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Posted: 5/7/2018 1:48:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2018 1:55:29 PM EDT by Klaustrophobia]
I have zero experience with NV, never even seen one in person. I've already read just about everything on TVNC's site and called them up and talked for a bit. Gave me a lot of good info and stuff to think about, but still have a bit of a crucial decision I can't make.

Known parameters:
Film-less White phosphor
Binocular (capable, not opposed to going monocular and adding another later)
In all likelihood a Crye nightcap for the headgear. Ballistic helmet to be added down the road. That will probably be a whole other crisis and thread. Along with the IR laser/illuminator (going to go with DBAL-PL for immediate use).

Uses:
Ultimately it's job is to be a SHTF tool. But practically speaking, it'll be mostly to fool around with. Nighttime strolls looking out over the ocean, stargazing, spying on the neighbors etc. If I could find a place to do it, wouldn't mind trying a little night driving. I don't hunt, probably never will (I'm not interested in killing living things for shits and giggles, and a little to squeamish to properly make use of a kill). Also don't have a lot of time to spend outdoors camping/hiking and whatnot (though I would like to, night hiking with NODs sounds like fun to me). Depth perception of a binocular system is probably my biggest desire. That said, I like to leave my options open, and would like to have capabilities like single-eye, weapon mounting, or clip-on accessories. Thermal fusion would be a long-term goal. I will eventually do some "ops" stuff and go to some NVG tactical training, but that will be down the road a ways.

Ultimate goal:
To get the most "do-it-all" type system possible, to the extent I'm not losing significant benefits of something more specialized. Desirable to minimize the number of things. Buy once/cry once and all of that. I get that it might make sense to have one bino and a dedicated mono eventually, but I don't want to end up with "this is my photography unit, this is my stargazing unit, this is my driving unit, this is my operating operationally unit...." etc.

Budget:
Not really a factor, willing to pay what it costs to get what I want/need. I've worked a fuckload of overtime the past 4 years. That said, not looking to spend money unnecessarily or buy the most expensive shit just because. If a $1000 unit does 90% of what the $2500 does, I'll take the $1k. For example I've seen people rave about the MAWLs here, but at least on paper I'm not seeing the reason behind the huge price jump from say a DBAL. I'm a pretty frugal person by nature, which is why I stress so much about large purchases like this.

With these fixed parameters and the help of Vic, it seems the choice is between the Sentinel, DTNVG, or pair of PVS-14s and a bridge.
Pros/cons as I understand them:
Sentinel - Lightest, remote battery pack capable. Personal recommendation of Vic. Not capable of single-eye use.
DTNVG - Capability to swivel one eye up to do the one NV, one night-adapted thing. (The actual practicality/usefulness of this strategy I do not know, but it makes sense to my uninitiated brain). Lighter than dual PVS-14s.
PVS-14s - These have most of that "do it all" ability. Most accessories like camera adapters, thermals, etc. seem to be designed around 14's. The color wheel thing has my interest as a long-term stretch goal (just because I think it would be absolutely boss to see full-ish color through NVGs, not any actual foreseen 'need'). Could be weapon mounted, split off and worn as a monocular/donated to a battle buddy, etc. Not that I particularly plan to use it weapon-mounted, but again, options. I did have the forethought to go with the NV capable EOtech I just bought. Could explore one NV one thermal later.

So what am I missing, or maybe over-evaluating? This is where my problem lies. Don't know if I'm splitting hairs or missing something big. Does a dedicated binocular setup offer something substantial over dual 14's? Is the Sentinel or DTNVG capable of more of the stuff I'm crediting the 14s for that I don't realize? How big of a deal is the one eye/two eye thing? Can someone who operates either (or both) argue for/against it?
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 2:56:29 PM EDT
I'm just going to share a small bit of personal experience having used and owned a monocular and binocular.

PVS14's are very versatile in that, you can better use them in an urban environment (one eye exposed, quickly adjust), and overall it's a lighter setup. Aside from the cost difference versus binoculars, that's where the fund ends.

Binoculars; ever since I stepped up to duals, I find it almost impossible to go back. The added depth perception is what I found to be the biggest reason to get into duals. I find it much easier to perform tasks whether its everyday stuff around the house, and as much as driving, or shooting on the move. The biggest downfall of course would be in an urban environment where you may be exposed to white light. My personal setup consists of a Mod3 Bravo with ANVIS9 lenses, and I love the fact that this setup can be broken up into mono's.

If you're looking to stick with strictly bino's, I would probably opt for the DTNVG's. It's a really nice feature to be able to swing either NOD sideways versus having to flip up my bino's to see outside my NOD's.
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 5:22:30 PM EDT
I love the ability to have the ability to give a monacke to another person. So i run dual 14’s. I’m going to get that mount that allows you to swing them up and move them separately.

So I’d recommend dual 14’s or a mod3 setup if you’re concerned about weight. Sometime down the road I’ll move to a mod3 but I’m happy now.

And I agree, it’s hard to justify a $2500 MAWL vs a $1000 dbal d2. If I was in high speed situations? MAWL all day long. But I’m not so it would just be cool points for me. Eventually I’ll snag one (or an a4).
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 6:14:02 PM EDT
I would add that the Sentinels are actually heavier than the DTNVGs (20.8oz vs 18.8oz, respectively), but are more durable. MOD 3 would weigh in at about 22oz and Dual PVS-14s would put you over 25oz. I've used some and tried all of them--the difference in weight is noticeable, especially over the course of a shooting class or something.

Kwikvette is right, once you go dual, it's hard to go back. So if you decide to go dual then you have to decide what to prioritize: Durability (Sentinels), Light weight (DTNVGs, PVS-31s, etc.), Modular ability to split into two monos (MOD 3, dual PVS-14s).

For me the choice came down to MOD 3s or DTNVGs--I went with DTNVGs and weight was one big reason why. Only duals lighter than the DTNVGs are PVS-31s or Mini B's--which also cost way more. The DTNVG's ability to flip up one side to check your environment is nice, as is the ability to fold both tubes back for better weight balance (that too is noticeable, especially over time). For my use, I'd be exclusively using the NVDs 90% of the time, so the modularity of the MOD 3s were trumped by the lightness and overall better user experience of the DTNVGs.

Sadly there is no universally-accepted, one-size-fits-all NVD setup--they all have pros and cons. Maybe if they made DTNVG's that can split into dual monos, hahah...
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 7:21:10 PM EDT
Thanks for the input so far everyone. I overlooked the MOD3. That might be the new front-runner. I think I can live with a little extra weight for the much increased versatility and ultimate cost savings not having to get a standalone monocular down the road. I can't see much reason to go dual 14's instead of a MOD3 if I decide the separability thing is sufficiently important, given the weight and simplicity benefit.

I noticed that about the Sentinel/DTNVG weight after I posted. I thought Vic had said the Sentinel was the lightest, must have misheard/misunderstood. The PVS-31 looks pretty incredible. Is there a civilian version of it available?

Given I had the weights backward, I would lean more toward the DTNVG now over the Sentinel. The remote battery pack seems pretty cool, but I think the more moveable optics wins out there. Unless the ruggedness is a big deal. The DTNVG's are super fragile, right? I don't foresee doing any hard-charging stuff with them, but I have been known to be clumsy at times.
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 8:21:42 PM EDT
I run a -14 mono, my buddy runs -31a (current GI issue dual tube for SF), which I occasionally get to run.

If I had the funds, and was just getting into it, I'd get Vic to hook me up with the Sentinel's. There is a huge difference between the dedicated binos and the cobbled together monos. Dedicated binos are actually much smaller, lighter, and stick out much less from your face. The difference is amazing.

I really don't know of anyone, outside of this forum that talks about having binos that flip up individually, can share with a buddy, etc. I'm sure there are good reasons for all that, but at the end of the day, if you have the opportunity to buy state of the art binos, versus hybrid systems, there's no question, IMHO.

And yes, the helmet and LAM are a whole 'nother issue, which actually complete the system.
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 10:41:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2018 10:46:06 PM EDT by TNVC_Augee]
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 11:07:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
I noticed that about the Sentinel/DTNVG weight after I posted. I thought Vic had said the Sentinel was the lightest, must have misheard/misunderstood. The PVS-31 looks pretty incredible. Is there a civilian version of it available?

