What's your favorite belt fed caliber and why?

5.56 equates to a smaller, lighter, more controllable firearm. In most cases it is less expensive to purchase and feed than 7.62.

7.62 has unmatched power and entertainment value but the barrier to entry is greater.

There is another answer.  Get both.  ...and by both, I mean an HK23e with a 21e conversion kit (or a reasonable facsimile).

The barrier to entry is in 5.56mm MGs not 308 assuming you are talking about "real" military machine gun designs not toys.

The number of transferable 5.56mm weapons is very limited, basically HK23e(these have opened up due to domestic manufacture), Stoner 63(less than 30), Stoner 63A (around 100), CMG2 (very few), M249/Minimi (reported only 3 transferables). Except for the HK23e, you will be paying 60-300K for transferables of the other types.

As for 308 guns you have a large selection, M60 (in all its various configurations), 1919A4, M37, 1917, Vickers (original conversion kits hard to find though), CMG3, M240 (a few of these around but not many), HK21, HK21e, MG42 (converted to 308), MG34 (also converted), MG1, MG2, MG3, miniguns and many more, I'm sure I missed several ones that governments around the world converted when NATO standardization came into being. You can get into a 308 gun from 15Kand up.

I guess I consider the fightlite MCR to be a viable option for 5.56 beltfed. Its not in use by any military but their latest generation seems to be good quality and reliably.

The AR15/M16 conversions are not real beltfed guns. The barrels are too light and they fire from a closed bolt and usually take 3 hands to do any malfunction clearing. They are toys, granted they can be fun but there is a world of difference between a vetted design that has undergone military use and toys.

Not trying to start a internet argument, but as civilians aren't all MGs just toys?

I have some of both

I shoot the 556 way more than the 762

I think they are easier to shoot, better for "new" shooters and cheaper.

Another 556 option would be the Colt LMG. It’s not a belt fed, but I think it’s a damn fine weapon that can hold its own against most 556 beltfed and it’s a open bolt design.

Yes they are

But quality and history of the toys is sometimes meaningful

The reason I mentioned it actually was your mentioning of the hard hitting 7.62 over 5.56. In a civilian beltfed machine gun cartridge hitting power is really not an issue. Pigs have been taken with beltguns but when you are using a belt then a few extra rounds never hurt anyone but the pig.

I'd rather carry my 9 lb Stoner 63a than any of the 308 beltguns.

I agree though I did not mention it since its not beltfed. I own one and love shooting it.

I've been itching for a belt fed MG for a while now and have been all over the map thinking of which one I want.  I've finally decided on an M16 with a Shrike upper. Even though it's not a tried and true military design, it seems to me like the best bang for the buck.

I thought heavily about getting an HK sear and buying a 23E clone, but after reading the reports of the quality issues with them and the overall expense I decided that a shrike was the best option.

I also looked at the 1919s, but being only able to fire from a tripod and their old fashioned design turned me off.

I'd love an M-60 but they all seem to be selling for around $50k plus which is a bit much for me for a one trick pony MG.

Got a HK sear and M16A1 on form 4 right now... been debating a Fightlite MCR vs a MM23E. Don’t like having to replace the bolt catch on the RR for the MCR. MM23E is pretty badass from all the YouTube videos I’ve watched... but I’d have to sell off my AI AXMC setup just to fund it. Then I realized that it’s nearly UZI money...

the bolt catch is not a big deal IMO. the MCR is light enough that you can shoot it as a beltfed or mag fed, ie you dont have to change uppers all the time.

the hk23e would be better to have, as it built as a beltfed. I would go with BPP vs a MM though.

It's a damn good single trick, particularly set up as an E4 or E6.

Do not buy an mm23e. You'll regret it. Mine is currently back with Otte for the umpteenth time (sent in January), supposedly getting a whole new receiver because of all the issues I've had. And it wasn't easy getting to this point. Otte has been very difficult to deal with.

Also, keep in mind I paid in full in August of 2016 and still don't have a working gun.

The thing with the BPP guns is a remarkable lack of feedback on the web.  90% of the youtube traffic for belt fed HKs is MM23e's. BPP reviews are rare, and of those available, a few are negative.  They may be great guns, but it's hard to tell that from owner feedback.

I've probably talked to more BPP owners than anyone else since I try to track them down to see what they think/get their experience

I've only spoken to 1 other person who had a bad experience like me, but he got a replacment form BPP which runs flawlessly.

I've only ever heard "bad" things form the "I heard grapvine".

I've also been to 2 of the best HK beltfeds guys, they haven't had to fix a BPP gun yet.

There are not 3, but only 1 transferable 249.  I have held it and know who owns it.

I personally prefer 5.56 beltfeds.  

The main reason being that they are just lighter and easier to transport back and forth to the range.   For the most part these are just expensive range toys so whatever is more “enjoyable” shooting old appliances, tannerite, etc. is my preference.  My one 7.62x51 gun is my M60E4 which is one of the more light and mobile 7.62x51 beltfeds out there.

