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Posted: 1/16/2022 11:37:16 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 1/16/2022 3:29:19 PM EDT
[#2]
It feels more like an iteration than a new product. Happy to see it available but think I'll stick with my current versions (APC9K and APC9SD).
The stock change reminds me of the Kriss. I felt like they took away a nice folder option when switching to the AR tube. Even with adapters to fold, it isn't as compact/ integrated as the original. I guess I favor new designs over chasing commonality |
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Posted: 1/16/2022 3:45:09 PM EDT
[#3]
No interest on my part, as I prefer the left side charging handle and folding/collapsible stock ability of the APC9, but I think it's good that B&T is offering this as another option for those who prefer the traditional AR style set up.
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Posted: 1/16/2022 9:23:19 PM EDT
[#4]
More info and bigger pics here: https://bt-ag.ch/en/products/bt-firearm-products/spc9/
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Posted: 1/16/2022 11:30:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Gross.
I really wish they would put their chocolate and hookers down then make a delayed action gun. These B&T guns are nicely made turds. Blowback 9mm has one use, open bolt. Otherwise, you are just shooting big HiPoints. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:24:37 PM EDT
[#6]
The B&T reps from Shot have said the SPC has a lot less felt recoil and will be cheaper than the APC.
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:36:10 PM EDT
[#7]
I don’t really see the point in a world where the CMMG RDB exists. You can have delayed blowback and hydraulic buffer in the same size package. I like my APC9k but the main selling point for me there is the size. If it had a buffer tube, I wouldn’t have bought it.
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Posted: 1/22/2022 1:10:45 PM EDT
[#8]
After learning a little bit more about this new offering, it appears to have a standard AR-style charging handle and a reversable left side charging handle. The PCC is still not on my want list right now, but this feature is rare and appealing. I may consider the SD version a year down the road.
With regard to "why" they made this new line, they were apparently responding to LE customer demands. I have to say that B&T does seem to listen to customers, unlike some other manufacturers. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 9:16:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gross. I really wish they would put their chocolate and hookers down then make a delayed action gun. These B&T guns are nicely made turds. Blowback 9mm has one use, open bolt. Otherwise, you are just shooting big HiPoints. Quote HistoryQuoted: Gross. I really wish they would put their chocolate and hookers down then make a delayed action gun. These B&T guns are nicely made turds. Blowback 9mm has one use, open bolt. Otherwise, you are just shooting big HiPoints. Totally agree. I mean maybe not on them being HiPoints but I agree with the rest. They can claim the buffer is as good as a delayed blowback but it just isn't. The cost of theses guns they could do something gas operated like the MPX or some kind of delayed action. In the TFB TV video the rep said the SPC9 was designed by meet a military spec. That's why it has both the side charge handles and the AR-15 style charge handle. They say the spec asked for MP5 features but that buffer they use just isn't the same or as good as the roller delay in the MP5. Quoted:The B&T reps from Shot have said the SPC has a lot less felt recoil and will be cheaper than the APC. It's kind of their job to say the recoil is less. I seriously doubt that it will. Looks to be the same buffer system so I don't see how it can be. Prices on Europtic are the same as APC9 at the moment: https://www.eurooptic.com/search.aspx?keyword=spc9 |
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Posted: 1/23/2022 2:28:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's kind of their job to say the recoil is less. I seriously doubt that it will. Looks to be the same buffer system so I don't see how it can be. I'm sure they are trying to sell people on their new gun, but it doesn't use the same buffer system. The SPC buffer rides against the bolt and doesn't have a separate recoil spring like on the APC. Watch MAC's Youtube video on the disassembly. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 1:42:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure they are trying to sell people on their new gun, but it doesn't use the same buffer system. The SPC buffer rides against the bolt and doesn't have a separate recoil spring like on the APC. Watch MAC's Youtube video on the disassembly. That's a neat video. I should have been more clear when I wrote my first comment. It's the same style of system. It might be differently implemented but it's still a buffer; whether hydraulic, springs or whatever it's not a true delay mechanism and not a gas operated system so I have serious doubts there will be any noticeable change in the felt recoil between the GHM, APC and SPC. At least not in the semi auto version we are going to be able to get out hands on. Maybe it's a huge improvement in full auto but I'll never know. I would love to be wrong. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 11:19:43 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After learning a little bit more about this new offering, it appears to have a standard AR-style charging handle and a reversable left side charging handle. The PCC is still not on my want list right now, but this feature is rare and appealing. I may consider the SD version a year down the road. With regard to "why" they made this new line, they were apparently responding to LE customer demands. I have to say that B&T does seem to listen to customers, unlike some other manufacturers. I respect and appreciate that they are receptive to customer requests. While they aren't necessarily pushing the boundaries of technology, they are constantly coming up with new products which I appreciate too. In terms of recoil, at some point, good enough is good enough. A portion of the PCC world has a recoil fixation like some in the suppressor world have a dB-chasing fixation. At some point you realize it's all a matter of compromises. I'd love it if my APC9k recoiled like an MP5, but given everything else the APC9k brings to the table over the MP5 (or MP5k), I'd still prefer the APC9k. Maybe someday B&T will work a delayed blowback or a gas operated locked action into that package, but until then, just wishful thinking of what could be. In the meantime, guys are still dominating PCC competition with dumb-tech blowbacks. If you can't make it work, it's the Indian, not the arrow. |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 12:31:49 AM EDT
[#13]
I love my APC 9 Pro. I have no reason to buy a SPC 9 in SBR guise over my APC 9 Pro.
They did say they may come out with a 16” version of the SPC 9, and I would buy that for competition shooting. I want to see two things for B&T PCCs: 1. Magpul M3 polymer magazines 2. Mag Lulas |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 3:34:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I respect and appreciate that they are receptive to customer requests. While they aren't necessarily pushing the boundaries of technology, they are constantly coming up with new products which I appreciate too. In terms of recoil, at some point, good enough is good enough. A portion of the PCC world has a recoil fixation like some in the suppressor world have a dB-chasing fixation. At some point you realize it's all a matter of compromises. I'd love it if my APC9k recoiled like an MP5, but given everything else the APC9k brings to the table over the MP5 (or MP5k), I'd still prefer the APC9k. Maybe someday B&T will work a delayed blowback or a gas operated locked action into that package, but until then, just wishful thinking of what could be. In the meantime, guys are still dominating PCC competition with dumb-tech blowbacks. If you can't make it work, it's the Indian, not the arrow. It's less to do with making it work than it is the value proposition. For that kind of money I expect a better system than blowback. I know B&T are well machined and there is that "Made in Switzerland" tax but for $1600 I can get a MP5 Clone or for $2000 a Sig MPX that is gas operated either of which is a better operating mechanism than the B&T so what am I really getting at B&T MSRP of $2400 aside from that Swiss Cross and the B&T logo? The fact that the MP5 clone and MPX have recoil reduction is a bonus. At least for me in terms of performance I shoot an AR9, Ruger PCC or Scorpion equally as well as the B&T APC9 and they all cost less than half the B&T so if all I'm concerned with is performance the extra money of the B&T isn't really worth it to me. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 11:18:16 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's less to do with making it work than it is the value proposition. For that kind of money I expect a better system than blowback. I know B&T are well machined and there is that "Made in Switzerland" tax but for $1600 I can get a MP5 Clone or for $2000 a Sig MPX that is gas operated either of which is a better operating mechanism than the B&T so what am I really getting at B&T MSRP of $2400 aside from that Swiss Cross and the B&T logo? The fact that the MP5 clone and MPX have recoil reduction is a bonus. At least for me in terms of performance I shoot an AR9, Ruger PCC or Scorpion equally as well as the B&T APC9 and they all cost less than half the B&T so if all I'm concerned with is performance the extra money of the B&T isn't really worth it to me. You make valid points. The APC line is definitely over-priced, just like the MSRP on the HK SP5 variants. Both MSRP's are about $400 - $500 too much. B&T does, however, offer a GHM9 at a more reasonable cost, and you are not loosing much in terms of feature/options to the APC9. Despite me having an APC9 Pro, I admit that the GHM9 is the better value. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 11:24:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Why does B&T have 87 versions of a 9mm PDW/PCC?