Given I had the weights backward, I would lean more toward the DTNVG now over the Sentinel. The remote battery pack seems pretty cool, but I think the more moveable optics wins out there. Unless the ruggedness is a big deal. The DTNVG's are super fragile, right? I don't foresee doing any hard-charging stuff with them, but I have been known to be clumsy at times.
View Quote
PVS-31s are technically sold only to LE and Mil right now. But they can be bought from some sources including the secondary market, starting at around $13k (depending on tube specs). The civilian versions are essentially the modern duals like the DTNVG and Mini B.

A remote battery pack is nice if you need really long run times (like for long duration military operations) and can transfer a tiny bit of weight from a battery up front to a bigger battery out back as counterweight. For the vast majority of non-military users, a remote battery pack is not necessary for the DTNVG as it's battery life is listed at about 25-30 hours from a single CR123, plus it's already very light.

According to a couple of the guys at TNVC told me they have seen hardly any DTNVGs come back broken. Despite how light it is the DTNVG is definitely not fragile. That said, Sentinels are on a whole other level of durability compared to all the other duals out there. They are renowned for their bomb proof construction, have many proponents on this forum (like Vic and Sam of TNVC) and in my limited use of them they seemed super solid. So if you tend to break your stuff often, you can't go wrong with Sentinels. Though they may not be as light or versatile as other options, they are built like tanks.
Link Posted: 5/7/2018 11:14:29 PM EDT
Whoops, missed Augee's post before I replied LOL! You would do well to pay close attention to his advice--he is the guru!
Link Posted: 5/8/2018 2:25:21 AM EDT
Augee, you should really try to be less vague in your posts. It’s hard to get any information out of them.
Link Posted: 5/8/2018 2:53:42 AM EDT
Definitely take heed to TNVC's reps. They know their stuff, obviously. Hopefully you will get all the right stuff the first time around.

I originally had, well still have but it's being used solely for a buddy setup, the OMNI IIIV PVS-14 from TNVC and an i2. The issue of needing an additional light source came up immediately upon first use, so the i2 was traded in for an A3. VIS / IR lasers are slaved, decent and adjustable IR illuminator, it was big and blocky, but more importantly tall. I could barely see the tip of my BUIS if need be. It served me well by itself, but didn't fit my setup. It was traded in for the ATPIAL shortly after, and overall I have been satisfied with it. IR laser is good, IR illuminator is somewhat lacking and cannot focus the beam, but it's light and sits very low on the rail, which is great.

In the mean time I used the -14's for a bit. They took time to get used to, a term I use loosely. Depth perception was lacking. I could get the job done, but I was having to be much more observant of obstacles, doorways, anything on the ground, and still having to trust my gut on my footsteps and movements. I didn't like this. YMMV but it was like a 80/20 split between shooting and focusing on targets, and focusing on obstacles and movement. I did some browsing and started looking into goggles. I spent a lengthy amount of time on the phone with Sam, I believe, from TNVC and we sorted it all out, basically the way he did above. Coming from using a -14 setup, I knew after getting goggles, I'd probably never go back, which is the general consensus, so a setup like the MOD3 or PVS-15 was not advantageous for me. I like rugged stuff. I don't mistreat my equipment, but I am not afraid to use it hard, which is why I ended up with Sentinels. I now have great depth perception and can focus almost entirely on the target. I don't have to think about where I'm stepping or take a second glance to see approximately how far away that chair is. I just take one look and know. Weight has not been an issue, and they're built like a tank. That's the first thing I said when I picked them up for the first time. It's something you can just tell by the feel. I think I'd have to put them in a gallon of tanerite to destroy them beyond repair. I would recommend them to anybody considering goggles.

The rest of the conversation was about green thin-filmed vs white phosphor. I am so glad I chose white phosphor. Yes, more money, but everything is brighter and, for me, much more clear. Less external light is needed, and I can see things in total pitch black with my Sentinels that I would never see with my green -14's. Would spend the extra cash again without question.

Finally, keep in mind, I am no operator. I'm just a young enthusiast who hunts coyotes and hogs at night and does some night plinking with friends, and also hopes to take some night courses soon - looking at you, TNVC. BUT, if I had to do it all over again, I would worry less about the money spent, because you're gonna have to spend money regardless, and be more concerned about making the first purchase the last one.
Link Posted: 5/8/2018 12:54:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FullAutoHound:
Augee, you should really try to be less vague in your posts. It’s hard to get any information out of them.
View Quote
man - i haven't been back to NVG forum in a while. When did Augee become TNVC_Augee?



Apologies OP - I haven't nothing to add that the other guys haven't already addressed. I'm just running a simple TNVC WP PVS14. I've had nothing but good experiences with it so far since I purchased it.
Link Posted: 5/8/2018 2:24:25 PM EDT
Sorry to highjack...but since I have 2 PVS-14s of about equal spec (both from TNVC) would it be possible to use the tubes and put them into Sentinels or some other bino set-up? Would it even be cost affective? I'd probably keep the 14 housings, probably for a high spec WP tube if I could find the right spec...
Link Posted: 5/9/2018 5:07:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2018 6:09:00 PM EDT by sbye]
Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
I have zero experience with NV, never even seen one in person. I've already read just about everything on TVNC's site and called them up and talked for a bit. Gave me a lot of good info and stuff to think about, but still have a bit of a crucial decision I can't make.

Known parameters:
Film-less White phosphor
Binocular (capable, not opposed to going monocular and adding another later)
In all likelihood a Crye nightcap for the headgear. Ballistic helmet to be added down the road. That will probably be a whole other crisis and thread. Along with the IR laser/illuminator (going to go with DBAL-PL for immediate use).

If you can afford filmless WP go for it. Also be aware that it is not a giant leap from thin-film. Take Augee's advice and try to get some time behind NV.

If you get binos I would skip the Crye Nightcap and get a bump helmet for a couple hundred more. I think the Crye is great for a PVS-14, but I prefer a bump for binos


Uses:
Ultimately it's job is to be a SHTF tool. But practically speaking, it'll be mostly to fool around with. Nighttime strolls looking out over the ocean, stargazing, spying on the neighbors etc. If I could find a place to do it, wouldn't mind trying a little night driving. I don't hunt, probably never will (I'm not interested in killing living things for shits and giggles, and a little to squeamish to properly make use of a kill). Also don't have a lot of time to spend outdoors camping/hiking and whatnot (though I would like to, night hiking with NODs sounds like fun to me). Depth perception of a binocular system is probably my biggest desire. That said, I like to leave my options open, and would like to have capabilities like single-eye, weapon mounting, or clip-on accessories. Thermal fusion would be a long-term goal. I will eventually do some "ops" stuff and go to some NVG tactical training, but that will be down the road a ways.

I personally would never weapon mount NV that is meant to be helmet mounted. They are not made to handle recoil. While they may be fine on a 5.56, why risk it with something that cost a few grand? Get a NV capable optic and IR/Laser Illuminator, that will be sufficient.

Ultimate goal:
To get the most "do-it-all" type system possible, to the extent I'm not losing significant benefits of something more specialized. Desirable to minimize the number of things. Buy once/cry once and all of that. I get that it might make sense to have one bino and a dedicated mono eventually, but I don't want to end up with "this is my photography unit, this is my stargazing unit, this is my driving unit, this is my operating operationally unit...." etc.

One thing I will mention... The hardest part about night vision is finding other people to shoot with & places to shoot. So you might want to consider a loaner set up. Or get better friends than me that aren't too cheap to buy their own lol. Because of this a Mod 3 might be a good option, but if you're like me you won't give up the binos and will have to buy something else as a back up/loaner.

Budget:
Not really a factor, willing to pay what it costs to get what I want/need. I've worked a fuckload of overtime the past 4 years. That said, not looking to spend money unnecessarily or buy the most expensive shit just because. If a $1000 unit does 90% of what the $2500 does, I'll take the $1k. For example I've seen people rave about the MAWLs here, but at least on paper I'm not seeing the reason behind the huge price jump from say a DBAL. I'm a pretty frugal person by nature, which is why I stress so much about large purchases like this.
The only bad thing I have heard about the MAWL (besides price) is changing batteries. Everything else has been good. Unfortunately, I have never used one. That being said, I wouldn't spend that much money on one. I would rather get two ATPIAL-C's.

