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Posted: 8/21/2018 7:41:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Jesus Christ, 12” thick reinforced concrete walls and ceiling? What are you storing in there, gold bars?
IMHO, that thing is completely overbuilt. |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 7:44:05 PM EDT
[#2]
OMG, that is way more then I thought a 2 hour vault would be,
They spec some heavy duty concrete and rebar that I would not think is necessary for the fire rating but I don't know much about building vaults. I can see using these specs for a vault in a bank but not in a home for fire protection and neighborhood theft. I would look for a spec sheet that does not meet gov specs. Is your insurance company the FDIC? |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 8:10:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing too, but I don't know much about vaults. This company has built several locally, so they have experience.
What would be a reasonable wall thickness? 6 inches? |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 8:13:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing too, but I don't know much about vaults. This company has built several locally, so they have experience. What would be a reasonable wall thickness? 6 inches? |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 8:22:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have an actual use for a 50k plus vault? |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 8:25:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have an actual use for a 50k plus vault? |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 8:30:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing too, but I don't know much about vaults. This company has built several locally, so they have experience. What would be a reasonable wall thickness? 6 inches? around here that is considered "certified concrete" and you would be wasting money there as well as the thickness specified. "One of the most important factors before ordering ready mix concrete is knowing the required compressive strength. Typically, reinforced concrete ranging between 3,500 to 4,000 psi is used on footing and slabs on grade; between 3,500 to 5,000 psi on suspended slabs, beams and girders; and walls and columns normally require between 3,000 to 5,000 psi. When non-reinforced concrete is used different strengths will be required. If you are using it on footings and walls, a concrete strength of 2,500 psi could be enough while between 4,000 to 5,000 psi is needed for pavements." I doubt the builder would order that stuff and charge you for it anyway figuring you will never core test it, around here there are only 2 concrete plants certified to make that mix. |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 9:26:42 PM EDT
[#8]
I'd hate to see the quote to not build 2 of the walls putting it in a corner.
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Posted: 8/21/2018 9:30:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Seems high to me, but I don't know what part of the world you're in. Modular vaults tend to be less expensive and have other tax advantages.
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Posted: 8/21/2018 9:32:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems high to me, but I don't know what part of the world you're in. Modular vaults tend to be less expensive and have other tax advantages. |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 9:34:30 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm in concrete construction and have even poured a few vaults. That seems quite high. Not 100% high, but high.
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Posted: 8/21/2018 9:50:44 PM EDT
[#12]
I'd look into a steel prefab tornado shelter that could be bolted in. But I also know we have no clue what this "vault" will be required to hold.
A 2 hour fire requirement seems to be the issue - goes to I'd just as soon not want to possess something that special. Anyway, steel vault a few feet shorter than the room and then line the gap with - ? would seem a lot cheaper. If you had TWO steel vaults and completely welded them then sucked out the air in between it would be a huge Thermos vault . . . |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 9:54:07 PM EDT
[#13]
are they heloing the concrete in? that could be why its more than you thought, if you are building this literally in the middle of some isolated mountain range.
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Posted: 8/21/2018 10:12:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
are they heloing the concrete in? that could be why its more than you thought, if you are building this literally in the middle of some isolated mountain range. other option is 3-4 liberty presidential safes but a vault would be way more awesome. i know this forum loves amsec but i get liberty at wholesale. |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 10:21:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Fairbanks Alaska |
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Posted: 8/21/2018 10:58:00 PM EDT
[#16]
I’d get two more quotes.
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Posted: 8/21/2018 10:58:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Price aside I'd want two outlets per side.
What are they excluding? That's where the possible change orders are hidden. |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 1:46:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus Christ, 12” thick reinforced concrete walls and ceiling? What are you storing in there, gold bars? IMHO, that thing is completely overbuilt.  Attached File Attached File
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Posted: 8/25/2018 9:15:15 AM EDT
[#19]
$47?!???
I figured $10k lol although I just skimmed details Is that the ‘fuck you’ price? |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 10:32:45 AM EDT
[#20]
Some of you guys don't know what goes into building a UL rated bank vault.
Here. Pay close attention to the steel work. This is also a 12" vault. 
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Posted: 8/25/2018 11:28:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Guns are one of the cheapest things to insure (1/4 of Jewelry last I checked). Unless this is just a mancave item, I would look at the legit theft risk, financial exposure, etc and fine tune the requirements. I think you can get 100K in insurance for $400 / year. I have a locked room in the basement with safes inside. If I had money to burn I might build a vault for the wow factor but it would still be minimal with a safe inside for the valuables. I'm in a humid area and multiple safes is a much more controlled environment.
