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Posted: 10/18/2018 1:22:49 PM EDT
I recently started loading for my 44 mag Redhawk. I've done a number of different loads with 240 gr and 300 gr JHP and several powders - Enforcer, #9, HS6, Titegroup. These have ranged from medium with titegroup to fairly stout with #9 and Enforcer.
Last week I had a chance to test some with H110. I started with 23.3 gr with a 240 gr DeepCurl JHP. The first shot about scared the crap out of me. I thought maybe I screwed up the charge, but the case extracted fine. I mean, it didn't fall out, but a normal push on the extractor was all it took. I was shooting indoors and after a few shots the range officer came over and wanted to know what the hell I was shooting. Definite attention grabbers. I also tried 23.6 gr and 23.9 gr (24.0 is max per hodgdon). All extracted fine. Sure, the primers were flattened but that's the case with nearly all my 357 and 44 loads so I don't pay much attention to that. I'm not sure I'd shoot these on a regular basis, but is there any reason to think they are too hot? Once I got used to them they were pretty fun to shoot. |
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[#1]
A whole lot of factors go into chamber pressure.
Bore diameter and leade profile (forcing cone) are big ones. If you see no other issues, then don't worry. H110 in the 44mag is a great powder for full power loads, and the 44mag is supposed to get your attention when it fires. |
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[#2]
24.0 grs H-110, 240 gr JHP is my standard load for my Redhalk. So you7 are fine.
I have gone as high as 25.0 grs during my long range (200 Meters) Sillouette days. I don't load that hot anymore. One advantage of a Redhalk is that if a bullet has 2 cannelures, you can seat to the upper cannelure and gain case capacity/increase powder charge. Work up carefully. Talking about the 300 gr jacketed bullets, and the 310 gr powder coated bullets I cast. My buddies Super Blackhalk won't chamber my long loads, cylinder is too short. Back issue (couple years ago) of Handloader Magazine has loads for 44 Magnum +P. |
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[#3]
Quoted:
24.0 grs H-110, 240 gr JHP is my standard load for my Redhalk. So you7 are fine. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
24.0 grs H-110, 240 gr JHP is my standard load for my Redhalk. So you7 are fine. Back issue (couple years ago) of Handloader Magazine has loads for 44 Magnum +P. |
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[#4]
Quoted:
Thanks for the reassurance. I wasn't able to chrono these. What speed did you get with yours? What barrel length? +P!!? Out of curiosity, do you have an example of what they tested? View Quote I remember reading the article, that's all. Try a search on their website. |
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[#5]
I think your process is right, looking for pressure signs. It is hard on the brass though, and with that pressure level, you might not get a case split as your first sign of problems on multiple reloaded brass. So, I would segregate out your +P brass and make sure you track the number of loadings. I generally mark the headstamp with a purple sharpie to be able to keep track. You're using a Redhawk, so you have zero worries about frame strength or durability with even max published loads.
But, if you liked your load, use 2400 and work up to the Keith max load for 44 Magnum with a 240ish hard cast bullet. Out of a 4" 29, it is impressive, especially at night. I don't generally feel like punishing myself, so I shoot a "light special" like Inspector Callahan recommended. This is generally 18 grains of 2400. |
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[#6]
I recently tried 2400 for the first time in my 357 blackhawk. Never saw so much flame out the side before - even with H110.
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[#7]
Your pressure is fine. As dryflash3 and you both point out your still under a publish max for that bullet weight. The problem is your using H110 and about 20% of that powder charged burned in front of the muzzle in a great ball of muzzle blast/flash. Everyone loved to use H110 in 357 and 44 Magnum and I can't figure out why. It's too slow for most revolvers. If your creating a load for a carbine or dual purpose carbine/revolver than H110 is not a bad choice as it does well in a longer barrel. But in common revolver barrel lengths is just produces more recoil and way more muzzle flash and blast than you want in most cases.
I worked up a 240gr XTP load earlier this summer for my 6.5-inch S&W M29. Charge Weight: 23.5gr H110 gave 1351 fps Charge Weight: 14.0gr Hi-Skor 800-X 1372 fps At nearly half the mass of propellant I got the basically the same velocity, noticeably less recoil and no muzzle flash to speak of. It was much more pleasant to shoot. Now in a carbine the H110 shines. Those same two loads fired in a Rossi M92 16-inch carbine Charge Weight: 23.5gr H110 gave 1708 fps a 357 fps gain Charge Weight: 14.0gr Hi-Skor 800-X 1600 fps only a 228 fps gain At this point I really don't use H110 in pistols any more, it's just too slow in most cases. I save it for 410 shotgun shells and 450 Bushmaster. YMMV |
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[#8]
I have been using 23.5gr 296/H110 with 240gr bonded jacketed flat points. I couldn't group for shit, and I think it is because of the recoil. I will get the gun MagnaPorted before I adjust my loads. it wasn't really painful and I was shooting outdoors. It is probably due to my refusal to install ugly rubber grips. The people close to me asked me what I was shooting because of the blast.