With these fixed parameters and the help of Vic, it seems the choice is between the Sentinel, DTNVG, or pair of PVS-14s and a bridge.
Pros/cons as I understand them:
Sentinel - Lightest, remote battery pack capable. Personal recommendation of Vic. Not capable of single-eye use.
DTNVG - Capability to swivel one eye up to do the one NV, one night-adapted thing. (The actual practicality/usefulness of this strategy I do not know, but it makes sense to my uninitiated brain). Lighter than dual PVS-14s.
PVS-14s - These have most of that "do it all" ability. Most accessories like camera adapters, thermals, etc. seem to be designed around 14's. The color wheel thing has my interest as a long-term stretch goal (just because I think it would be absolutely boss to see full-ish color through NVGs, not any actual foreseen 'need'). Could be weapon mounted, split off and worn as a monocular/donated to a battle buddy, etc. Not that I particularly plan to use it weapon-mounted, but again, options. I did have the forethought to go with the NV capable EOtech I just bought. Could explore one NV one thermal later.

I have the Sentinels and love them. Haven't had a chance to use the DTNVG, but they look awesome. I don't like how the DTNVG's don't have a spot to attach bungees to & they also do not have set stops for swinging the pods back down.
As for the dual PVS-14's, I would not recommend it. If you want the ability to split them go with the Mod 3.


So what am I missing, or maybe over-evaluating? This is where my problem lies. Don't know if I'm splitting hairs or missing something big. Does a dedicated binocular setup offer something substantial over dual 14's? Is the Sentinel or DTNVG capable of more of the stuff I'm crediting the 14s for that I don't realize? How big of a deal is the one eye/two eye thing? Can someone who operates either (or both) argue for/against it?

Most people prefer binos. The advantage to the PVS-14 is the size/weight, but mainly having one eye adjusted to the dark. Based on your uses I think binos would give you the most satisfaction. I have had dual 14's in the past. They work, but a bino setup is way better. You cannot collimate the 14's and depending on the mount they can shift slightly during use. This will give you a cross eyed feeling and can cause headaches.

Here is a good video that compares binos to monos:

Link Posted: 5/9/2018 7:55:09 PM EDT
Dual 14s is nice if you already have one that you like and don’t want to take the hit selling it used. Beyond that, the dedicated systems are nicer in most every way.

I would question the jack of all trades mentality a little. Will you really weapon mount it? Mounted behind a red dot isn’t much different than helmet mounted with a laser. You can put it behind a day scope, but you’ll need to mount the day scope pretty far forward to a point you can’t easily use it as a day scope. Not that it’s terrible to do and if you have a spare rifle, it works. But it’s not as universal adding it to a rifle that’s meant for the day as well. And if you aren’t putting it behind magnification, you might as well keep it on your head.

As for a loaner, that too sounds better than it typically is. I can’t find people I trust to shoot or even hike at night. Too many other commitments and often not willing to head out when most are going to bed. Not that it will never happen, but it’s unlikely for most to be an every night thing. So again, getting the set that works best for you seems better than the set that’s easier to remove and use as a loaner.

I don’t get the huge need for civilians to have one eye flip when the other doesn’t. Nothing we are doing at night is life or death. You don’t sound like this is for LEO job duties so having a split second longer to get back to both eyes covered (flipping both tubes down at once rather than 1 staying down and one being flipped up) just isn’t a real issue.

You are willing to step into high quality from the start so really from here it’s fairly small differences. I think you will be more than happy any route you go.
Link Posted: 5/14/2018 7:59:41 PM EDT
Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm reading and re-reading it all, and going out on the webz and trying to find as many videos/reviews as I can. I think I'm heavily leaning toward the MOD3-B now. I like the idea of having monoculars available without buying an extra PVS-14 on top of the binos, even though I understand I wouldn't use it that way much at all. It also seems like most PVS-14 accessories should work with it. Am I correct that it uses the same objectives and eyepieces as a 14?

Can anyone think of a significant capability offered by the Sentinel or DTNVG (other than folding eyepiece) that I'd be missing with MOD3-B? Absent that, I think I've decided and now just need the time to make a call to the shop :)
Link Posted: 5/14/2018 9:31:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2018 9:32:33 PM EDT by MunnyShot]
Being frugal aka trying to get the best for you money is possible, but generally your going to sacrifice weight, size, flaws in the picture, and performance. First off I'd recommend a setting a realistic budget, that way posters can recommend things that will fit your use better. If 2500 is your NOD budget then a bino set up is out of the running and if your considering adding another 14 in the future weight, matching spec, and setting it up properly can be challenging. As far as specs go one thing to keep in mind not all gens are created equally. Depending on the spec of the tube will determine how well you will be to see in near dark conditions without additional IR or moon/star/light pollution. Some Gen2/Gen2+ tubes do very well as some Gen3/Gen 3 high spec tubes in surban/starry skies, but go under a dark tree canopy, inside of a dark warehouse etc without supplemental IR light and the Gen2/2+/low spec 3 will be almost useless. My first 14 I bought was a brand new autogated 10K life Gen2+ unit which was great for an urban setting paired with a Steiner D2 and it was awesome even in a no light condition. If no one else had NV It'd be great, but light a bright flashlight in a dark area it's very easily traced back to me every time I illuminated with IR. Basically in a no light scenario you want the highest spec NV you can afford. If your not worried about anyone else having NV than a 1,500 Gen2+ will be great. A couple of things to consider about the D2 vs MAWL C1+ is the illuminator brightness is about the same and while the D2 is LED based very faint pinkish glow can only be seen to a short distance and at a very small angle. Also the weight and mass are similar between the 2 units.
Link Posted: 5/15/2018 9:46:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 9:42:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/18/2018 6:25:58 PM EDT
Last couple of questions I have.

Regarding the MOD-3B, I see there are a couple of options, manual/automatic gain and standard/c-mount. I get the feeling that user-adjustable gain is a good thing and probably considered the 'standard' for NODs, but I don't have any experience with that. I would think if auto was an 'upgrade' it wouldn't be cheaper. I wouldn't think I'd want to find myself in an environment where the 'auto' gain decided on a setting that is either too bright or too dim, and not have any way to adjust that. Is that a decent assessment, or am I off base here and auto works and there's no reason to spend a few hundred extra to have to adjust manually?

For c-mount, I think it's saying that option is for cameras ONLY, as in I wouldn't be able to use it without a camera? But that seems weird to have as an option that would seem to render it useless as a head-mounted binocular device, so I'm not sure I'm reading that right. I could see myself wanting to snap some NV pictures in the future, though by no means would that be a primary use. It looks like the PVS-14 camera adapters could be used since the objectives I believe are the same between the MOD-3B and PVS-14?
Link Posted: 5/18/2018 9:23:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2018 9:34:05 PM EDT by murtis]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
Last couple of questions I have.

Regarding the MOD-3B, I see there are a couple of options, manual/automatic gain and standard/c-mount. I get the feeling that user-adjustable gain is a good thing and probably considered the 'standard' for NODs, but I don't have any experience with that. I would think if auto was an 'upgrade' it wouldn't be cheaper. I wouldn't think I'd want to find myself in an environment where the 'auto' gain decided on a setting that is either too bright or too dim, and not have any way to adjust that. Is that a decent assessment, or am I off base here and auto works and there's no reason to spend a few hundred extra to have to adjust manually?

For c-mount, I think it's saying that option is for cameras ONLY, as in I wouldn't be able to use it without a camera? But that seems weird to have as an option that would seem to render it useless as a head-mounted binocular device, so I'm not sure I'm reading that right. I could see myself wanting to snap some NV pictures in the future, though by no means would that be a primary use. It looks like the PVS-14 camera adapters could be used since the objectives I believe are the same between the MOD-3B and PVS-14?
View Quote
Autogain works very well and it really doesn't mess up the view. Aviation tubes don't have manual gain so that should tell something already. Manual mostly used for turning the gain down a bit which gets you a less noisy image. Darker yes, but you may see better because of the lack of noise despite the image being dimmer. But like said, aviation tubes are with auto - it does work.