If you have a significant amount of uninsurable items like gold, cash, etc buy a TL rated safe to go in said vault and dial down the vault. Spend the balance on surveillance and other deterrents. 100% of well hidden rooms are never entered 
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Posted: 8/25/2018 11:50:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some of you guys don't know what goes into building a UL rated bank vault. Here. Pay close attention to the steel work. This is also a 12" vault. http://zykansafe.com/images/vaultpouredsteel1.jpg As I said earlier, I've poured a few (residential) vaults, and while they are extremely stout for that purpose, they aren't close to what a bank vault is. A residential vault is typically 8" or 10" concrete walls (3,000psi) with #4 rebar in a one foot grid, concrete floor and ceiling, and a secure fire door or vault door. Build one of those puppies, throw a decent gun safe inside it, then add a security system and you've got something more secure than 99.8% of all dwellings for both fire and theft. |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 12:07:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Reading the details $50k doesn't surprise me a bit. There are a lot of specialized materials in there that are driving up the price significantly. As others have said, it seems overbuilt. Personally, I would go with 8" CMU (fully grouted will still get you a 2 hr rating), #5 rebar is not unusually, but #4 is more common, however 2-#5's is a little more unusual and seems like overkill. I probably wouldn't change that for my location but I'm in tornado alley, with no risk of tornadoes or hurricanes I wouldn't go that heavy. As another poster mentioned 7,000# concrete is a specialty. We regularly see 6" storm shelter lids with 3,500# to 4,500# concrete. CMU is typically designed for a 2,000 psi breaking strength so 3,600 psi grout seems excessive. My cost prospective is also a bit different since I'm not in Alaska and I know that drives prices up somewhat.
(edit for spelling) |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 1:32:32 PM EDT
[#24]
A bank vault, for sure. A residential vault, though? I have a used TXTL-60 safe that would bring $50,000. It's all relative. Guess I should also point out the door situation as well. OP says he's providing his own door. If you're building a Class 3 vault, you'll also want a Class 3 door. If you're putting a lighter door on the room, or something without a UL rating, there's no need to spend all of that money on the room. Door should be slightly stronger than the room. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 11:21:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what he had bid. A UL listed bank vault (which is why the price is as high as it is). I'm assuming whatever it is he's using it for warrants all of the extra as opposed to a traditional residential vault. I have a used TXTL-60 safe that would bring $50,000. It's all relative. Guess I should also point out the door situation as well. OP says he's providing his own door. If you're building a Class 3 vault, you'll also want a Class 3 door. If you're putting a lighter door on the room, or something without a UL rating, there's no need to spend all of that money on the room. Door should be slightly stronger than the room. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 11:25:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Out of curiosity, what does that TXTL-60 weigh? |
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Posted: 8/30/2018 9:05:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing too, but I don't know much about vaults. This company has built several locally, so they have experience. What would be a reasonable wall thickness? 6 inches? |
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Posted: 8/30/2018 11:47:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I did 10”, but they did rest of the foundation the same when I built the house. I wasn’t going to go thicker, but I looked at the common sized (hand held)commercial concrete/demo saws and their cutting depth before I made my decision. Something to consider. What would really fuck up their day is if you had hardened rebar in the wall. Hit it and your cutting wheel is toast. |
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Posted: 8/31/2018 10:17:10 PM EDT
[#29]
I just had one built into my home. The size is 13x12 and is reinforced, poured concrete walls and top. The crew cut out the floor to pour a footing and then hired a concrete pumper to get the concrete to my vault. I bought the best inswing vault door from Smith Safe Co. (He asks for your walls to be 8 inches thick BTW) I finished the inside mostly by myself and made it a high class dream vault. In my opinion though, It seems you are paying a steep price comparatively.