Funny thing is that I bought bullets and boxes from the EE and the reload label inside the box indicated the previous owner was loading 25.0 gr of H110/296. 300grain bullets with appropriate powder drops were much less violent. |
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[#9]
Quoted:
I don't generally feel like punishing myself, so I shoot a "light special" like Inspector Callahan recommended. This is generally 18 grains of 2400. View Quote |
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[#10]
Quoted:
I have been using 23.5gr 296/H110 with 240gr bonded jacketed flat points. I couldn't group for shit, and I think it is because of the recoil. I will get the gun MagnaPorted before I adjust my loads. it wasn't really painful and I was shooting outdoors. It is probably due to my refusal to install ugly rubber grips. The people close to me asked me what I was shooting because of the blast. Funny thing is that I bought bullets and boxes from the EE and the reload label inside the box indicated the previous owner was loading 25.0 gr of H110/296. 300grain bullets with appropriate powder drops were much less violent. View Quote The 300 gr full loads are a bit more, but don't cause me to flinch. I highly recommend getting it done. |
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[#12]
Quoted:
Wheel guns are pretty easy to monitor the load. A. Make sure that the spent case are easy to hand eject out of the cylinder via the ejector. B. take a look at the spent primers. In 44 mag, your hot loads will require mag primers, the cups on the spent primers will show the correct pressure and so long as your spent primers are not flattened all the way to the side of the case primer pocket, your golden. So primer in the middle and the spent case hand cycle out of the cylinder, your good. Mag primer to the right, and even if it the cases hand eject out of the cylinder with no problem via the ejector, your over max working pressures. http://www.massreloading.com/images/flattened.jpg Now the last thing, just because you can get max speeds out of a pistol, does not mean that the bullet is going to shoot it best at those speeds. So work up the load, find out where that bullet type shoots it best during increasing the speeds, and call it good for that speed. View Quote Yep, sticky extraction means load is too hot. Some guns will handle hotter loads than some others. Which is why we test. |
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[#13]
A guy I worked with when I was in my 20's had a Redhawk and we went to the range after work one time. He had charged some 44mag cases so hot the head stamp was almost unreadable after the round was fired. I only fired one round of those loads because I thought the gun was going to fly out of my hands.
I saw him (alive) years later so I suppose those Redhawks can take a hot load over time and not fall apart. If you can read the headstamp after firing you should be fine with your loads |
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[#14]
Quoted:
If you mean .44spl loads, they are quite boring. May as well be shooting a .38spl. Even the .357mag is more impressive than a .44spl. View Quote I just don't see the need for excessive recoil when shooting paper. When I have handgun hunted, I've gone and zeroed with the hot stuff and shoot 50 or so rounds to make sure I'm zeroed. Good graphic and explanation, Dano. |
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[#17]
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[#18]
phdog, all the spent primers you show, have the ammo within working pressures.
As for max loads in the data, remember that that is for the components listed in the data, and more so to the COAL they show with those components since it for the give case volume amount under bullet set. By longer loading than the given COAL, your increasing the working volume of the case under bullet set, which allows you to increase what will be max charge. But to back it up, can pretty much tell when you are going over pressure with a wheel gun, since the spent cases will be hard to eject to being with. Looking at the spent primers next in the cases, just confirms such when the sides of the primer cup have pressure flowed all the way to the sides of the primer channel in the case. |
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[#19]
"with H110. I started with 23.3 gr with a 240 gr DeepCurl JHP. "
Not to hot, but near maximum. Primers look ok. I find H110/W296 to produce pressure spikes when just adding 1/2 gr of powder when near maximum, using a 250 gr cast bullet. WLP. (23.5 to 24.0 grs.) I now load no hotter then 23 gr for long brass life and less damage to a M29-2 S&W . |
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[#20]
Quoted:
"with H110. I started with 23.3 gr with a 240 gr DeepCurl JHP. " Not to hot, but near maximum. Primers look ok. I find H110/W296 to produce pressure spikes when just adding 1/2 gr of powder when near maximum, using a 250 gr cast bullet. WLP. (23.5 to 24.0 grs.) I now load no hotter then 23 gr for long brass life and less damage to a M29-2 S&W . View Quote The main reason I was looking for feedback is that my near MIN loads with H110 FELT a lot hotter than near max loads of Enforcer and OVER (depending on the data source) max loads of AA#9. I didn't see any over pressure signs so shot them up to the 23.9 gr loads, but was curious if H110 loads were that much different from other 44 mag loads since I didn't see that much difference with my .357 loads. One other interesting observation. With my .357 loads with H110 I tended to see a pretty good fireball. With these 44 mag loads I didn't see much flame at all. Maybe due to crimping, which I still haven't fully figured out. |
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[#21]
H110/296 (they are the same powder, hence St marks #296), does not do well in 357 until you step up to a much heaver bullet over that of the 157gr type bullets. Its just that the powder burns too slow for that light of a bullet, and will find that you can get faster speeds in 357 with powders that have a slightly faster burn rate instead. So for say a 357 mag, 157 jacket bullet, will find that you achieve the highest speed from say a 6" barrel using something in the #7 burn range isntead. Yes, #9 powder shows a increase of 6 FPS, that is requiring an addition 3 grs of powder.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WesternLoadGuide1-2016_Web-1.pdf In 44 mag, 240gr ~ 290gr, the H110/296 is an ideal burn speed, and why it pretty much the speed king for that caliber/bullet weight instead. The downside through, is H110-296 needs at least 80% case volume fill under bullet set to maintain a reliable ignition, and the powder will produce it lowest SD right at max pressures. So H110/296 is pretty much at go for max speeds/pressure kind of powder, and if your looking for a powder that has a wider range of pressure use/ not so sensitive, then use AA #9 or 2400 instead. As for if going to a 300gr bullet or heaver, then you looking for a slightly slower burning powder instead. Since I bring up St marks powder, 300-mp is produced by St mark as well, and has a burn speed of #297 instead. Hence AA#9 has a burn speed close to St mark #295. H-110/296 has a burn speed of #296 (since that is what the powders are, just sold under different labling). Since Alliant could not get in on the band wagon to sell #296 powder under their own branding from SMP (Saint Marks Powder), they pick up one of the St marks #297 derivative powders, and 300-mp has the burn rate of #297. __________________________________________ As for why Hodgdon and Olin/Winchester both selling the same SMP #296, before Olin starting selling powders to the public/reloaders, Hodgdon went to Olin to buy up surplus powders to get the company started, and at the time was a great deal of #296 surplus powder from 30 carbine mil loads that was available. When olin got into the market of selling canister powders to the public/reloaders later, since they owned the St mark plant at the time that was producing the powder, was able to offer the #296 under it own branding since it was not a breach of contract with Hodgdon contract. GD bought the St mark plant some time ago (needed for the LC plant contract when they took over, since st mark plant is the only one making "Ball"/sperical powder in the states), and since olin/wichester type powder licensing where up for sale at the same time the plant was sold (which General Dynamics/ATK did not want since they focus on the goverment supply side only), Hodgdon bought up the Winchester powder licensing rights instead. As for why I bring this up, both the H110 and Win 296 powders are both the same powder, sold by the same company now, and when shopping for such, just buy the one that the least expensive of the two isntead. For the most part, will be the H110, since Hodgdon adds a small charge to the win 296 branding of the powder, to pay for the additional licensing Fee to selll the powder in the Win labeling isntead. Note: not a hard fast rule, since price is really dictated by the final shop selling the powder in the end, and have seen win 296, priced less expensive then H110 in some shops isntead. |
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[#22]
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[#23]
Quoted:
30-31.5grs of H110 over a 180gr JHP is even more flash and blast https://i.imgur.com/WX4wS3F.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7QF8upm.png https://i.imgur.com/a0nZRcx.png View Quote |
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[#24]
I was loading full power loads for my 629 using 12.5 grains of unique (iirc - not exactly sure right now) with 240 grain jhp’s.