Manual gain tubes probably have a better resale value or at least are easier to sell because everyone's got a PVS-14.

There is however something with manual gain tubes (with US Gen3) regarding binos that could affect the outcome and that's the optical axis offset requirement which is less strict with ground tubes (manual gain) compared to aviation tubes. A binocular is collimated/adjusted so that the images of both sides overlap and don't point at different directions. The whole system, objective lens, tube and eyepiece are never exactly centered optically, because of manufacturing tolerances, and thus the PVS-14 / ANVIS style eyepieces have a way of adjusting them to make the axis offset minimal. I said with US Gen3 because I don't know if other manufacturers (like Photonis) do the same, but pretty sure it's exactly the same way with everyone. Aviation tubes generally have the most stringent requirements for everything, then ground tubes and then commercial.

With aviation tubes the range of eyepiece adjustment should always be enough, but with ground tubes this is not be the case. I don't know if new L3 Gen3 tubes are generally aligned better than older tubes, but as far as I know the requirement hasn't changed so there's no need for the manufacturer to realign anything if it's not "perfect". Not that realigning is even possible in all scenarios and when it is it's a huge job and not worth it. In a monocular this offset is not a big issue as your other eye will not be seeing much anyway, so it isn't that important if the image actually points to where your eye is pointing at. Image distortion is one thing too that needs to be low in aviation tubes.

This shouldn't be an issue if you get your unit from some place where they know their stuff - tubes can always be hand selected to match a great pair and get a good aligned view (less eye fatigue / headaches after prolonged use). And of course all other specs will be matched between the tubes too. In addition to the benefit of having the possibility to turn the gain down, the ground tubes tend to weigh less due to them not having the same kind of EMI shielding that adds weight.

Don't go with C-mount. No reason really with your use case. Plus the standard PVS-14 or ANVIS objective lenses are great. With C-mount you have the ability to try out different objective lenses and mounting to telescopes etc.

DTNVG's are not brittle at all, no need to worry about that if you chose it over the Mod3. One bino (family) that was left out here is the ANVIS that is very light weight, but has the weakest body of all mentioned already. Pilots run them and thus the housing design could be leaned towards weight savings instead of making it able to take in drops / bumps into trees, etc. If you went for the second hand route then an ANVIS unit might be the most cost effective way to get into great binos and be light weight too.

Regarding your thermal fusion thoughts, there's the E-COTI that you can add to any of the mentioned binos afterwards (except to C-mount optics they might be an issue with COTI).
Link Posted: 5/20/2018 4:28:59 PM EDT
Sorry for the piggyback but I was wondering if there were any differences in depth of field between the different binoculars or if they would be example specific. For instance, we went night hiking and I noticed on my PVS-14 that if I focused not quite to infinity, but almost there, that the ground would be quite blurry. I couldn't see where I was stepping well at all. Very normal I know. But I tried out a different set of PVS-14s and noticed that if I focused on the distance with those, the ground would be pretty well-focused and I could see much better where I was stepping. Would any of the other binocular sets be better for this than others for whatever reason?
Link Posted: 5/26/2018 11:12:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/26/2018 11:14:51 AM EDT by Klaustrophobia]
A final giant thanks to everyone for the input and also Vic at TNVC who didn't appear in this thread but talked to me a good bit on the phone twice. I finally committed to my decision and submitted the order. How'd I do?



I know there will probably be some comments on lack of a helmet. If the nightcap doesn't work out for me I'll definitely look into them, but I figure with a ballistic helmet on my long term list, and wanting a non-helmet anyway for hot and humid weather, a bump helmet doesn't really make a lot of sense for me.
Link Posted: 5/26/2018 10:36:12 PM EDT
I think you did fantastic. You'll enjoy that for sure. Also, my bump hasn't come out since I bought a nightcap for my 14.
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 9:42:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2018 10:09:13 PM EDT by Kits4]
Wow, well done!
Link Posted: 5/27/2018 9:43:01 PM EDT
Wish I had 10k to drop right now
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 3:19:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2018 3:23:27 AM EDT by murtis]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
How'd I do?

...

I know there will probably be some comments on lack of a helmet. If the nightcap doesn't work out for me I'll definitely look into them, but I figure with a ballistic helmet on my long term list, and wanting a non-helmet anyway for hot and humid weather, a bump helmet doesn't really make a lot of sense for me.
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Sounds like a solid set. Can't go wrong with any of the binos mentioned (though I haven't personally handled a Mod3).

Regarding bumps making sense - I'm betting they will, especially after a hour or so of continuous & non-stationary use under the Nightcap. Sure it works and if you fiddle with the counterweight placement to get it lower then it's quite decent, but the binos will wobble around. Some guys have sown in bungees to alleviate that but I haven't so can't say how effective it is. Running works fine with a bump but not with a Nightcap. I find there's a weight cutoff where a Nightcap stops being the best option regarding comfort / usability (leaving out the use of accessories like mounted lights).

I have ran binos with the Nightcap and while it's okay, a bump is just so much more comfortable (except heat wise maybe). Where I live we never get warm nights so that one isn't something I never run into - just the opposite (5C / 41F some nights ago and it's summer) and that's something the Nightcap does good too, allows you to just pile up clothing on top of it.

Take time adjusting the straps to get it just right. The straps coming from the back to your chin need to be pretty tight so that they properly take on as much of the weight as possible. I find I can leave a bump looser. Easier to speak
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 4:59:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2018 4:59:54 AM EDT by brodband8]
Y'all are over thinking the weight thing a little too much. I never understood the weight listed for DTNVG's. I have never seen a pair weigh 18.8 ounces.

I don't know how ACT came up with that weight but there is a negligible difference between the weight of a Sentinel and the weight of a DTNVG, at least on my shitty scale.

Both have no batteries in them.

DTNVG:

Attachment Attached File


Sentinel:

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 6:08:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2018 6:11:08 AM EDT by murtis]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brodband8:
Y'all are over thinking the weight thing a little too much. I never understood the weight listed for DTNVG's. I have never seen a pair weigh 18.8 ounces.

I don't know how ACT came up with that weight but there is a negligible difference between the weight of a Sentinel and the weight of a DTNVG, at least on my shitty scale.

DTNVG: 552 grams
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The initial weight they gave out was 520g (18.3oz) and said that was calculated with "as lightweight as it gets tubes" (somewhere between 50-60g I assume). Didn't say anything about the manufacturer of the optics with which the 520g figure was calculated. Could be with non-ITAR optics or some US ones, no idea.

Mine has shielded tubes (guessing you too) that weigh a bit more (never weighed one but guessing ~70g) and comes to 562g with battery, 546g without. It seems they shed around 15-20g from the early model housing or maybe it's just variation between batches. The old model weighed 579g with battery (same tubes & optics as I have now).

Soo maybe their 535g that they list today is more realistic if you have lighter tubes. Mine would be there with plastic booted tubes I guess.

And yeah, a few grams here or there don't make a difference. In some cases it does, but not in the context of this topic. A Nightcap with a MUM + Rhino II + plastic J-arm is pretty much unnoticeable with no counterweight, but when I got a dovetail arm for the MUM and tried the Nightcap with a TATM it got bad. The weight difference is tiny, don't remember the values but maybe some 20g more for the TATM. but still, that combo wasn't great.

But compare a ~550g DTNVG to the new Mini B AAA version that allegedly is "sub 415 grams" is a difference that'd be very noticeable.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 6:20:18 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By murtis:

The initial weight they gave out was 520g (18.3oz) and said that was calculated with "as lightweight as it gets tubes" (somewhere between 50-60g I assume). Didn't say anything about the manufacturer of the optics with which the 520g figure was calculated. Could be with non-ITAR optics or some US ones, no idea.

Mine has shielded tubes (guessing you too) that weigh a bit more (never weighed one but guessing ~70g) and comes to 562g with battery, 546g without. It seems they shed around 15-20g from the early model housing or maybe it's just variation between batches. The old model weighed 579g with battery (same tubes & optics as I have now).

Soo maybe their 535g that they list today is more realistic if you have lighter tubes. Mine would be there with plastic booted tubes I guess.

