So I've decided to try my hand at annealing. I get some 750 degree and 425 degree Tempilaq, put the 750 on the insides of the necks, and the 425 about 2/3 of the way up from the base to the shoulder. Fire up the drill and socket...6-8 seconds seems to do it according to the Tempilaq in the neck, but the cases look almost exactly the same. There's a very slight difference in the "annealed" area, but it's so faint it's difficult to photograph.

So just for shits and giggles, I painted some 750 below the shoulder where I had been putting the 425 and torched the thing real good until it melts off. No doubt I totally overdid it and trashed the case...still minimal color change and nothing like what I've seen in countless pictures and youtube vidoes. Is this something that happens with some brass?

Go untill the Tempilac liquidfies and no more.

Some brass cases change color some don't much at all.

Got it, thanks. You'd think someone would cover that in the three thousand tutorials out there.

Brass I was practicing on was Federal 6.5CM, but what I will ultimately want to anneal if this works out will be Hornady.

Excellent idea for proof of technique, thank you. I have plenty of LC and IMI brass here to play around with.

The cleaner the brass the less color change you will see, right to the point of almost no color change...

These are freshly annealed...
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As are all these with the necks up...
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Running them thru corn cob afterwards makes them look normal...
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5-6 seconds sounds like to long, I use a Mapp gas torch(18K BTU) and its takes a few seconds to change the Templax....You want high heat short period for best results(less time for heat to migrate toward the casehead)....

I also dunk mine in water, it is not needed as far as casehead heat, but they clean up better as far as removing the templax...
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AKSnowRider,

Once you have the process dialed in, why do you keep putting Tempilaq on all those cases and why on the outside?

Putting the Tempilaq in direct flame isn't recommended since the flame by itself is way hotter. The idea is on the inside of the neck, and further, not to pay attention to the very mouth where the flame may hit it directly, but to the inside for when it truly flows. Getting it into the flame creates all sorts of interesting outgassing and combustion colors.

I'm sure you have this down based on time and flame settings, but showing Tempilaq in the direct flame zone is going to confuse beginners.

We want the Tempilaq to melt based on conduction of the metal, not convection from the flame.

To the OP, I will also add that color isn't a reliable way to judge all brass annealing. With some brands, like very clean Lapua, you can barely tell at all if you use induction or salt bath. With LC, and most old Mil-Spec brass, it is much easier to see, but still not the way to judge the metallurgical condition.

Thanks for the pics, that makes me feel better. I’m using MAP gas as well, maybe I need to get a little closer to cut down the time.

Left was pulled as soon as the Tempilaq melted, right is the one I intentionally cooked.
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The key was to watch the Tempilaq for when it melts.

Using a (scrap) practice case, watch for how long it takes the lower temperature Tempilaq to melt down below the shoulder.

By knowing both the exposure for the Tempilaq in the mouth, and the safety on the body, you can budget your time tolerance for the neck exposure time with some margin that makes the process easy.

I started out with it on the inside, then tried with it on both inside and outside, same results regardless where I put the tempilaq..So outside has been easier..now could that change with lower heat source? maybe, not sure since I haven't tried it..This may shock you more..I anneal twice per loading...first after depriming shot brass,  it gets annealed, rotary tumbled with SS pins and soap, then shoulder bumped, neck bushed, trimmed, then annealed again, vibratory tumbled, run over an expander die to set neck tension, primed, charged and bullet seated, then over a concentricity gauge and straightened to less then .001" runout...This is just what works for me since I have been focused on neck tension consistency...Of course both the rifle and the ammo can easily outshoot me...

How much of a concern is over-annealing? In the playing around I’ve done thus far, I’d need to torch the top pretty good to get the 425 on the case body to melt off.

You don't want it any hotter then needed, grossly overheated destroys the brass.. they say as little as 650* is enough for brass, I think 750 is better, but you need to be quick at 750...As soon as you get orange sparkles off the flame, the brass is done....

Yes, that could in fact still allow for over doing it and affecting the alloy stoichiometry.

If you get the neck right, and you don't see a problem below the shoulder, that doesn't mean to keep adding heat.

You should do it once to see how long that takes, but not to shift your process to that limit.

Once the Tempilaq in the neck is melted, you are done. You can get away with a little more, but it can get to where you are Cherry red at the neck and still good at the body and we don't want that either. You just want enough to get the whole neck to melt and stop there. There will be a gradient down the shoulder when you do this and that is okay, provided you don't see the mouth go red.

Move your flame tip to bias toward center on the side of the shoulder, not at the shoulder and not the tip of the mouth and you should be fine. The mouth will end up a little hotter, the lower part of the neck has the shoulder for conduction so the key is to get the bottom of the neck, not just the tip of the mouth.

Gotcha. Using MAP can make it happen so fast that it probably all hits about the same time.

Do a case in the dark once you have the process dialed in. A barely visible dull glow is okay, but a real red one is too much.

With all the attention you are giving it, I'm guessing your StDev and verticals are fairly tight.

Thanks for the input, guys. Going to take another run at it tomorrow.

