiver nearly as long as an auto.  They’re light in all the wrong places.  It’s like someone let the designers of the Ruger Red Label fuck up a shotgun again.

Just picked up a brand new Citori. It fits right,

I have a Stevens 555. I believe CS for Stevens would be the same as Savage. Yes, it's a Turkish gun but I don't feel that quality is severely lacking. It shoots well, fit and finish is acceptable. For a sub $700 O/U I'm happy with it. That being said, would I buy one for retail price? No. I would pony up a little more for an older Beretta. My brother won it in a raffle, he doesn't do much shotgun shooting and I was after a beater O/U for upland bird hunting. I traded him an entry level AR15. My biggest gripe is the alloy receiver makes it front heavy and it recoils bit sharper, but it's light weight is a plus for walking the fields and the sharp recoil isn't a problem for hunting. 4 rounds of trap is about my limit with it before I have to give my shoulder a week to heal up. That's with 1200 FPS 1-1/8 oz trap loads I roll.

Entry level quality O/U’s are 50,000-100,000 round guns.

That gun won’t go nearly that many rounds.  For most people they will be happy but it’s not in the same category as the aforementioned guns.

My apologies, I didn't realize there was a level below "entry level". I'll go be poor elsewhere. But before I do, what is the level below entry level where such budget O/U belong?

You’re leaving out an important word.  Quality.  The cheapest gun out there can be entry level.  The cheapest gun out there more often than not won’t be a quality entry level gun.

I’m not sure anything on the new market sub $1500 isn’t going to have some giant shortcomings.  Maybe Weatherby has a no frills model?  I don’t think the 686  essential is a thing anymore.  
Regulating barrels requires skilled labor.  Quality inertia triggers are not cheap and neither are mechanical triggers.

I wouldn’t buy a budget gun, they’re a novelty.  I’d either buy used or stick with an auto or pump if you couldn’t swing one of the tried and true actions.

uh, MSRP is over 2500 for the field grade. that's not entry level. honestly I would consider anything above that to be old guy snob level.

I always steer new shooters toward the miroku made guns, citoris and charles daly. Also hard to go wrong with Nikko 5000. I think Nikko makes the Winchesters. I have one of each. Are they on the same level as ,y early 80s perazzi? No. Are they damn good for sub-$1000? Hell yes.

The Beretta 686 I started out with is beat to hell after around 70k.  It'll run for a while longer after the last servicing, but I'm glad I upgraded.  

Now a younger shooter is enjoying that gun dipping his toe into skeet.  If it survives him I have no clue what I'm going to do with the gun

It really is entry level when it comes to a quality gun.  Snob level starts well into the 10k plus guns but even then some of the benchmark competition guns are in that range or exceed that price and there is hardly anything snobbish about those firearms.

Where are you finding New Nikko 5000’s for sale?  Let alone new for under 1k?  
I’ve never seen a new Winchester O/U for under 1k either.

Unfortunately there is no quality O/U sub $1000.

The CZs have problems, several I've seen have trigger issues because of soft parts.
I coach a 4H trap team. Many of the kids bought Yildiz because they just had to have an O/U.
Every. Single. One has had problems.
I finally had to replace the firing pins in my 525 after God knows how many rounds. 20k plus.

The sub $1000 O/U my shoot for a while, or maybe not, but will not hold up to regular use.

New springs, maybe new locking lug if the release lever is edging past 6:00, mechanically as good as new.  Refinish stock and reblue the barrels and it is as good as new.  That action is capable of several hundred thousand rounds with periodic maintenance.  It takes about an hour to respring one, little more if you do the lever spring (that spring is a certifiable pita).

The only thing that is a big aww shit is if you mess up the ejectors.  Ejector replacement and fitting is pricey.  No real problem, but not inexpensive.  Replacement ejectors are soft so they can be fit, then they have to be heat treated, then final fit and timed.  You can figure a couple hundred per each ejector.

Last servicing saw springs and locking lug.  Stock is fine (not a factory Beretta stock so pretty new) and barrel finish looks like it's been through a garbage disposal.  Receiver finish was wearing through in a few spots.

I upgraded to a Kolar about 2 years ago, so the Beretta is my loaner gun.  The Beretta probably has closer to 100k though it, the 70k was just since I got tubes and started competing seriously (plus whatever the person it's been loaned out to since April has through it)

I had glenrock bluing out of glenrock Wyoming reblue my DT-10 barrel.  It came out really good.

Sorry, your original title of "entry level quality" read as if "entry level" was the quality of which you were speaking to. The title "quality entry level" is more clear what you mean.