And yeah, a few grams here or there don't make a difference. In some cases it does, but not in the context of this topic. A Nightcap with a MUM + Rhino II + plastic J-arm is pretty much unnoticeable with no counterweight, but when I got a dovetail arm for the MUM and tried the Nightcap with a TATM it got bad. The weight difference is tiny, don't remember the values but maybe some 20g more for the TATM. but still, that combo wasn't great.

But compare a ~550g DTNVG to the new Mini B AAA version that allegedly is "sub 415 grams" is a difference that'd be very noticeable.
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Yeah, now going from dtnvg/sentinel to a sub 415 gram goggle would be noticeable. 31's are 15.8 ounces on my scale and is a night and day difference between them and DTNVG's.

I've been trying to follow those mini bnvd's but heard somewhere that they were not releasing them to the public just yet? I need to contact them to double check I guess.
Link Posted: 5/28/2018 6:27:02 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brodband8:

Yeah, now going from dtnvg/sentinel to a sub 415 gram goggle would be noticeable. 31's are 15.8 ounces on my scale and is a night and day difference between them and DTNVG's.

I've been trying to follow those mini bnvd's but heard somewhere that they were not releasing them to the public just yet? I need to contact them to double check I guess.
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You sure you need a fourth pair? Not that it's wrong to have Sentinels, DTNVG, PVS-31 and then that Mini. I wouldn't mind that setup either.

No idea if they're releasing them to the public, haven't paid any attention as EU availability will anyways be zero or some possibility with a huuuge price tag.

The optics on that unit alone seem to be 100g less than regular -14 ones. Wonder if they'll be available separate sometime into the future.
Link Posted: 6/18/2018 6:29:31 AM EDT
Got a shipping notice for Thursday.

I'm sure it's for the 'accessories', but a small part of me is still giddy and hoping I might have hit absolute jackpot in the wait time lottery and I'll have wizard eyes in a couple days instead of the projected couple months.
Link Posted: 6/21/2018 5:23:49 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:
Got a shipping notice for Thursday.

I'm sure it's for the 'accessories', but a small part of me is still giddy and hoping I might have hit absolute jackpot in the wait time lottery and I'll have wizard eyes in a couple days instead of the projected couple months.
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Lol wait times. Depends on who you buy from i guess. its interesting how most have he L-3 filmless autogated tubes in stock and are able to ship the tubes/unit pretty much right away after you send payment. it says your unit you purchased is "standard" implying that you didnt pay for out of this world high spec tubes, which from what ive seen isnt something that requires a wait anyways. These newer L-3 filmless autogated tubes have a performance spread like no other tube ive seen. it s all over the place. And ive seen alot of tubes, tubes are my specialty. The growth of the GaAs photocathode material on the input glass seems to be something that requires alot of luck for L-3 when it comes to how high a tube performs after manufacture. ive seen high spec tubes that have super high numbers on all perameters and then on the other hand ive seen these tubes that were basically just over the minimums that are allowable for the tube model. Most of them are in the 31-34SNR or so range of performance and tubes that are in that average performance range deffinitely shouldnt have wait times at all. Many have tubes like this in stock and ready to ship. if the tube specs are less than the acclaimed 39SNR 72lp/mm r(which only have a wait time because L-3 must have one of these to ship out at any given time and they are the most difficult specs for these tubes to be manufactured with) and all other specs super high then you are waiting for tubes you could have picked up from almost abywhere else and they would have shipped almost immediately from in stock inventory. hell ive seen a few tubes from another NV dealer that were 38SNR 72 lp/mm tubes and they were in stock and ready to ship when purchased. And anyone who says they can see a oticable difference between a 38 and a 39 SNR needs some sort of medical attention because after about 30SNR or so the noticable difference as you go higher gets less and less pronounced and at 38 to 39 is going to ve basically non existent. Do now my question for you. Did you even get the unit yet?
Link Posted: 6/21/2018 1:24:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2018 1:33:38 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 6/21/2018 1:39:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2018 2:56:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

LoL...Sigh...Once again you go out of your way discounting our product and services and you know exactly who this customer was talking about. Since you keep beating your chest about what you know about tubes, this is your specialty in almost every thread you write, let's set a few facts straight you mentioned to clear the air shall we. (Btw, you mentioned awhile back you were gonna be banned with other wild accusations, etc., so glad to see that also was not true and you're still here), but I digress.

You say this, it says your unit you purchased is "standard" implying that you didnt pay for out of this world high spec tubes. Since "tubes are your specialty" you mentioned in this thread, surely it appears you do not know what the "standard" means" with our customer who posted a screen shot of our check-out cart. My guess you do know, but used the play on words to somehow discount. Actually the "standard" means that his MOD-3 is a STANDARD HOUSING, not a C-MOUNT HOUSING itself. You may want to understand about comma's, and how and why they are placed in descriptions the way they are in relations to descriptions. Just some friendly advice.

Secondly, yes at times there are wait times, it's called demand. We do a pretty substantial amount of direct purchasing from L3, probably right up there when all tubes combined we are one of the largest commercial distributors out there. Couple that with our 10 year warranties, we pride ourselves on some of the best customer service before AND after the sale, yes there can be some wait times for some of our tubes, especially with very high specs tubes, which are NOT in any large qty's at all. We also give WORST case scenarios on most lead times, and most times they are MUCH shorter. But hey if your other friends have such large qty's in stock of these L3 Filmless tubes and super high spec tubes, I invite folks to look elsewhere and check out their warranties along with build quality, CS before and after the sale.

Reputation and being comfortable with ones hard earned money of 4K most times for NVD's being shelled out to a reputable company, customers don't mind waiting at times for peace of mind knowing we're going to always take care of them. At least that is what the majority of customers tell us and we're fine with that.
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Don't worry TNVC guys, I know a trolling 'tard when I see one .

Blue text: yup.
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 12:19:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2018 12:41:55 PM EDT by dts-blackout25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

LoL...Sigh...Once again you go out of your way discounting our product and services and you know exactly who this customer was talking about. Since you keep beating your chest about what you know about tubes, this is your specialty in almost every thread you write, let's set a few facts straight you mentioned to clear the air shall we. (Btw, you mentioned awhile back you were gonna be banned with other wild accusations, etc., so glad to see that also was not true and you're still here), but I digress.

You say this, it says your unit you purchased is "standard" implying that you didnt pay for out of this world high spec tubes. Since "tubes are your specialty" you mentioned in this thread, surely it appears you do not know what the "standard" means" with our customer who posted a screen shot of our check-out cart. My guess you do know, but used the play on words to somehow discount. Actually the "standard" means that his MOD-3 is a STANDARD HOUSING, not a C-MOUNT HOUSING itself. You may want to understand about comma's, and how and why they are placed in descriptions the way they are in relations to descriptions. Just some friendly advice.

Secondly, yes at times there are wait times, it's called demand. We do a pretty substantial amount of direct purchasing from L3, probably right up there when all tubes combined we are one of the largest commercial distributors out there. Couple that with our 10 year warranties, we pride ourselves on some of the best customer service before AND after the sale, yes there can be some wait times for some of our tubes, especially with very high specs tubes, which are NOT in any large qty's at all. We also give WORST case scenarios on most lead times, and most times they are MUCH shorter. But hey if your other friends have such large qty's in stock of these L3 Filmless tubes and super high spec tubes, I invite folks to look elsewhere and check out their warranties along with build quality, CS before and after the sale.

Reputation and being comfortable with ones hard earned money of 4K most times for NVD's being shelled out to a reputable company, customers don't mind waiting at times for peace of mind knowing we're going to always take care of them. At least that is what the majority of customers tell us and we're fine with that.
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Here is all the proof you need right here buddy, that I am eho is say I am and can do what I say I can do. Emails between Ed and I about tubes I rebuilt for him and his opinions on my skill. Blacked out any possible ITAR issues or anything that is kept between Ed and I pertaining to business or trade secrets. the rest of the content of the emails is untouched and in original form. im done arguing with someone whos technical knowledge is far below the technical knowledge I possess and my knowledge of tubes in general.





