I’ve carried and trained with the shotgun a lot over my past 25+ in law enforcement for a large agency.

I’ve participated in ammo testing but it’s difficult to find documented information on actual street performance of 00 buck

Anyone have any resources on this..?

IIRC the statistic is just slightly over 1 shot average.

You don't walk away from a load of 00 to the chest.

The only problem is getting all the pellets into a 12" circle or so. That really limits effective range, as you already know.

I used to teach with a guy that served in Vietnam.  

He walked point all 3 tours.  Carried an 870 loaded with OO buck.

He said one day  "never pointed at anything that didn't die"

I’ve seen 12ga used up close twice. Both were 1shot stops. 1 was regular 00buck, the other was federal flight control #1 buck. I know carry ffc #1 buck on patrol, it’s absolutely devastating.

Slug in the chamber, two buckshot behind it, another slug, two more buckshot.  ALL the time.  Use the slug for longer shot. I'm good at 50yds, but i grew up shooting deer with slugs.  If you have to, cycle the slug out, use the buckshot. If you use the same loadout, practice, practice, practice, you'll be able to use the gun to it's best effect.
Buckshot is a killer in close range. depends  on the gun, and ammo. still better than a handgun.

The thing I've never been quite able to reconcile with typical buck loads is the seriously limited effective range. 25yds to keep it all on a man size target, with a good combination.

I can easily blast better patterns with a service pistol while drunk. Which I suppose is probably much better than the typical LEO... I expect the arfcops can best that.

A lot of liability when a LEO reaches for the shotgun, no? Does the department assume the risk?

This is one of those situations where the lack of data is the story.

If there were numerous cases of bad guys taking a load of buck at less than 10 yards and continuing to put up a fight they would be published at least inside of LEO circles.

Some anecdotal reports/experiences here.
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/shotguns-for-home-protection

Just like any time a firearm is used you must be aware of what is beyond your target. You have to be willing to accept that there is ALWAYS liability when rounds go beyond the target. You may be able to slow-fire patterns with a pistol at that distance but as soon as the situation gets amped up the list of people that can do that gets VERY short. It doesn't take too much watching ASP badge cam footage to see that LEOs send a LOT of rounds beyond their intended target with handguns. I don't see how the liability of doing so with a shotgun changes from that.

Once you overcome the block of pellets missing the target either because you accept the fact that it's going to happen and you're aware of the risk or because you know the backdrop behind the target won't endanger a person, a shotgun is a highly valuable tool.

For me, a shotgun is my go-to. My house is laid out in such a way that backdrop of my shots for a bump in the night is of little concern both inside (unless the intruder is already in a bedroom) and outside (nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away). Backdrop of the offender's shots WILL endanger my kid's bedrooms. I aim to put as much lead possible on target as fast as possible to stop the threat. At that moment I DO NOT CARE about my house, my car, or anything else material.

I keep a SA 12 ga with 17 round capacity near my bed. With a handgun, a 12" POA miss means I've missed the vital zone, but with a 12 ga I've still put a pellet or 2 into vitals and a few more into non-vital flesh (which can sometimes send an attacker fleeing). Furthermore, I know many will say #4 Buck is too small, but at inside the house distances I disagree. A 24 pellet load of #4B is like shooting 24 lightweight HV 22 LR rounds simultaneously. They WILL penetrate enough to inflict physical and psychological damage, if only 30% hit the mark that is still a serious show stopper. That being said, once you stretch the distance out a bit it's going to take a heavier pellet like a #1B or #00B to maintain enough velocity to get good penetration.

My cylinder bored shotguns made disappointing "patterns" with buckshot loads until I finally discovered the Federal Flite Control stuff.  What a difference!  

I wish Federal would release the Flite Control wad for reloaders.

Quite frankly, IMO, the vast majority of people just suck at shooting, and can hardly hit the target to begin with. From what I hear from cop friends, as you'd expect, the vast majority of cops are no better. I see far too many lifelong firearms enthusiasts that can't hit shit. I see no shortage of fellas proudly wearing their camp perry shirts, with plenty capable equipment, getting bested myself hungover with mixed brass bulk loads.

I guess for the average person, the shotgun is liable to pattern better at 25yds, particularly under any stress.

I agree with you that #4B is nothing to scoff at. I have no reservations using it, infact depending on the load/gun, there's a good chance I'd select it over 00. [I purposefully ignore #2, #3, and 0 because they are effectively unavailable on the commercial market in 12ga] particularly for pattern density. IME equivalent quality loads maintain overall pattern size, but the standard 27p #4 triples the density. Triple the holes, triple the chance to hit something vital. It also seems #4 loads are usually loaded fairly stout, unlike many 00 loads. I suppose the manufacturers assume you won't be blasting it, just taking a few shots traditionally varmint hunting.