Serious question. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 2:31:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You make valid points. The APC line is definitely over-priced, just like the MSRP on the HK SP5 variants. Both MSRP's are about $400 - $500 too much. B&T does, however, offer a GHM9 at a more reasonable cost, and you are not loosing much in terms of feature/options to the APC9. Despite me having an APC9 Pro, I admit that the GHM9 is the better value. Quote HistoryQuoted: You make valid points. The APC line is definitely over-priced, just like the MSRP on the HK SP5 variants. Both MSRP's are about $400 - $500 too much. B&T does, however, offer a GHM9 at a more reasonable cost, and you are not loosing much in terms of feature/options to the APC9. Despite me having an APC9 Pro, I admit that the GHM9 is the better value. Totally agree on the GHM9. The GHM9 is IMO the only reasonably priced B&T offering. It sill performs on par with the other cheaper blowback guns (and as much as it might anger some people it performs as well as the APC9) but you can get it at $1300-1400 if you wait for a deal so the swiss tax is more reasonable. If B&T ever came out with a true delayed blowback (roller, cam, whatever system) I'd be happy to pay $2000 for it. Quoted: Why does B&T have 87 versions of a 9mm PDW/PCC? Serious question. Because why innovte when you can just tweak what you already have to meet some military contract? I suspect the SPC contract basicaly said something about needing to take AR stocks because this military didn't want to keep supply of some brand new stock type and required the AR style rear charging handle so the military wouldn't have to change their weapons training at all. So in comes B&T to put a new shirt on the APC9 system so it meets the request. They put a AR buffer tube on it and a AR charge handle. It's clever from a business stand point, why completely redesign the gun when you can just alter it to meet that requirement? It's like when a car company uses the same frame and engine across 5 models of cars. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 3:48:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why does B&T have 87 versions of a 9mm PDW/PCC? Serious question. +1 on the above response. B&T understands that giving Mil/LE (worldwide) what they want is smart, as it results in repeat business and street credit with the civilian market. Also, having the same DNA in their extensive product lines means less R&D costs. B&T seems to have some smart Execs running the company. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 8:15:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1 on the above response. B&T understands that giving Mil/LE (worldwide) what they want is smart, as it results in repeat business and street credit with the civilian market. Also, having the same DNA in their extensive product lines means less R&D costs. B&T seems to have some smart Execs running the company. Yup. I think their buffer system is kind of lame but it does work so why redo it for every military contract. Also the APC, SPC and GHM all use the same lower so from a design stand point they don't have to change that at all and from a production stand point just make the same lower with the same controls no new tooling required. Every part they reuse saves on R&D, tooling etc. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 8:24:29 PM EDT
[#20]
I like it better than the GHM series. GHM is like a block receiver and a block bolt. The SPC seems more refined.
But...that handguard...It's like they got 3 styles colliding at once. The pdw looks the worst. Other ones are alright. The bottom pic rail with mlok and holes? Quad rail would have been cool, or a 3/6/9 mlok. This just looks goofy. But that's just me. |
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Posted: 1/30/2022 11:32:30 PM EDT
[#21]
The rail looks like an old school YHM rail
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Posted: 2/20/2022 2:16:22 PM EDT
[#22]
Just picked one of these up Friday. The hydraulic recoil buffer is a lot bigger than the one in my APC9K. I’m hoping that it equates to a very smooth shooting experience.