ETA: and when it comes to someone attempting discount someone else, its the other way around from what you stated. Your the one trying to constantly discount me because you know I can see through right through all of it. And that is a bad thing for you. anyone who rereads any of the posts from our past arguements will be able to see that I argue a claim you have made or am defending a claim I made from your counter claim to that claim. All except for one of my posts that I can recall had anything to do with discounting you. Every single one of your posts shows a desperate attempt to try and discount me personally as to my knowledge and skills that I have. So thats just another one to add to the list of Hypocrisies that is floating above your head.
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 12:46:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2018 12:53:45 PM EDT by dts-blackout25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Klaustrophobia:

Don't worry TNVC guys, I know a trolling 'tard when I see one .

Blue text: yup.
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I assure you I am no "trolling tard". Read some of my posts. you will see.

And if I were you id get my money back asap, if you even can, and go purchase your gear somewhere else that has the tubes in stock. Which is pretty much anywhere. You will get your gear in as long as it takes the seller to package and ship and the time it takes for shipping a package. Probably a week at the most. there is a reason why they dont ever have the tubes in stock and are the only place i know of where a customer pays and then has to wait for half a year to get their purchase.
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 1:10:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2018 4:04:26 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 2:36:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2018 2:42:28 PM EDT by Klaustrophobia]
Blah blah blah (ETA last two posts weren't there when I started this, that obviously wasn't aimed at TNVC )

Not reading all that. Or any of it actually. 4 weeks for a high demand low supply item, with a move of shop thrown in according to what they told me on the phone. Hell I didn't even realize it was 4 weeks until I just looked at the order date, I really thought it was only 1.5-2.

Let's un-stupify this thread.





(Mark 23 soon to be wearing a DBAL-PL, last part of the order yet to arrive )

Now I need to find an instruction manual/video or something. .... I don't actually know how to operate the damn thing yet . Got the mount pretty much figured out but my standard futzing around has hit the limits of what I consider safe without figuring what all the thingz are for/how to focus and whatnot. The what I assume is diopter scale doesn't seem to actually correspond to the white dot on the tube?

First night I'll be able to play with it is Sunday. I don't really want to wait that long, but I really want my first look through NVGs to be at something worthwhile, not my bathroom mirror. Planning to hit the beach and stargaze/see how much shipping traffic shows up in the distance.

P.S., getting the shroud on the night cap was a real PITA . Not sure why they can't put holes in the fabric already.
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 3:43:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

More thumping of your chest...Cool. Still does not remedy you completely did not know what the word "standard" was referring to on our customers shopping cart. As for 6 month waiting time...Flat our fabrication except for the "ultra" tubes from L3 with 2800 FOM+ and 39+ signal to noise some want and we have special orders on with L3 that can take 6 months. Have a good day.
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Please... if I wanted to thump my chest I would. This is my proof that all of your assumptions and constantly trying to discredit what I know and what I can do, are based on nothing. Ooh so it was about your shopping vart or whatever, still doesnt remedy you completely. Not much can. Only one fabricating things around here is you. Im here posting to help others better understand the technology so they can avoid being on the shitty end of a deal. Your here to grow your bottom line. Obviously. Ad far as beating chests goes, im talking to the biggest chest pounder, brags about everything, SELf proclaimed "best", guy who cant accept that someone got his goat. You have a great day.
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 4:44:27 PM EDT
If you want to bitch and moan, start your own thread. No one wants to hear it here.
Link Posted: 6/22/2018 11:32:28 PM EDT
No bitching or moaning here. You yourself states you have zero experience when it comes to NV. So id say do a little research before you start saying that someone has stupified a thread or is bitching and moaning. Fact of the matter is, unless you specifically requested that you wanted a special ordered tube, then any wait longer than it takes for a seller to box and ship an order(a couple of days at the most) plus the transit time of the order(the time it takes to be delivered to the customer once the shipping courier is in possession of it, a week is being pretty generous here) is pretty out of line in most instances. 4 weeks to have to wait before a production tube is delivered to the end user is highly unreasonable. It means that the tube wasnt in stock but your money was accepted anyways and was likely used to order a tube that pretty much everyone else would have in stock and would ship out from the sellers inventory almost immediately. No one else has wait times for production tubes that I know of.

NV is no different than buying a car and in some cases just as expensive. So not shopping around and kicking do.e tires can cost you in this case it may or may not have saved you any money, but you would deffinitlely wouldnt have to wait four weeks for a unit with production tubes installed in it. To finally be delivered.
Link Posted: 6/23/2018 1:28:37 AM EDT
Yo, no dog in your fight and TNVC has been a supporter of this site for a long time and donates to the team giveaway since I can remember. They are good to us here at arfkom. I have called TNVC to answer questions before when I run into a system I've never played with as I have called most major players in the industry and unfortunately I have never been able to talk to anyone who could help me. Except for DTS... although I avoid calling Ed since he wants money and I respect the shit out of that because if I could afford him, I would, and have in the past.

I do shit no one else does because I am amazing. I gave the forum a 25 cent ribbon design done in elegant MSPaint and got zero kudos, but I did that to fuck L3 more than anything. I'm tooting my own horn here because when I call around to get an answer I either get:

1: L3 tells me to fuck off. Fuck you L3 and fuck Honeywell too you cucks (but your tubes are ok L3 when they fucking work goddamn)

2: Companies admit they don't know the answer because they just assemble shit. It was cool when one company offered me a job though, that guy was legit and he was cool to chat with. Most of the NVG companies are likely smaller operations and don't need specialized knowledge besides apply lube here, insert nanoplug there, and pretend that they aren't drop shipping.

3: DTS ignores my emails and IM's because he's probably still mad I didn't send ribbons to him, but only because he deserves a whole presentation and I havent had time to film the process for him. I feel bad for that but it can't be helped. He lives not too far from me too so I'd be inclined to visit if he ever answered a fucking IM. DTS is EASILY the most knowledgeable person in the industry I've talked to besides Ed. Hands down. He's also expensive but shit, he's got bills to pay. You should sell me some elastomer though bro since I really need to pot a tube and have no idea how to do it. idgaf, thug life and no amount of you telling me I'm stupid is going to stop me.

4: I ask David and he answers, gives somewhat bad advice which I follow, then send more emails asking for answers and he ignores me. I tried to help when I told him his website was exploitable, and got no thank you there. He's easily the best NVG historian and knows all the obscure and sweet juicy details. If he didn't live across the ocean I'd buy him a Fosters. 100% David is a legit guy and tbh I usually email him at odd hours like a crack head to get more info. I still have the videos of the glass tube assembly, and having done some myself now omfg glass tubes are way more fun to build than anything else. You should answer my emails.

5: FLiR is cool af. I love those guys. They sent me free thermal. They give me good deals, and then don't reply when I talk shit about wasting a hundo on a mount that wobbles worse than Michael J Fox holding a champagne glass. I ain't even mad FLiR, if you fly me in I will suck everyone off in your office. You guys seem to just be the coolest ever and thanks for the free shit.

But back to why this post was made. The entire industry is a facade of buzzwords and bullshitters. No one is willing to really just tell the truth about how and why things are the way they are. So here's some troofs:

1: night vision is disposable. Quit wasting money on an item that is designed to be thrown out

2: housings costs less than 2-3 bills to make, some even way less. The lenses are cheap af to make, anyone telling you otherwise is lying because they like money. I like money. Shit, look what Vortex and Primary Arms did to the scope/RDS market. Decent glass is possible and is possible cheap. U buyin fake news fam. The new FLiR lenses taking advantage of better tube specs are cool though. Good work FLiR for not being cucks.

3: Bridges are so expensive because no one makes a cheap one and when they do it intentionally sucks. deal with it. RQE should reply to my email and hook it the fuck up with a factory third or one that was made by a drunk intern. I'd buy it. I'll send you nudes too. Just ask.

4: innovation is dead in the industry. the basic circuits have been around for years and are nothing special, each housing claims to solve the problem but the problems are the solutions. it's annoying and watching the same dumb shit happen in every new version is terrible. NVG companies are selling shitty solutions to suckers under the guise of mil spec. Except AIB, it's german so you know it's quality.

5: People come to this forum with silly questions and lots of money to waste. Good for them.