Started having problems “pulling the trigger” and had the gun lock up most of the time. Really weird thing was if I pulled the cylinder release REARWARD, I could cock the hammer. I ended up sending it back to S&W and they had to replace the yoke and a bunch of other stuff. I booger’s the gun up but good. S&W customers service was incredible - they fixed it free if charge in less than a week for what was obviously user error. Funny thing is I remember them being stout flamethrower loads but no signs of serious overpressure ( I might not have been looking too hard for it tho.... |
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[#25]
Quoted:
I was loading full power loads for my 629 using 12.5 grains of unique (iirc - not exactly sure right now) with 240 grain jhp’s. View Quote So at 12.5 grains of unique behind a 240 jacket bullet, your not really pushing anywhere close to max speeds, but well over the working pressure of the round to put undue stress on the parts that way instead. http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=240&shellid=33&bulletid=57 Note, in the above data, the powder listed are by burn rate, and the slower the powder burns, the more of it you can use to increase the speed of the round, while the ammo's working pressure is not going over pressure. As for the 629, its no where near at strong as the Ruger action, so using data at full speeds with the correct slower burning power, limit the bullet weight to 240gr max. Bullets heaver this this, will really decrease the time before the 629 will need to be sent back in to be rebuilt. As for the strongest action on the market for 300gr+ bullets at full speeds with the correct slow burning powder fr 44 mag, it was the Dan Wesson M44 with dual lock up. |
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[#26]
Quoted:
As for the strongest action on the market for 300gr+ bullets at full speeds with the correct slow burning powder fr 44 mag, it was the Dan Wesson M44 with dual lock up. View Quote I've been going through a lot of 300mp for 410 skeet loads. I might have to give it a try in the supermags and the 44 Mag. I think it could do well through my 8" barrels. I don't think it will be great from the 4" ones. |
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[#27]
St marks #296 and #297 are good powders for 44 mag with 240gr bullets or slightly heavier, but in 357 with a 157gr bullet, bullet is moving too fast/not enough weight to it to take advantage of power that is burning this slow for even a 357 mag with 8" barrel.
Now in a rifle with 16" barrel in 357 with a 157gr bullet, hell yes, since you have enough barrel to take advantage of the slower burn time isntead. In 410, I hit 1350FPS with either 296/H110, or 300mp (#297) through 30" tubes, and one power really does not top the other since both require about the same amount of powder volume to hit the same speeds. Here, your dealing with much less working pressures, plus you do have the limited room in the stack height to push the shell any faster instead. Note, I'm loading on PW's, so the sizer fully contains the hull sides during sizing, does allow me to use a touch more powder, and not have the sides of the hull budge out during crimping if loading on say a Mec. As for if you loading at less than 1300fps, then the 300-mp is not the ideal powder, and your better off with the slightly faster burning 296/H110 that will have lower SD's instead. |
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[#28]
I've been getting 1325 with 300mp. Hulls seem to be in a little better shape than with 296/H110.
Any info on 300mp being 297? I thought alliant said it wasn't, that 297 has a flash suppressant and 300mp does not, along with a few other differences If I can get good all around performance with 180s and 190s in 357 max and 300-325s in 445 supermag, I plan on using up most of my 296 and using 300mp for all. I have other powders for the lighter bullets |
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[#29]
There are a couple different type ST marks #297 powders (flash suppressor or not), all though the 297 powder all have the same burn speeds, Alliant has admitted that although the powder is not the standard WC 297 formula with flash suppression, but still St marks powder and does have the #297 burn speed ( slightly slower than WC 296).
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=259513 |
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[#30]
Quoted:
A whole lot of factors go into chamber pressure. Bore diameter and leade profile (forcing cone) are big ones. If you see no other issues, then don't worry. H110 in the 44mag is a great powder for full power loads, and the 44mag is supposed to get your attention when it fires. View Quote I used it in a Wildey .45 Win Mag. The flash from both the gas piston and the muzzle really lit up the range. And the noise was horrendous if I was against the range wall on either outside lane. |
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[#31]
Quoted:
24gr H110/win296 with a speer deep curl/gold dot is my standard deer hunting load. Welcome to magnum shooting. It's normal to run everyone off an indoor range with 44 H110 loads. 30-31.5grs of H110 over a 180gr JHP is even more flash and blast https://i.imgur.com/WX4wS3F.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7QF8upm.png https://i.imgur.com/a0nZRcx.png View Quote |
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[#32]
Quoted: 24.0 grains 2400 under a 180 does it for me! I'll have to try some warmish H110 loads. I just don't care for it though. Too picky for me and doesn't seem to meter as well. View Quote |
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[#33]
I have some 296 loads that are 24.7gr with a 240 jhp.
No pressure signs in my Redhawk, but they are not pleasant to shoot |
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[#34]
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[#35]
Ditto, big fan of Universal powder for 44 mag med speed pinking loads, since I burn it by the 8lb jugs in 20 and 28 gauge for skeet to start with.
As for full loads with H110-296 via long loading so you can gain some speed without going over pressure (remember, this powder will have it lowest SD at max pressures), they are pretty much brutal to shoot no matter the rig. In pistol, lets just say your not going to make a day of it at the range with such loads, since hands and wrists are going to be ringing in pretty much the first half hour. In a rifle at the bench like the lighter lever guns, 10 min in and the butt stock will be trying to chew your shoulder apart instead. So full loads are good for two's and few's to get ready for hunting season, but for a day at the range having fun shooting hundreds of rounds, go with a med load using something in the unique or universal instead. Both of these powders are bulkier powders, so even for med speed loads, you get a good case fill under bullet set. |
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