Any buckshot load within range, say 17 yards, for the typical 1"/yd spread, should be a one-shot-drop.

Op if you find credible data, please post it.

Anecdotal of course:

I've known 2 people who were killed with 12 gauge 00, both at very short range (within 5'). Immediate incapacitation as we would expect and ammo is unknown and probably irrelevant at that range.

I know of 3 reliable people (within my extended family) who have used 12 gauge 00, I would estimate 20+ times (the numbers are skewed upward by two who used them in military combat years before the FCW became available, at shorter ranges) with very immediate incapacitation.

The "citizen use" tho much smaller sample size (2) is also very immediate "sack of potatoes, problem solved" drop to the ground and no further aggressive behavior after the 1st shot.

All were run of the mill major American manufactured 00 without Flight Control Wad and no choke (several from a cut down 12" SXS barrel) except for two uses being cylinder bore (20" in both cases) and FCW full power (ie not low recoil LE ammo) at longer range (maybe 50 and 60 yds). One with 2 3/4" and one with 3" 00 FCW, both being Federal shells of course.

ETA: all three people using the shotgun in the examples above were primarily "rifle based" from a young age, firearm enthusiasts, well before putting 12 gauge into use.
None were brought up on bird gun type shooting, all had shot multiple mule deer, antelope & the rare elk before using a shotgun in anger.

From the "for what it's worth files".......

Founding member of the Navy SEAL's James "Patches" Watson has been asked if he thought the then Navy Vietnam shotgun load of #4 buckshot was too small.  He replied...."No one I ever shot was around to complain".   And Watson shot a LOT of people.

In a non-fiction book I read there was an account by a retired cop who described what happened one night on a single man stake out for a armed robber.
The robber hit and as he came out of the store he fired at the cop.
The cop fired all 4 rounds from his shotgun at the running robber, all #00 buckshot.
He was shocked the robber didn't go down instantly and thought something was wrong with the ammo or the gun.
The robber continued to run and collapsed almost a block away, dead.
The autopsy showed that almost EVERY organ in his body was destroyed by the pellets but he still made it almost a block.
Due to the extreme rarity this episode was famous in police circles since no one had ever heard of such a thing.
It's an article of experience among street cops that if you shoot someone with a shotgun you immediately call homicide because they're DRT.

Early last summer I was at a family "thing" and a big city emergency room doctor was there.   He told us about his "clients" and his experiences with treating knife and gun shot cases.
He works at a notorious inner city hospital that's the absolute last place you'd go for normal care, but the first place to go if you've been shot or stabbed because they have so much experience at treating the locals.
His top "frequent flyer" has been hit with 9mm rounds on at least 5 different times, with more then one hit per occasion.
Conversely he said that people hit with .45's seldom survive.

He said that people shot with birdshot almost always lived to walk out of the hospital.
People shot with buckshot, IF they made it in alive, almost never survived.  
If they survived they were in no condition to ever run the streets again.

There was someone here that posted about a new female CO put on tower duty that used a full-choke tower 870 to put down an escaping inmate. I believe it was a single pellet that hit the back of his skull at roughly 100 yards.

Archive is still funky, so can't find it unfortunately.

I just finished reading Holloway’s Raiders. Dallas PD stakeouts with shotguns in the 60s and 70s. Lots of performance.

We didnt have carbines until late in my career so we carried 12 ga when service warrants, working proactive street crimes stuff, and then Auto theft.  Mostly saw big gnarly pits shot with them. Most often a one shot stop while pistols tended to be ineffective, either passing thru without dropping them or the concussion causing them to turn tail.  Just as a sidenote, the pit shoot I was at, deputy and I were looking for the pit that had bitten a lady in her yard that was running around with two other mongrels in a neighborhood.  he cornered the dog in a cul de sac, and the pit charged him. Deputy dropped him with one shot at 15'.  He later told me " damn good thing the first one worked, i just came back from qualifying and I only had the one round."

Id be stoked with 20ga buck and flite control

This is truth! So many people just plain SUCK at shooting. The closest they ever come to real-world amped-up shooting it shoot & move on a range. The better shooters that haven't seen actual combat etc are those that have shot critters, and lots of them, often times moving critters (some, but not all, competitive shooters can also fit in here). Of course real combat/LEO shooting is the best experience but even then many don't get enough of that to become proficient. It is REALLY hard to perfectly recreate a true amped-up situation but still maintain an environment where the shooter can remain self-critical and learn from their mistakes. A real world shootout for your life and the shooter isn't paying close enough attention to what they're doing to know how to improve. Even in a good training environment they aren't truly amped up like their life depends on it.