OP, you spent your money with a company that has a great reputation here. You wont be disappointed. here are a couple constants you should remember:

IR illuminators cost less than $20 to make
IR strobes are annoying as fuck and if you wear one I will smash it
helmets should be whatever is cheap and fits, don't wear kevlar to walk around in the woods jfc dude
your nvg will suck without IR lights, use them
L3 are cucks
buy russian lasers they are full eye burning power and that actually doesn't matter since even legal lasers work fine for miles. miles.
and don't be afraid to ask stupid questions. Just don't buy into all the buzzwords. It's lame every time I hear people clamoring to succ the L3 titties for tube specs they have no use for, when a simple Omni 4 will do everything they wanted for the two times a year they actually go outside at night.

Bird up, fam, stay lit af.
Link Posted: 6/23/2018 3:36:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/23/2018 9:32:51 PM EDT
Augee let me be your partner in nods and I will show you the way to el dorado. we could b together.
Link Posted: 6/24/2018 3:09:26 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Augee:
This thread has taken some interesting turns, hahaha...

@dts-blackout25

I appreciate you finally coming out and making accusation about the reason behind our wait times, rather than a whole lot of sideways insinuations. And while I rather doubt that you're going to believe anything I say anyways, I'll do you the courtesy of offering a direct response.

You are mistaken about why our units have wait times. We have tubes and parts on hand, and perpetually have more on purchase order that are being added to our inventory, however, these units still need to get built by our build team.

I have had in the past and continue to enjoy friendly and collegial relationships with many of the small, independent builders in our market, many of whom could be considered competition. The biggest difference between TNVC and many small builders as it relates to this issue is simple volume. We don't only deal with civilian and commercial orders for a single unit, we also deal with multiple agency and organizational orders that may be for a dozen + units at a pop, and all these units need to get built, and that takes time, even with a full time build team on staff that is never not busy, and they have worked nights and weekends building units to fill orders.

While you obviously have an impressive knowledge of image intensifier tube technology, all the more impressive since you've said in the past that you only got interested in NV in the last five years, your assumptions about the way our business is run are totally off, and the claim that we are waiting for an order and using that money to buy parts could not be further from the truth. Are there some items that we sell that we do not necessarily stock and have drop shipped from the manufacturer when an order comes in? Sure, it's not exactly practical to keep inventory stock of GPNVG-18s, and oh boy, you wanted ANVIS mount variants, but we only have dovetails in stock...

You put out information for potential customers to be able to use to make informed, qualified decisions about the technology, nothing wrong with that. We try to put out as much information as we can here at TNVC, full well knowing that many people will take the information we provide on the internet, through e-mail, and on the phone to turn around and make an informed purchase elsewhere, and we do so with few, if any reservations, and I've talked to people on the phone and told them exactly what to look for when they told me flat out that they were about to go look at a used unit. Do I hope that they might appreciate that help and maybe when it comes time for them to buy a mount, a helmet or head mount, laser, etc. to use with that unit, that they will come back and make the purchase from us? Of course, but it's neither a requirement or expectation for us to give that support and information at no cost.

~Augee
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Augee I will first start by saying that altgough we have not really crossed paths much, it is obvious to me that you do know what you are talking about. There is a level of respect that is had from one real expert to another real expert. You obviously have knowledge that stems from things you have learned from your own experiences and that is something that seems to be rare these days. And I think you can agree that the knowledge you have has little to do with the fact that you now work at TNVC. in fact in my opinion TNVC is very lucky to have you. Your one of the only guys who ive seen post that has TNVC in their handle that i have shown me any reason to take seriously. In fact its downright refreshing to finally see someone from TNVC post something that has substance and isnt filled with a bunch of rediculous "look how cool I am" "I know what im talking about but I cant comment due to ITAR" type garbage. Its just very curious as to why it takes someone relatively new to the company tio fibally give a detailed and coherent answer to a question that has been floating around for quite a while now. Thats no shot at you. Your easily the most transparent guy who works at tnvc and posts in the forums. Before you, it seemed close to impossible to get a straight answer from anyone over there about anything when someone asked about something. in my opinion you should be the highest paid guy that works at TNVC as true honest experienced based knowledge is much more valuable than a bunch of second hand knowledge that is accompanied by a bunch of worthless bragging and showing off.

However I can say that im no stranger to volume builds, up to 20 units at a time, by myself and I can get them finished and tested(includes all adjustments made on test equipment) in less than a week and thats if I am busy and have other work I need to get to as well. If im totally free of other work then I can build 20 units and vompletelyntest them in a couple of days. So I cant really say that I agree with a whole team of builders building a dozen units taking longer than i can build and test 20 units. Again not a shot at you. Just that I doont see how it could take a team to buld 12 units as long or longer thatn it takes a single person to build and test 20 units.

Also you bring up a good point. There shouldnt be any reason why builders and dealers cant have friendly relations. I am always looking to make friends. The pronlem is I was pretty much disrespected by your Boss the very first time we had an interaction. So as far as a friendship goes their never really was a chance for something like that to happen. When someone acts like they know everything is spreading information that is incorrect and you take the opportunity to share the correct information and are completely disrespected with posts that attempt to discount your knowledge and make you look like an asshole in front of an audience of people, ya it will rub anyone the wrong way. and all the assumptions and attempts to discredit me that your boss has made were all just based on absolutely nothing. He had plenty of chances to confirm that I am indeed who i say I am with Ed, who he has claimed to be a frend of. shouldnt be too hard to call up a friend and ask themnfor their thought and opinions on someone. did hedo that, No. He instead continues to try and discredit me and attempts to get everyone to write me off as someone who doesnt know what they are talking about. So I will say that there is respect for you and your obvious experienced based knowledge and the fact that you share it with others. However i have no reason to have any respect for your boss based on my experience's and interactions with him, the obvious pull he has arpund here to censor prople who post about experiences in dealings they have had with him that would reflect badly on him and also to get entire threads removed without a trace in which he made himself look foolish from hos own posts about a simple question of where tubes used in NGI units are sourced from and why some dont cone with spec sheets. Very valid questions that he danced around and ultimately made himself look bad, instead of just being honest and giving a straight answer. Theres no reason that giviing a straight honest answer will cause people to lose respect for you. itis the constant beating around the bush and giving cryptic incomplete answers lacking any real detail that make peoplewonder about why they cant get a hood straight answer from someone. And then there is all the people I talk to outside of this little bubble of safety Victor has created for himself. One only needs to travel a short distance outside of this site before they begin to hear about alot of bad experiences had when dealing with your boss, from alot of different people. these include other SME's who have been disrespected by him, but more importantly alot of end users who have been shafted pretty hard from their accounts. If it were only one or two people who who I talked to rhat told me about a bad experience they have had, I could deffinitely see an arguement that its just a couple of people who are over reacting and are blowing something way out of proportion. however when a large majority of people I talk with bring up a bad experience they have had it becomes harder to imagine that everyone is overreacting. The more likely case is that they have had bad experiences when.dealing with your boss and that all the people are not the issue but the issue stems from the source which is the only common denominator in all of these peoples experiences. Believe me there are a few people who he has pissed off in the past that hace spoken to me that have been religiously digging up dirt and continue to dig up dirt on him and have kind of taken the obsession to a crazy level, but they started out just like everyone else in the sense that they felt disrespected for no reason other thansomeone couldnt just accept when they were wrong and instead tried to belittle these people abd discount them in front of everyone on the internet, so that he didnt have to simply admit wthat he was mistaken because in his mind that looks worse than totally disrespecting someone whomwas simply trying to share the correct informations. So unless he works to fix his flaws, which im sure he will never admit he has even though everyone has flaws, then not much is likely to change. So there it is. Thats the reason I have a problem with him which I didnt at first, and is why alot of people aso have a similar problem with him. there is easily more evidence to prove i and others correct than there is to discount us.

Anyways thank you augee for clearing up that mystery. I have seen no reason not to trust what you say and no reason not to showyou respect. Your deffinitley not partbof the problem and could actually be helpful in ficing things that obviously need fixing.