My just finished 2018 vault breaks down like this: Total for the concrete work (7,500 PSI) $12,000 Vault door $7,000 Gallowtech gun boards and mounts $2,000 Custom built gun cabinets, benches, and casing $6,000 (plus traded professional favors) Murphy Door to conceal the vault door $2,500 Drywall, drain, flooring total $500 Total cost = $30,000 |
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Posted: 9/1/2018 8:32:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just had one built into my home. The size is 13x12 and is reinforced, poured concrete walls and top. The crew cut out the floor to pour a footing and then hired a concrete pumper to get the concrete to my vault. I bought the best inswing vault door from Smith Safe Co. (He asks for your walls to be 8 inches thick BTW) I finished the inside mostly by myself and made it a high class dream vault. In my opinion though, It seems you are paying a steep price comparatively. My just finished 2018 vault breaks down like this: Total for the concrete work (7,500 PSI) $12,000 Vault door $7,000 Gallowtech gun boards and mounts $2,000 Custom built gun cabinets, benches, and casing $6,000 (plus traded professional favors) Murphy Door to conceal the vault door $2,500 Drywall, drain, flooring total $500 Total cost = $30,000 |
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Posted: 9/2/2018 9:27:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Where did you pick up your Murphy door? |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 1:19:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I own a Stihl TS800 concrete demo saw. It was the biggest hand-held saw they made at the time (still might be, but I bought it five years ago). Max cut depth is 5.5" and cutting through walls is pretty taxing. It would take a team effort (more than one guy) and even if it was "merely" an 8" thick wall, there'd still be 2.5" of uncut wall that would have to be dealt with. What would really fuck up their day is if you had hardened rebar in the wall. Hit it and your cutting wheel is toast. If you think professional bank-robbers are going to hit your house for your ex-fiancé's engagement ring, $1500 cash, and some guns, then you definitely need the vault quoted to you. However, if you're worried about a drugged-out addict looking for drug money or things to pawn/sell, the most you realistically have to worry about is a demo saw that won't cut through an 8" thick wall. The reality is, you won't ever prevent a determined thief that has tools and time. You're just slowing them down. Anything 8" or up is enough to SIGNIFICANTLY slow down even a dedicated thief with tools to the point that he will likely give up and move on, unless he knows for a fact that you're gone for a few days and he can maintain a low enough profile to keep at it. We used to have a guy here in the forum that argued that 8" wasn't enough and that he could be through those walls in less than a minute with a quickie-saw/demo-saw. I told him to post the video because I've used demo-saws and they aren't that fast. He never could produce evidence that the saws were that fast or capable. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 1:42:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We used to have a guy here in the forum that argued that 8" wasn't enough and that he could be through those walls in less than a minute with a quickie-saw/demo-saw. I told him to post the video because I've used demo-saws and they aren't that fast. He never could produce evidence that the saws were that fast or capable. Yeah, I don't think an 8" concrete wall is going to be an easy nut to crack, no matter who is doing the attacking. |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 5:28:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If someone had to go through an 8" concrete wall and brought with them any hand-held tool known to man (demo saws, concrete hammer drills, sledge hammers, etc.), it would still take hours to make the cuts, and as we've already said, the biggest demo saws only have a 5.5" depth to them. So, after hours of cutting, you still aren't through the wall, and while you were cutting, you completely filled the entire space with concrete dust, so much so that you can't even see anymore. Now you've got to somehow get through the remaining 2.5" of concrete in a room where you can't see, can't breathe without professional respirators, and are probably completely physically wiped out. Yeah, I don't think an 8" concrete wall is going to be an easy nut to crack, no matter who is doing the attacking. 
Even a small ring saw can go 10" 
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Posted: 9/14/2018 7:30:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Even a highly reinforced bank vault is rated in minutes, not hours (although some of the ratings do indeed go to two hours). This includes the Class 3 vault construction that the OP mentioned. That is the highest UL rating for a bank vault. 120 minute tool rating.
A skilled burglar would make very short work out of typical foundation type of wall. |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 9:14:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even a highly reinforced bank vault is rated in minutes, not hours (although some of the ratings do indeed go to two hours). This includes the Class 3 vault construction that the OP mentioned. That is the highest UL rating for a bank vault. 120 minute tool rating. A skilled burglar would make very short work out of typical foundation type of wall. |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 9:42:28 PM EDT
[#37]
That's a pretty good savings.
From an commercial insurability standpoint, a Class M vault (poured not modular) would be an 8" pour with 1/2" rebar 6" on center horizontally and vertically. Modular panels are half as thick. |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 10:04:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not easy but there is a way to crack any nut. http://www.rentalhq.com/Portals/0/EasyDNNNews/139/600600p793EDNmainchainconcretesaw.jpg Even a small ring saw can go 10" https://hgcdn82.azureedge.net/qs_mh=680&mw=680&ver=00000000T000000&hcsh=E6A9F12E464D92C3AF33275013DF7C85AC9FEB16/_$$_/media/damroot/husqvarna%20construction/200%20%20handheld%20power%20cutters%20%20power%20packs/petrol%20power%20cutters/products/hc210-02xx/hc210-0267.ashx |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 10:05:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Sure hope you have about $200k or more to protect.