I can pack about twice the 5.56 belt fed ammo into an ammo can vs. 308.  The 5.56 guns are also smaller and lighter in general.  I have both of the two “commonly available” 5.56 beltfeds the Ares Shrike and MM23E (K variant).

I really have no significant complaints about either gun.   I have had my Shrike upper for probably 6 or 7 years now and my MM23E for 2 years give or take.   Both have their pluses and minuses  and neither would be my first choice for taking into some sort of door kicker/combat type scenario.

From a value perspective its my opinion the Shrike represents a better overall value as a range toy.  Shrike uppers can be had for $5000ish and the latest gens have a lot of improvements.    The MM23E is a $15K gun with a year long wait to get it delivered and has more expensive parts and barrels.  Owners of both platforms have advocates and detractors, so its somewhat of a crap shoot in my mind between the two.  My experience with both outfits from a CS perspective is that neither are perfect but I have not had any horror stories either.

The Shrike also weighs significantly less than the 23E (even my lighter shorter K variant) and form factor wise isn’t really much bigger or materially heavier than an M4 carbine, so its easier to transport and shoot offhand.   However, the Shrike is not as controllable off the bipod as the 23E given it sizable weight and roller locked advantages.

From a longevity perspective, I suspect the 23E will last longer being a steel construction receiver.  So if you plan to shoot 100,000s through the gun you may be better served by the 23E as the Shrike probably has a useful receiver lifespan of less than half of that.  Granted the Shrike is 1/3rd the price and parts and barrels are much cheaper, so from a financial perspective it’s probably a wash financially buying 2 or 3 Shrike’s plus spare parts along with $500 barrels vs. one 23E and its more expensive parts and $1000 barrels.  To wear out either platform you will probably burn up multiple barrels and a $500 barrel cost delta adds up quickly as well.

I like both platforms enough that I am considering grabbing another updated Shrike upper and one day adding a full size 23/21E “German Build” to my collection.

Not to get too off topic but I am now running my Shrike with an A5 buffer tube, 308 Tubbs spring and Kynshot/Blitzkrieg.
Shorty barrel on high gas setting, M855 630 RPM
16" barrel on medium gas setting, M855 693 RPM
At those rates of fire, I can easily get single rounds off in full auto and it is a lot smoother than using the Shrike supplied spring and H2 buffer.

One of the reasons I like tinkering with the AR family is that while I've had good look with this hydraulic buffer, who knows what other advancements will come up for buffering and handling recoil that could be used while the HK family is kinda limited in that area.  
However, I still like the HK MP5 the best when it comes to a closed bolt SMG.  I'm trying to get my 9mm Guard to run as smooth as the MP5...getting close but not there yet.

There are a few rewelds.

Yep. I know too....

I'll have to try researching them somehow. I wonder if they're even planning on releasing a .308 21E conversion. I'm definitely more interested in 5.56... but it'd still be nice to have the option lol.

There are no rewelded 249 guns that are transferable. That's a rumor put out by guys trying to sell their 249 with a MAC/M16 serial number.

I suppose 5.56 for me.  I’ve had the pleasure of shooting an MG42 and a PKM as far as 7.62 beltfed are concerned and they’re badass.  I’ve also shot a M249 on a few occasions, the first experience of which drove me hard into NFA firearms.

I had an HK sear, so buying an MM23ek was an easy decision for me.  The process of getting the gun was admittedly a pain in the ass.  But I’ve been really pleased with the gun itself.  It’s run like a swiss watch since I bought it as long as I keep it moderately lubed.  And that’s reall just a precaution at this point, because I had 2 failures to feed when I first received it which I can categorically say at this point was due to not being broken-in.

MM guns aren’t perfect.  The welds could use some work, but are serviceable/purely functional.  They’re just fine if you’re not looking for Wilson Combat level attention to detail.  My front sight is slightly canted to the right.  I haven’t bothered to have this fixed by Mike yet because I use a red dot anyway.  I know MM stuff is 50/50 on this board, but I’ve been basically pleased with mine.  A German parts-kit build would have cost me 3 times what I paid for the MM.

Here’s a vid of my 23ek up against a postsample M249.  Adding some life to the thread.  Can anyone embed this for me, since for some stupid reason non-paying members can’t use all the basic posting code?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBIVSLYnXWA

It is maddening to me that I paid over $13,000 and my mm23e arrived with a canted front sight, feed issues, a warped cage, and crap rear sight that couldn't be zeroed for elevation. The front sight was so glaringly off and yet ignored, followed by excuses from Otte, and still not resolved after multiple trips back to him. The best excuse he had was that it's a machine gun and most people don't aim anyways.

Nearly two years later he finally agreed to replace the receiver because of constant feed issues, the front sight, and a completely out of spec welded top rail. The whole process has been terrible. I have asked for a refund many times, starting from the day it arrived, but he always retorts that he's never had anyone ask him for a refund and refuses.