Paul

Note: I am typing this from my phone so im sure there are mispellings and such that always occur when I type from my phone. If anything is unclear due to mispellings or whatever, please let me know and I will clarify.)
Link Posted: 6/24/2018 3:46:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2018 3:52:39 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 6/24/2018 3:47:07 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Yo, no dog in your fight and TNVC has been a supporter of this site for a long time and donates to the team giveaway since I can remember. They are good to us here at arfkom. I have called TNVC to answer questions before when I run into a system I've never played with as I have called most major players in the industry and unfortunately I have never been able to talk to anyone who could help me. Except for DTS... although I avoid calling Ed since he wants money and I respect the shit out of that because if I could afford him, I would, and have in the past.

I do shit no one else does because I am amazing. I gave the forum a 25 cent ribbon design done in elegant MSPaint and got zero kudos, but I did that to fuck L3 more than anything. I'm tooting my own horn here because when I call around to get an answer I either get:

1: L3 tells me to fuck off. Fuck you L3 and fuck Honeywell too you cucks (but your tubes are ok L3 when they fucking work goddamn)

2: Companies admit they don't know the answer because they just assemble shit. It was cool when one company offered me a job though, that guy was legit and he was cool to chat with. Most of the NVG companies are likely smaller operations and don't need specialized knowledge besides apply lube here, insert nanoplug there, and pretend that they aren't drop shipping.

3: DTS ignores my emails and IM's because he's probably still mad I didn't send ribbons to him, but only because he deserves a whole presentation and I havent had time to film the process for him. I feel bad for that but it can't be helped. He lives not too far from me too so I'd be inclined to visit if he ever answered a fucking IM. DTS is EASILY the most knowledgeable person in the industry I've talked to besides Ed. Hands down. He's also expensive but shit, he's got bills to pay. You should sell me some elastomer though bro since I really need to pot a tube and have no idea how to do it. idgaf, thug life and no amount of you telling me I'm stupid is going to stop me.

4: I ask David and he answers, gives somewhat bad advice which I follow, then send more emails asking for answers and he ignores me. I tried to help when I told him his website was exploitable, and got no thank you there. He's easily the best NVG historian and knows all the obscure and sweet juicy details. If he didn't live across the ocean I'd buy him a Fosters. 100% David is a legit guy and tbh I usually email him at odd hours like a crack head to get more info. I still have the videos of the glass tube assembly, and having done some myself now omfg glass tubes are way more fun to build than anything else. You should answer my emails.

5: FLiR is cool af. I love those guys. They sent me free thermal. They give me good deals, and then don't reply when I talk shit about wasting a hundo on a mount that wobbles worse than Michael J Fox holding a champagne glass. I ain't even mad FLiR, if you fly me in I will suck everyone off in your office. You guys seem to just be the coolest ever and thanks for the free shit.

But back to why this post was made. The entire industry is a facade of buzzwords and bullshitters. No one is willing to really just tell the truth about how and why things are the way they are. So here's some troofs:

1: night vision is disposable. Quit wasting money on an item that is designed to be thrown out

2: housings costs less than 2-3 bills to make, some even way less. The lenses are cheap af to make, anyone telling you otherwise is lying because they like money. I like money. Shit, look what Vortex and Primary Arms did to the scope/RDS market. Decent glass is possible and is possible cheap. U buyin fake news fam. The new FLiR lenses taking advantage of better tube specs are cool though. Good work FLiR for not being cucks.

3: Bridges are so expensive because no one makes a cheap one and when they do it intentionally sucks. deal with it. RQE should reply to my email and hook it the fuck up with a factory third or one that was made by a drunk intern. I'd buy it. I'll send you nudes too. Just ask.

4: innovation is dead in the industry. the basic circuits have been around for years and are nothing special, each housing claims to solve the problem but the problems are the solutions. it's annoying and watching the same dumb shit happen in every new version is terrible. NVG companies are selling shitty solutions to suckers under the guise of mil spec. Except AIB, it's german so you know it's quality.

5: People come to this forum with silly questions and lots of money to waste. Good for them.

OP, you spent your money with a company that has a great reputation here. You wont be disappointed. here are a couple constants you should remember:

IR illuminators cost less than $20 to make
IR strobes are annoying as fuck and if you wear one I will smash it
helmets should be whatever is cheap and fits, don't wear kevlar to walk around in the woods jfc dude
your nvg will suck without IR lights, use them
L3 are cucks
buy russian lasers they are full eye burning power and that actually doesn't matter since even legal lasers work fine for miles. miles.
and don't be afraid to ask stupid questions. Just don't buy into all the buzzwords. It's lame every time I hear people clamoring to succ the L3 titties for tube specs they have no use for, when a simple Omni 4 will do everything they wanted for the two times a year they actually go outside at night.

Bird up, fam, stay lit af.
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Hey man I honestlymust have missed tour email because I check my email often. I admit im not very good at checking the AR15 message system. So thats probably why I missed any IM's truth is since im just one guy and have alot of work to do usually its almost impossible for me to teply back right away to emails and tests and calls. But I always do my best to respond to everyone. It just can take a little while sometimes. Also i simply miss emails sometimes. Usually its when no junk emails go to my junk folder. Try again and I will respond. Also im not upset about the ribbons. Its nice that you offered to send some and I was not expecting you to hurry to send and I wasnt expecting you send them at any certain time or date. As said it was a nice gesture thathappens whenever you have time to make it happen. I dont remember what exactly what we talked about that gives you the youropinion that im expensive. i try to be as competitive with prices as I possibly can and often sell items for less than what I had originally planned to ask for them. Hsopefully we can figure out what it was that made you feel that way so I can know what I can do to be more competitive in pricing for that particular item. As for selling you some potting material, the stuff I use is sylgard 170 but I have invented a method of final potting tubes that requires no vacuum degassing and that is whybi can use the dast cure stuff. Fast cure Sylgard 170 sets up way to fast to be used with the standard potting method. So you wouldnt want to buy the stuff I use from me. However I was given a bunch of tubes of a mystery potting material by a buddy of mine who also pots tubes. I havent used it as I dont use theb standard potting method like everyone else. So I dont know exactly how longnit takes to setup/cure or any other info on it really. Its just a whight tube full of a dark grey potting material. I see no reason why it wouldnt work and my friend told me he has potted tubes with it so im sure it works fine. If you just want to pay the shipping ill send you a tube of this stuff so you can try your hand at potting a tube. There is enough material in the tube for potting about 8-10 10160/11769 format tubes so theres plenty to play around with and practice with. Lmk
Link Posted: 6/24/2018 4:05:25 PM EDT
Ll say is maybe you should have answered thebquestion about waitimes a long time ago and this wpuldnt be an issue. Your arrogance and constant attempts to zdiscredit mehave left a bad taste in my mouth. To the point where I am done dealing with it. thebvery first interatioon we had was me simply trying to ckear up a common misconception about what makes a tube resistant to recoil. you were still under the impression that the misconception is correct so I gave ypu the correct info with details. your response was pretty disrespectful but, the private message you left me afterwards was what really started this all. The first sentence, while at the time did not seem like much , now I realize was a very passive way of comparingbyourself and your experience to be equal to Eds. very much not the case. Dont ever fo that again. That is disrespectful to Ed. furthermore you asked me why I called you out on your knowledge of tubes, which inotially I hadnt. Your respofing posts were what prompted me to question your knowledge. You went on saying you were not the enemy and whateverm I gave you a very respectful and friendly reply. A reply that someone who indeed wasnt an enemu and wanted to make friebds would have responded to. But you did not. Its clear that my reply gave yypu the impression that I had submitted to you and that is what you were looking for. Theres is absolutely no reason why you wouldnt have replied to my message other than for a reason similar to that. I would have replied tonthe message I sent you if I was indeed intent onnmaking friends. It obvious what you were after. i still have copies of your originalnmessage and my reply to it that I can post if you really want to go there. Anyways enough of this bullshit. we can agree to ho our seperate ways and be done with it as it doesnt seem like anything is going to change. Tok bad but no skin off my back. I done dealing with all of the xrap that you send my way when I try to post. Maybe the last few posts I got wrapped up i your game. Im done with that. All I ever wanted to do was try to further the knowledge of the technology. I didnt sign up for all of this bullshit.
Link Posted: 6/24/2018 4:08:19 PM EDT
Last thing, I dont know why you think you can start making accusations and mudslinging and thinknill just sit back and take it. Being able to dish it out but expect not to get it back is a pretty poor quality.
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