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Posted: 9/14/2018 11:00:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not easy but there is a way to crack any nut. http://www.rentalhq.com/Portals/0/EasyDNNNews/139/600600p793EDNmainchainconcretesaw.jpg Even a small ring saw can go 10" https://hgcdn82.azureedge.net/qs_mh=680&mw=680&ver=00000000T000000&hcsh=E6A9F12E464D92C3AF33275013DF7C85AC9FEB16/_$$_/media/damroot/husqvarna%20construction/200%20%20handheld%20power%20cutters%20%20power%20packs/petrol%20power%20cutters/products/hc210-02xx/hc210-0267.ashx Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If someone had to go through an 8" concrete wall and brought with them any hand-held tool known to man (demo saws, concrete hammer drills, sledge hammers, etc.), it would still take hours to make the cuts, and as we've already said, the biggest demo saws only have a 5.5" depth to them. So, after hours of cutting, you still aren't through the wall, and while you were cutting, you completely filled the entire space with concrete dust, so much so that you can't even see anymore. Now you've got to somehow get through the remaining 2.5" of concrete in a room where you can't see, can't breathe without professional respirators, and are probably completely physically wiped out. Yeah, I don't think an 8" concrete wall is going to be an easy nut to crack, no matter who is doing the attacking. http://www.rentalhq.com/Portals/0/EasyDNNNews/139/600600p793EDNmainchainconcretesaw.jpg Even a small ring saw can go 10" https://hgcdn82.azureedge.net/qs_mh=680&mw=680&ver=00000000T000000&hcsh=E6A9F12E464D92C3AF33275013DF7C85AC9FEB16/_$$_/media/damroot/husqvarna%20construction/200%20%20handheld%20power%20cutters%20%20power%20packs/petrol%20power%20cutters/products/hc210-02xx/hc210-0267.ashx As far as the demo chain saw goes, doesn't it need a hole before it can cut through a wall? |
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Posted: 9/15/2018 1:52:51 AM EDT
[#41]
You do not need a hole you can plunge with them.
Big core saws are not as common here but I guess if you are a skinny bank robber. 
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Posted: 9/16/2018 9:55:37 PM EDT
[#42]
The multiple posts above notwithstanding, it should be noted that robberies aren't exactly commonplace in most parts of the country. Additionally, robberies in which the perps break into a secure enclosure (gun safe, security door, and other types of lightly armored enclosures) is even more rare. beyond that, robberies that involve breaking into somewhat elaborately designed secured spaces are exceedingly rare. In a country with over 300 million people, how many robberies took place last year where the perps had to defeat a concrete wall or vault door? Maybe 50? 100? 150?
The point here is that there is a tiny fraction of criminals who can and/or will defeat and break into a space that is fortified with concrete walls and a serious door. They are few and far between. What makes you think your house is on the list of places that one of these guys (or teams of guys) wants to rob next? Does your house look like a bank? Do you run around waving stacks of $100 bills at everybody? Do you own a business that is known to generate lots of cash and many people are aware of that fact? The fact is, it's a pretty big undertaking to break into a place that is physically set up to thwart robberies. Harder still when you add in electronic security features like alarms and cameras. Anyone who is capable of defeating multiple layers of security (both electronic and physical) isn't casing random houses. He wants to make his efforts worthwhile and the vast majority of houses don't hold enough loot to entice him. For this reason, don't worry about your concrete wall in your basement being cut through, because in the unlikely event that your house is broken into, the guy doing it won't have the foggiest idea on how to get through it and he'll just leave it be. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 3:06:04 PM EDT
[#43]
It has been 13 years, but my builder added $10k into the cost of a 12" poured concrete basement to add the two walls, door rough in, and pan/rebar above to make a vault. I added a Fort Knox vault door for $3k.
If this is standalone, then it would likely be more. $47k seems high to me. They may be overspec'ing concrete, but that isn't my business so I could very well be wrong. |
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Posted: 9/27/2018 11:02:52 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote History So awesome!