At least yours runs. Maybe I'll have one that works by 2019.

And don’t get me wrong, that’s completely unacceptable and I’d be pissed too.  To be fair, I was pretty pissed at Mike at one point too because he promised me the gun in 3 months after I paid up front and it took 14 months.  He had an excuse for everything, so I was definitely annoyed.  I’m fairly pleased with the product I received though.  Yes, I’d love it if it looked like it was built by Wilson or Nighthawk for the money spent.  I didn’t even notice the front sight was slightly canted until you or someone else noted that yours was in another thread.

Honestly, my biggest reservation about buying the gun now is wondering what will happen when Mike dies down the line.  From what I hear, most of the other smiths won’t touch his builds to do any work.  And since some of his parts are semi-custom, you can’t just swap a German barrel in or a BPP.  Parts availability and service worry me in the years ahead.

But BPP had a questionable reputation when I placed my order for the MM, and having TSC build one off a parts kit for me for the cost of another HK sear just wasn’t an option.  Not to mention, I got the short gun which is what I really wanted.

I hope yours gets fixed very soon and that when it runs really well, that that starts to remove the bad taste in your mouth about the whole experience.  While you wait, if you’re ever in Jacksonville, you’re always welcome to come by and run a few belts through mine.  I’ll buy lunch and we can talk about the whole experience.

Spartikis, thanks for embedding the video

You and Slippers have me about to pull the trigger on a BPP23E soon. Just a bit worrisome that it seems like nobody's actually bought one from them recently. What work needs to be done to the trigger pack to get it to run it? Make room for a larger ejector? I emailed them recently and was told a simple modification needs to be done... but they can't do it since they're in California.

cut for ejector,
retimed hammer if you dont have one,
21/23 ejector spring as well as a 23/21 hammer spring.

RTG has the correct parts

the hammer spring is a big deal, If you dont have the retimed hammer and long spring, the hammer will beat the trigger pack to death.

Pulled the trigger and ordered a BPP23E. Fingers crossed it arrives in 6 weeks flawlessly. Will the 23E hammer spring be fine for 9mm too? Or is it something that needs to be swapped each time? I’m kinda worried about how difficult it’ll be to install an even stronger hammer spring lol.

It's not bad changing hammer springs. Buy or make a tool to help compress it. Makes it a 30 second change.

You can try the heavier spring with your 9mm hosts, but it will depend on your specific setup. My mp5k-n wouldn't run, but a full size mp5 will be a little more forgiving.

Prefer the 7.62, but realistically .223 simply due to cost.
Basically twice the fun.

@Johnson184
Any update?

Last update from them was about 16 days ago. Carlos at BPP said he thinks he could get it completed later this month. Think I may shoot him another email lol.

Hey Johnson184, have you gotten the gun? If so what do you think?

Is it mounted or am I carrying it?

Have you ever shoulder fired a 240B.. ROFL the muzzle rise!!!

If I have to hump it a long way, give me the M249, if I got a vehicle, give me the 240B. I will say in the prone the 240B is a beast! And way more accurate than I expected.

If we're talking transferable.. well I dunno.

@Johnson184

did you get the gun yet?  I have a deposit on one as well supposed to be done end of Jan early Feb 2019.

Like to hear your feedback!

Good luck to you guys buying MM or BPP 21/23's. I couldn't do it.

I'd like to get a MK48 from FN, with a 5.56 conversion kit so I can "have both".

Anyone know ballpark cost on that stuff?
I wanna say it was like 10k for a MK48 back in 2013

@TaylorWSO

Not like you to be speachless!

Poll fail. No 50.

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Im waiting for more buys with BPP guns to give reports

Yep. Agreed.

Same here

I got my gun in today!  Taking it out this weekend to test fire!

Gun looks pretty good from first glance!

In for range report

Well got a couple hundred rounds through it but it’s consistantly having feed issues ever 3-5 rounds.  It requires you to charge twice to refeed.

Attached File


Also had some issues where it didn’t eject and then smashed empty case into the trunion.

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I will talk to Carlos tomorrow and see what he says.

was the feed problems manually or during a test fire?

1st check the feed mech feed mech, look at it from the side to see if the roller is at a angle/canted

It should NOT be like this photo, Notice how one side is "shorter" the other. This will cause FTF because the bolt cannot hit the back of the round.



slowly try to feed a round and see where it hits on the base of the case. It should be like 1/8" of a inch.

If that's GTG then its prob a fail to eject from a short stroke.

you will need a 75 or 80 degree LP to fix it.

what barrel length?

Where did the rounds eject? like 20' away. If not then the gun is short stroking.

you can PM me if you want so more help.

Damn, ihave an older mm23e that Gerard miller helped produce. Thing runs flawless..

Well so far Carlos with BPP called me on a Sunday to discuss the issue.

I am sending feed mech back for what he thinks is a weak spring in the feed mech. He is gonna toss it on the shop gun and try it out.

We will see how that works when it gets back.