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Posted: 2/28/2022 4:18:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why does B&T have 87 versions of a 9mm PDW/PCC? Serious question. They love their buzzguns, and there is much less competition in the 9x19 PDW/SMG/PCC space then there is in the 5.56 rifle space. It's also a lot easier to design and build a 9mm SMG then say a 5.56 Assault Rifle, meaning they can rapidly develop new models. |
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Posted: 2/28/2022 9:33:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Ordered one from the distributor today, should be delivered in a couple days.
I'll post some pictures when it arrives. |
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Posted: 3/3/2022 6:47:54 PM EDT
[#25]
This sexy thing arrived today. B&T SPC9
 
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Posted: 3/3/2022 10:13:01 PM EDT
[#26]
It looks like something that would be in an anime in the sense it looks like a random assortment of parts.
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Posted: 3/3/2022 10:52:26 PM EDT
[#27]
 
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Posted: 3/3/2022 11:08:52 PM EDT
[#28]
I think I like it more than my APC9K. A lot bigger with that buffer though...
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Posted: 4/3/2022 11:01:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Got an SPC9 PDW order in a couple weeks ago.
I ran it pretty hard the other day and decided that the setup below works best for me. Also FYI, the apc9 buttstock is to narrow for the spc9. Installed, it makes it so it's very difficult to collapse and extend. I sent an email to B&T to ask what would work or if they are making a dedicated buttstock for the SPC9. So I registered an sbr and I'm running a mod 1c brace on it  
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Posted: 4/15/2022 8:39:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Well they are making a 16" version:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/04/15/bt-usa-introduces-16-inch-spc9-carbine/ My interest in the whole platform went from nil to kinda interested. I don't know that the "flat shooting" is anything other than marketing speak especially comapred to MPX's gas system but hey other options are alwasy good. |
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Posted: 4/18/2022 10:24:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You make valid points. The APC line is definitely over-priced, just like the MSRP on the HK SP5 variants. Both MSRP's are about $400 - $500 too much. HK sells every single one they make, usually higher than MSRP. That's what's known as 'under priced'. |
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Posted: 4/18/2022 11:29:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Is it really necessary to extend the buffer out of the receiver? Seems like a waste on a clean sheet.
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Posted: 4/19/2022 7:52:50 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it really necessary to extend the buffer out of the receiver? Seems like a waste on a clean sheet. The European unit wanted a mix of ar15 and subgun features. My assumption is that it's extended out for the addition of a buffer tube and ar15 buttstock which also increases the recoil dampening tremendously. It's seriously like shooting a .22 |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 3:11:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The European unit wanted a mix of ar15 and subgun features. My assumption is that it's extended out for the addition of a buffer tube and ar15 buttstock which also increases the recoil dampening tremendously. It's seriously like shooting a .22 I want to believe you but the internet is too full of hyperbole to do so. If I had a dollar for every time I've been told a particular gun was "like shooting a .22" and it wasn't I'd have enough money to buy the APC and find out for myself. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 3:20:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want to believe you but the internet is too full of hyperbole to do so. If I had a dollar for every time I've been told a particular gun was "like shooting a .22" and it wasn't I'd have enough money to buy the APC and find out for myself. I dont know what to tell you, other than it shoots softer than the APC. To me anyways, but everything's subjective. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 9:52:43 AM EDT
[#36]
Some 16" SPC9 are available from the distributor to order.
If anyone wants one, I can get you one for my price to check it out. Send IM if interested. Yes, I'm an 07/02 ffl. B&T, SPC9, Semi-automatic Rifle, Carbine, 9MM, 16" Barrel, Black, Ambidextrous, Front/Rear Flip Sights 30 Rounds, 1 Magazine, Includes Hardcase. Manufacturer B&T Manufacturer Part #BT-500003-SPORT Model SPC9 Action Semi-automatic Type Carbine Caliber 9MM Barrel Length 16" Color Black Hand Ambidextrous Accessories 1 Mag and Hard Case Type of Barrel 1:10 Capacity 30Rd Sights Front/Rear Flip Sights |
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