I wasn't trying to say that a Turkish gun would go as long or as far as those you mentioned. I was simply voicing my opinion of a cheap O/U I got a good deal on. If I was still shooting competitive trap I could justify a higher end gun but it's hard to justify that for shooting clays with friends a few times a year and 1 upland bird trip a year. For my use I think the Stevens is ok. To be completely honest, my Beretta auto is still my favorite shotgun but my wife laid claim to that one for our bird trips so I was in the market for an O/U when my brother asked if I was interested. I don't regret the trade.

My thread title has never been edited...

There’s nothing wrong with Turkish guns for occasional use but This thread is about quality entry level guns, not guns that are essentially novelty or purchased purely for aesthetics.

I’ve only have about 4K rounds through my 686 Silver Pigeon but if I ever have any problem Coles is less than 3 miles away.

I’m going to read OP full post later, looks interesting.  But saw this and the Citori fit me despite despite me wanting to love the Beretta 692. Love my 725.

What’s funny the 725 is much more Beretta like than any Citori variant.  If the 725 has any complaints it’s usually from life long Citori shooters picking up a gun that just doesn’t feel like the gun they know.

I bought my Beretta because it fitted better than a Browning and I have heard positive things about Beretta’s CS and I have only heard very bad things about Browning

Well I right in my thinking.  I just picked up a brand new ATI SVE 20 ga. O/U from a local gun shop that I won in a raffle for $50 (County 4h sold 1000 tickets for 30 guns using nightly Texas pick 3 lottery numbers to determine winners). I hit on the 30th night.

Made by KOFS in Turkey.

I am a semi auto type guy. My Winchester 1400 12 ga. has served me well since 1977. Perfect round pattern.

The ATI is actually a good looking shot gun for $600.  But sounds like a below entry level o/u by the standards I am reading here.

So what is my thinking? I have no need for it.  Going to sell it or trade  it off at a gun show by the end of January.

Depends.  Are you going to shoot 10 rounds of clays a year?  Maybe go hunting a few times a year?  Keep it...just don’t expect it to hold up if you get serious.  

If you do plan on shooting on a regular basis and can’t afford a quality entry level O/U buy used, if you can’t afford that buy a nice used auto.

I've never handled a 725 but I don't care for the Citori. I owned one for a year(wife still owns one but I won't shoot it)and just never could get used to it, I think it was the combination of the lower comb and high profile receiver that gave me fits. I do like the Cynergy, it fit's me well as long as long as it has either the original Cynergy type stock or is one of the CX versions.

There is a very real possibility that Turkey will go the way if Italy and Spain.  Both countries were once considered junk when it came to sxs and O/U production...now they’re sought after. AYA was considers trash.  AYA’s are fetching huge amounts of money now.  

That being said, everyone is waiting for proofvthings have improved past aesthetics.  They earned a bad reputation for some really lousy guns early.  Soft steel is just beyond unacceptable.  It’s very hard to purchase a new CZ when a person can get a used gun tried and true Beretta and Browning for the same price.  It’s going to take time for them to climb the ladder and become reputable in the O/U market.  I really wish them luck.  It be great to see a quality O/U on the market that is accessible to all income levels.

I like that they are breaking into the SxS market.  The only real competition they have outside of other Turkish manufactured guns is Fabarm in their price point.

I still thing the Browning 725 and Beretta 690's are entry level guns.  Sure, they're pricey, but with O/U's you get what you pay for.

I was on the fence for a few years before I bought my first O/U. I finally decided to go the Beretta 686 route and look for a good used one, then one day I found a NIB Old Stock SKB 605 and bought it instead. Quality gun all around, been looking for a 20ga. version, but if I don’t find one, I’ll go the Berreta rout for sure.

I've read this thread several times as I am in the market for a O/U, I didnt want to hijack it with a question but I'll bump it with one.

There is a literal wall full of O/U guns at my LGS, mostly Berettas and mostly in the $1800 range. 686s, 690s etc.

I had a 686 Silver Pidgeon for a few years and it had the most beautiful wood I have ever seen on a gun, save for a H&H double my uncle owns.

So I would like to replace it with another 20ga, possibly a Beretta. My two questions;

Is there a better gun in that price range? It likely wont be shot much, 1k rounds a year or so.

With that amount of use, would I be be needing (major) maintenance with a Beretta sooner than a ________?

Thanks

There is not a better gun in the price range of a 686.  Browning is a competitor, and quality will be roughly the same.

The 686 does not have replaceable barrel trunnions, so you can expect them to wear out at around +/- 200k rounds.  Assuming that you do not have an unanticipated hammer spring or firing pin break, figure on a rebuild in a couple hundred years at your anticipated rate of use.  

Thank you both for the feedback! Thats good to hear, I guess I'll take the LGS offer to snoop around for the "pick of the litter" so to speak, wood wise.

Your two choices in that range are Beretta, Browning, and Rizzini if you spend about $200 more.