My hand load buck rounds are all #3 & 00. I made my own multi-pellet buck mold for casting and I already had a .250" ball-nose end-mill on-hand which coincides with #3 buck. But yes, #3 is impossible to find on a shelf. My mold is a 2-sided steel mold, pour one side which yields 12 pellets of 00, then while that solidifies in the mold, flip over and pour the other side which yields 16 #3 pellets. Let those solidify, drop them into water, give the mold a few seconds to cool, then repeat, repeat, repeat! I have a lifetime supply of lead...

I think maybe if people learned how to shoot on a square range... then take some baby steps.

Can you fit mixed shot using 00 & 3? Patterns with handloads?

My Agency is supposed to be getting slugs soon... fingers crossed.

For now I choose between my 14” Benelli M4 and a 12” Centurion Arms with SF Socom can depending on the situation

Both guns are personally owned and qualified through the Dept. Loaded with Dept. issued ammo. Federal FC 00 buck and Fed 55gr Tactical

If we get slugs I plan to keep the gun loaded with buck with a couple slugs on the side and a couple on my vest.

Most of my work is at 20 yards or less if I’m taking the shotgun but slug hits are easy at 50 with 75-100 taking a little extra time.

I don't mix shot sizes, I just load 2 different loads.

Patterns: not too bad considering I'm using standard trap hulls, wads, and 8 petal crimp. If you're accustomed to FFC then go elsewhere. Some more experienced loaders may be able to get those patterns with hand loads but I can't.

I should have specified, I use hand loads for range and critter use, factory loads for self defense use.

I know of a few uses.

Saw a guy who was shot with birdshot at a dispute, he didn’t even need an ambulance ride to go to the hospital.  Distance was supposedly not too far, I didn’t interview him personally though.  

Saw aftermath of a 40 yd shootout, one of the LEO’s there dumped a bunch of 12 gauge 00Buck low recoil at the bad guy.  At that distance there were zero hits from the shotgun (it was also night time).  Suspect was in front of an aluminum skinned cargo trailer- the pellets at that distance only dimpled the aluminum.  Suspect was killed by 2 other LEO’s firing AR’s which had lights on them.  All I really learned here was to stay away from any low recoil ammo, which we did have available to use at that time.  I was the instructor/armorer so I took that option away...

Was told about a shooting where the Oregon State Police supposedly were shooting at a guy with some flavor of buckshot, he was wearing a lot of heavy clothing, and it was apparently not getting the job done in this instance at some distance.  The story was they were going towards slugs as a result, which I think was what finally stopped that bad guy.  My guess is that the guy was just too far away.  

I came real close to touching off a load of 9 pellet 00 buck once at 40 yards at a guy, the whole time I was wondering if any pellets were going to be on target.  We were running our first rifle training the next week too, which would have made me happier.  

We also went to Federal Flight Control about 10 yrs ago.  Makes a huge difference (assuming you aimed well).  That stuff is great.

Other than that, saw more than a few suicides....it always worked for that.  

I taught shotgun use at the academy and some in-service classes, love me some 870, but overall we saw that most people took their issued AR and left the shotgun in the armory.  Last 15 yrs I mainly carried a cut down 870 with breaching loads.  I did carry some slugs and buck in the vehicle just in case though.  

When you are dealing with shotguns, keep in mind that precision and buckshot don’t go together real great.  Also they are harder to run one handed if you get injured.  

All that being said, I have multiple 870’s for hunting, and multiple Police Magnum 870’s as well.  I can run an 870 better than probably 90% of shotgun shooters, so I won’t be giving them up anytime soon.

Forgot one- my dad (Game Warden) was in a gunfight, someone opened up at 100 yds at him from the shore (he was in a boat) with a .22 auto.  He shot back with a 12 gauge riot gun.  

Bad guy- trying to hit bouncing/moving target at night- 0 hits.  Dad- 12 gauge buckshot at 100 yds at night- 0 hits.  Another time where an AR might have been a better gun to have on hand.  All he had for a target were muzzle flashes from the beach.  

He always tells that story with a description that his buckshot pattern at that distance was “as wide as a house”, which is only a slight exaggeration....

Anyone seen tests of the (new?) federal fx2? Appears to be split shot for fishing that’s supposed to break in half in the target.

Seems pretty dumb to me, for use on western bipeds. I could see it working really well on coyote though. Or maybe those tiny southern deer where they top out at 90lbs.