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Posted: 10/4/2018 2:25:09 AM EDT
[#45]
weak point is going to be the door... cordless tools have gotten so good and cheap in the last decade, you are better off with insurance and security systems. And esp cameras, they have gotten super cheap.
concrete block with rebar and poured concrete on the inside is plenty, not sure how to manage the ceiling... |
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Posted: 10/4/2018 9:31:42 AM EDT
[#46]
weak point is going to be the door concrete block with rebar and poured concrete on the inside is plenty |
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Posted: 10/4/2018 7:46:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Holy hell thats high OP. Do you really need a UL rated vault?
For reference I'm in the process of having an above ground vault built right now. 12'x14'x8'-8" outside dimensions. 12" reinforced concrete slab under the whole thing, 8" reinforced walls, 8" reinforced ceiling poured over a metal deck. $14k Pole barn is getting built around it. Build thread for anyone interested, vault starts on page 9  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/27/2018 12:53:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Just curious why y'all went with poured concrete instead of the pre-fab units with higher psi, and lower install time? Don't see why those couldn't be custom made with the rebar and a way to lock them together. I'm not a foreman, so be gentle.
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Posted: 10/31/2018 11:13:18 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even a highly reinforced bank vault is rated in minutes, not hours (although some of the ratings do indeed go to two hours). This includes the Class 3 vault construction that the OP mentioned. That is the highest UL rating for a bank vault. 120 minute tool rating. A skilled burglar would make very short work out of typical foundation type of wall. Lets go back to my comments made previously. If you think a skilled professional with high-end tools has done the research to know you have a vault, know what is in the vault, and know how the vault is constructed, and he is coming to your house to get your ex-fiancé's engagement ring, $1500 cash, and some guns out of your vault, then you've got big problems and you likely need that Class 3 vault. OTOH, if you're just a normal guy, wanting to protect a collection from a smash & grab, or even a dedicated junkie, a normal 8" poured-wall vault is more than plenty. To those suggesting the concrete chainsaw or the ring-saw, or other such devices that COULD penetrate the vault. Take into account the totality of the situation. The smart folks with those tools and time to plan a coordinated vault break-in aren't targeting residential vaults. As a matter of fact, has a residential vault holding normal valuables EVER been targeted and successfully breeched? (IE, the billionaire with a large collection of fine gold artwork doesn't count) If there has been one breeched what were the circumstances? Skilled men with tools after high-end valuables? Junkie with pawn-shop tools and 2 weeks while owners are on vacation? The fact of the matter is that the only way a junkie is getting in is if he has LOTS of time... and that generally isn't the case. I've never seen a ring-saw in use before and only ever saw 1 chain-saw. Those are high-end tools that are usually only in the hands of professionals that paid very good money to get them. Lastly, my cousin has been through a smash & grab. He has lots of guns, he has a cheap RSC. They took TV's, electronics, keys to cars, power tools (that likely could've helped get into a safe), and numerous other things. They didn't even attempt to get in the safe. They tried the handle to see if it was unlocked and when it was locked, they just simply moved on to the low-hanging fruit. 99% of smash-grabs go that way. Very rarely are even RSCs attacked, let-alone concrete vaults... |
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Posted: 10/31/2018 12:02:13 PM EDT
[#50]
99% of smash-grabs go that way. Very rarely are even RSCs attacked, let-alone concrete vaults... It's like a professional NASCAR driver asking for seat recommendations and all of the riced out Honda Civic owners post what they use from Amazon. The "why won't 8 inches of concrete suffice" is answered by the OP's very topic. 8 inches in typical house foundation form is not comparable in any way to a Class 3 UL rated vault construction. We have worked on vaults and panic rooms in residential construction where our portion of the work was well into the mid six figures. The owners weren't doing that work to thwart smash and grab burglars or protect a thousand dollars worth of jewelry. These types have their reasons (which I wouldn't expect them to fully divulge on a public message board), and suggesting they don't need these levels of security without having any knowledge of what their intended use may be is doing them a great disservice. You'll notice several comments along the lines of "seems overbuilt", but not a single comment from the OP stating exactly what he's using it for. So there's no way to know if it's overbuilt. It may be underbuilt for his use. That said, those giving the bids should have been offering proper guidance. If the OP asked for a bid on a Class 3 unit from a professional security company, that company should have had a conversation with him regarding the use. Should his request have been entirely overkill that company should have offered proper guidance to a suitable solution. Should the customer insist on the overkill that is fine. But should a half price alternative that would suit the needs be available, the customer should be made aware. The OP states he is providing a door, but hasn't stated what that is. Were I the contractor contacted, that would have been my first question as the design of the vault should be commensurate with that of the door. |
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