Find which one fits and go from there.

You don’t need to worry about anything at that round counts.  There are many B guns that go 5k rounds without more than an oily rag wipe down.  You’re talking maintenance and the 15-20k round count interval for most of these guns.  Most make it well past 50k rounds without the need for any smithing maintenance.

The trunions and the locking lugs can both replaced with oversized replacements.  Never really had to replace trunions, I've replaced locking lugs.  Locking lugs come in +0.015, and + 0.030.  If the lever comes past 6:00 on the +0.030 oversize lugs, then they bush the holes in the monobloc and start over with factory initial lugs.

On trunions, if they are getting worn or sloppy you can take them out and reverse them right side to left and left side to right.  That will put unworn trunion surfaces on the bbl lugs.

Usually figure an overhaul at about 100k rounds, though I'd do springs more frequently than that. J&P Springs makes a good spring replacement kit for 68x series.

You'll want to take care not to screw up ejectors.  They are only about $60 ea. IIRC, but they have to be fit and heat treated.  I think Coles is around another $150 ea. or more for fitting and heat treating ejectors.  Learn how to take them out, clean them, lube them, and put them back in.

The 686 does not have replaceable barrel shoulders.  The 680, 682, and 687 models do have replaceable shoulders, I don't remember of ever hearing of anyone having to replace them.  The replacement shoulders are pretty rough finished, they look like they would be a lot of work to fit and finish.

I use to agree but barrel regulation has suffered in new production guns.

Well, I made it to the shop on Monday and the wall of O/U guns was wiped out. They had one Perazzi (spelling is probably wrong) and a Mossberg that was .410 bore.

I was so dumbfounded that I walked past the reloading section and it didnt even register that I needed more Win760 and Varget, which they had.

So I guess I'll keep waiting, there are a few stores around Fayetteville but I'd just as soon not go there.

Thanks for all of the "B" guns education!

I got to shoot a Perazzi this weekend.  It was even a left handed version.  Man, some things you can tell are quality by the feel.  This was one of those things.  What a nice gun.  But, Waaaayyyyy out of my price range.

Yeah, there was no price on it and when I asked him he said it was more than "walking around money" which around here is code for 5k, local speak for the minimum you should have on you should you find a Farmall tractor for sale.

In a world of 70k pickup trucks, and 2K binoculars, and a Filson Wool jacket that costs ?400? bucks...

How about a CSMC Revelation?  I am looking at them long and hard.  You have to consider what a quality field gun cost the average joe in last century.  Inflation is a bitch.

Plan on 9-15k new depending on wood, engraving, etc

I understand that and I'm not complaining, I'm happy for those that own them. I'm not familiar with what you are looking at but if you want it I hope you get it, and I would really like to see pics of it.

As an owner of only two nice weapons, it's easy to marvel at them.

Well, all-in-all that isnt as high as I thought it may be. It wasnt overly embellished but beautiful nonetheless. I have a Sauer 404 Elegance, I'd say they are equals which is saying alot.

Connecticut Shotgun Manufacturing invested heavily in CNC machines to the point that they are producing O/U and SxS shotguns that are essentially completely machine made.  The company produces new Fox shotguns, purchased the rights and now make new Winchester 21 sxs guns, and their own line of high end shotguns.

All of it is completely made in the USA and the newest product (I think) is the CSMC Revelation, which is a 20 gauge o/u with either straight or pistol grip stock, 28 or 30" barrels and interchangeable chokes.  There are wood upgrades if you desire, and for the quality of what is offered they are a bargain at $2,450.  In that price range the competition are Browning O/Us, which are well made by IIRC Miroku.  There are also Beretta 600 series guns, but I have heard disturbing rumors of barrel regulation problems in recently produced Berettas.  Further, there is oddball Benelli O/U, and a couple of other boutique Italian guns like the Rizzini and FAIR.  

I am in the market for a field (grouse) gun, which means I want light weight and good balance.  The CSMC meets that need- even the 30" pistol grip stocked version weighs about 6.25 pounds.

My and my brother’s Beretta 686 Sporting (30 and 32 inch) have been flawless.  Pattern great, POA/POI line up, and zero malfunctions in about 20K shells the past few years we’ve had them.

Best entry level O/U. besides a Browning Citori which unfortunately don’t fit me well.  Beretta’s fit me with just LOP adjustment.

Our friend has a CZ O/U and it has had problems.  Not in the same league of quality.  The OP is right, $2K is the entry-level for a decent O/U.

Why an O/U?  You know if you shout a lot of clays.  No semi points as well and you have to fetch your shells.  If you don’t reload then you’re not a serious shotgun shooter, unless you’re a  pro with an ammo sponsorship or an Arfcom millionaire.