ETA: to tac556’s last, it was probably more dangerous to be standing next to the perp than to be him at that range. At night with a riot gun, I’m not sure slugs would even be truly effective should the shooter simply side step between bursts.

I've posted this elsewhere but it fits in here.

This fall my son had a 205 lb Bear run out at 15 yards.  It was crossing a dirt road  that is about 20 feet wide.   He hit it with 12 gauge 00 buck. First shot killed it instantly.  The dirt road is on the middle of our farm so no he didn't shoot on a real road.

We skinned it out and found 2 lead pellets that penetrated thru its neck, this is what killed it right on the road.    Stopped it dead in its tracks.

He fired 3 more rounds at the bear while it was laying still. I think he was excited. We only found 3 other copper coated pellets in the shoulder of the bear.  All 3 were together just under the skin stopped in the heavy fat layer.

The 4 shells he fired were a mix of federal 3" 9 pellet.  

The kill shot was regular lead pellets, at least 1 of the others was copper coated pellets.  The copper plated did not penetrate very well.  That may have been because of area it hit, heavy front shoulder covered in 1" thick fat layer.

So out of 36 pellets, only 5 hit, at 15 yards?

I understand if the hit count was low on the first shot, with the bear moving, but subsequent shots effectively all missed? Sure he isn’t flinching? Do those loads really pattern that bad?

Why did you/he choose 00 for bear? Seems like a great opportunity for slugs, big bore, or 7mm+ ...

Of those pellets that did hit, they only penetrated <2”, in fat? Im thinking those skipped off the dirt road or you got a bad lot of shells that are powderpuffs. Subcutaneous fat is like butter on every animal I’ve seen.

Here's a video of shotgun use.

I know someone who shot a robber with 4 rounds of plain lead Winchester low recoil 00 buck. Guy lived long enough to be transported to the hospital

While I've been a sworn law enforcement officer for over 42 years, I have no experience with the use of buckshot in a law enforcement setting.  That said, I do have quite a bit of experience in deer hunting. When I was young almost everyone hunted with shotguns and buckshot.  I have skinned dozens of bucks during the years before we switched to rifles.  It was rare not to find numerous healed buckshot wounds in the hide.  There were many dozens of instances of people shooting at deer and the deer escaping. Once we switched to rifles the "kill" rate went up significantly.  I can't remember finding a healed rifle wound in a deer killed later.  We shot a large buck once and skinned and tanned the hide (white deer). It had 16 healed buckshot wounds in it, on all sides. I think this particular deer had been shot several different times with buckshot and kept going.

Likely from low quality shells, wrong choke, lack of knowing pattern, firing through brush, too far distance, etc.

I probably wouldn’t be using buckshot past where I can get a 12-15” pattern. So for most combinations thats 10 yards... these guys shoot too far.

I always hunted with slugs. The first buck I shot had a healed over buckshot wound from three pellets

I did a lot of penetrative testing about a decade ago with buckshot. I used pine 2x4, 2x6, and a mid 1980s crown vic police cruiser door, which at the time was very representative of the auto body construction of the vehicles of the more criminally inclined.

I discovered that full power 00 could be counted on to go through a 2x6, but not much else. 000 would penetrate it, and into a second.
At 40 yards, some 00 would penetrate the car door, some would not. 000 reliably would. At near point blank range, #4 buck would absolutely not penetrate even the first layer of the car door. The car door had many structures within, and I even had it stop a 270gr gold dot soft point from a 7.5" .44 revolver dead in its tracks once, so it was luck of the draw if you got through and through with any round on it.

I ultimately came to the conclusion than buck smaller than 000 had limited hard object performance, and even 000 was far behind 9mm, .45, 5.56, etc.

Think about it. Individual buckshot pellets are pretty diminutive. 53gr, 31cal, soft lead, at ~1200fps. That’s not much. Now put 9 of those cocksuckers in your sternum, and you’re going to have a really bad, but short day. Spread them out, slow them down, and there’s not much wounding potential. As noted, they rely on quantity not quality.

Would you hunt deer with a 31cal round ball at 1200fps? I wouldn’t. That’s a squirrel rifle. But a patched round ball from a rifle is actually accurate on a man at 100yds. Even flightcontrol is having a rough time at 40yds, even though as a technology, it has about doubled the effective range of the scattergun.

I was referring mostly I  my testing to the disparity between bard and soft target performance. For example,  00 buck will penetrate through 14-18" of gel, and through and through, or be trapped in clothing on exit if no bones are hit. 9mm gold dot 124+p performs similarly. However, 9mm gold dot will penetrate 3-400% more pine board, and much more reliably a car door at far further distances due to the greater sectional density and mass.

Indiana required slugs for deer hunting for this reason.

One of the case studies when I went through the academy was an officer shot point blank with a 12ga w/00B. He was wearing a 2A vest and took the blast to the center of his chest. He fell to the ground and the perp stood over him laying on the ground and continued to rack and shoot. One round went between the legs missing while another round missed too. A second perp was there but didn't get involved.

The officer squirmed on his back to get under his cruiser. There he was able to draw and fire a couple rounds off and that scared both perps away.

The officer was back on duty while I was there. One of the guys I went through the academy with rode with him during first year probation. They drove to the place it happened and the whole incident was told again, with the same details presented in the academy.

Buckshot, even reduced recoil ammo, has a tremendous amount of energy.  What it doesn't have is a lot of penetration, as soft lead balls do not penetrate well.

So, if you're close in enough to get the penetration, buckshot rounds are devastating.  You're putting 2000 ft-lbs or more of energy into an animal (human) that's pretty weak and wimpy, compared to say a deer.  So it's a nasty mess.

Step out the distance, and buckshot drops off the penetration, leading to the cases above where at 40 yards or more, it does not work well.  Is that a reason to go to full power (1600 fps) loads instead of reduced recoil (1200 fps) load?  You have to consider the totality of things.  If most of your targets are going to be close in, and if you're a department where you can have small women needing to use the shotgun, then low recoil rounds are the way to go.  In the 70's, lots of guys used to prefer 20 ga shotguns, as for close in work like the NYC Stakeout squad, they were at bad breath range, and 20 ga was plenty powerful, while not having the one and done for a while aspect of a full power 12 ga buckshot round.  

But buckshot rounds don't go through 2a body armor, so if someone is wearing it, they will survive, though have some nasty bruising just from the impact force.

Birdshot, for defensive use, is pitiful, and an old wives tale about "don't wanna shoot through the drywall and kill Jr. in the other room".  OK, will birdshot go through drywall?  No.  Can you punch a hole in drywall?  Yes.  So you are using a round less powerful than a punch.  Not a good choice.

My thoughts and how I go about things:


12 ga is the way to go, not 20 - better ammo and gun selection.
2-3/4" is plenty powerful, and usually gives you an extra round in a tube mag compared to 3".
Birdshot is for the birds.
Slugs are backup rounds for if you only have a shotgun, or need barrier penetration.  I'd have them on the side and load as needed.
Buckshot is the way to go.
00 is better than #4 for the above penetration reasons, and because there's better 00 than #4 as it's a far better seller.  Plus "00 foots the bill most definitely", as the Beastie Boys sang.
000 may be better than 00 in theory, but it's not loaded as much, and doesn't have all the nice buffering, plating, and wad aspects as 00.
8 pellets of 00 often patterns better than 9 rounds, that said, a lot of rounds are 9 pellets.  
You want plated pellets, as the harder copper or such coating prevents the pellets from deforming on each other, and deformed pellets spread out quickly.  
Also want a good wad, like Federal's Flitecontrol or such, to help with the pattern and extend the range that you can deliver a good payload to your target.
I think this is about the optimal shotgun round for defense:

https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/premium-slug-buckshot/vital-shok-buckshot-with-flitecontrol-wad/11-PFC154+00.html

Based on my observations, the pfc15400 does work well. Very hot loads, rather tight patterns.

Le13200 seems to work better in the pattern department. I think the reduced velocity deforms the pellets less and as noted the 8p seem to do better across the board.

At realistic shotgun ranges, it’s a dead anything less than like 300lbs. It probably doesn’t matter much in a pump, but if the low-recoil cycle your semi, it ought to make a noticeable difference in shot to shot time.

I’d use either of them for hunting deer around here in the woods, again as anything in range won’t notice.

Slugs are certainly a new level of destruction.

The shotgun is a powerful weapon, but it’s limited range, capacity, and general inability to suppress focus my interests in rifled firearms. All of which can be quite potent in their own right. Inside 15 yards, it’s still hard to beat the lethality of buckshot per trigger pull.

Wonder how the penetration on Hornady critical defense 00 buck is.... 8 pellets going around 1600 FPS which is a large gain of velocity over other shells

Not law enforcement.  However I seen at least five engagements when a shotgun was deployed/used while serving in the military/DOD.  I 've never seen anyone walk away from a 00 shotgun blast.  Contacts were under 25 meters.  They were all shot twice, one round to the crotch area, the other to the head/face. Twice the people were wear body armor. I can't recall what brand ammo was used, but I think it was Federal (COT purchase).