OP,

Another method I don't hear discussed as often is Salt Bath Annealing.

For small batches, like <100, I use salt bath since it takes much less set up and is very consistent if you have a steady count.

The melted salt is at a temperature that anneals the brass, so all you do is soak the case mouth for a number of seconds and you get the desired result.

Once you learn to set it up, you are working in about the 20 mins it takes the salt to come to temp. It takes about 5 to 8 seconds for a case to anneal and you can run two at a time in my tool. It takes me about 15 mins to run 100 cases once the bath is hot.

For bigger batches, I use the Giraud and let the auto feed run. This just takes more adjustment and set-up for me. I will be installing ten turn pots on my machine when I get a chance in order to be able to fine tune the speed quickly. The flame adjustment will then still need a little tweaking, but it isn't difficult.

I like both methods and I am very happy with the results.

Yeah, they are pretty tight...This is on a 300 rum shooting the 230 Berger Target Hybrid on a 28" Bartlein chambered barrel..

Attached File


Created: 06/06/18 02:03 PM
Description: 300rum 3.0950" test 6
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 15.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.717
Bullet Weight(gr): 230.00
Temp: N/A °F
BP: N/A inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#

FPS  FT-LBS

PF
5    3218    5289.51  740.14  
4    3221    5299.38  740.83  
3    3214    5276.37  739.22  
2    3208    5256.69  737.84  
1    3214    5276.37  739.22  
Average: 3215.0 FPS
SD: 4.9 FPS
Min: 3208 FPS
Max: 3221 FPS
Spread: 13 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 3220 FPS

I looked into the salt bath method but I’m keeping it simple to start. I might invest a bit money and/or effort in equipment if I decide annealing is something I want to add to my process long term. At this point my only investment is the Tempilaq.

Ha, I said the same thing a few years back..still using the tempilaq and torch...

Doesn't get much better than that.

It works for me, but I am not a competition shooter or anything..just a guy that loves hunting and shooting long range for fun and filling the freezer...took this years moose at 720 yards..putting a couple of my buddies behind it and getting cold bore hits at 2000 yards is always a smile maker, especially when the women do it...

Yeah, but I have a thing for gadgets. When I started reloading I was shooting IDPA and doing a lot of pistol courses...so bought an LnL AP to save money, LOL.

The shit on my reloading bench now would buy enough 9mm for a lifetime.

Same here, except mine is mainly rifle stuff...

Oh yeah, so is mine. I’d have been fine if I had stuck with pistols. Hell, I bought a bolt action just because I wanted to load for something more accurate than my AR’s. My ultimate goal is something like your rig posted above...but I have some learning to do first.

Meh, just get one and start loading, easiest way to figure it out...Obviously you have the basics, which is most likely all you will need...the stuff I am doing is just me finding something to do, sure it helps accuracy, but it is 90% of the work for 5% improvement... My buddy says I am a perfectionist...I keep telling him I just don't see it...

I've had good luck with this method.  Sucks sitting in a darkish room and staring at brass, but it works.  Drill and a 10mm deep well socket. Usually takes 9-10 seconds with propane torch and Hornady 6.5CM brass.

IMHO, you've got to be a real bonehead to kill brass.  If you heat it to glowing red, you've killed it.  But that doesn't happen in milliseconds, you'd have to nearly intentionally do it.

I'd like an annealing machine, but I also need a labradar.  I'll stick with my cheaper/slower method for now.

Thanks for the input.

I think the hurdle here for me is the seeming inexactness of it. Every other aspect of case prep can be (and is) checked for consistent results. It makes me twitchy that I can't confirm results by any empirical method. If the damn things changed color at least they'd all look the same, LOL. I did read somewhere about annealing, measuring, seating then pulling a bullet, and then measuring again to check for consistent spring back. Or I might be at the point where I'm overthinking it.

I now have 250 twice fired cases and another 250 unfired. I think I'll run through the unfired cases a couple times to get them all on the same rotation and then come back to this.

Edit- and yeah, you definitely want a Labradar before an annealing machine. Despite my apparent issues in this thread, I wouldn't trade my Labradar for an annealing machine even if you threw in a Magnetospeed. ;)

You see the issue very clearly. What we are wishing for is a way to know if our necks are giving a controlled repeatable grip on the bullet.

Annealing is only a part of that system. Friction isn’t easy to control and neither is preload. Somehow we manage even though we are usually not measuring either one.

It isn’t difficult to affect the friction. The wrong chamfer, inadvertent lubrication, metallurgical adhesion, etc, can all change the friction coefficient by facotors. Add to this the “neck tension” that is the product of our resizing, and it is a wonder how it works at all. This is just a testament to how some systems are not that sensitive to neck tension and some are. Remember that some ammo specs call for sealant in the necks. Imagine the difference in that same cartridge just with and without the sealant. I have seen the data double the neck tension pull force, yet both cartridges can be accurate.

I think you're using way too much Tempilaq, and you're not using it effectively.

First, the Tempilaq doesn't care what the source of heat is, so it will react to the torch flame and melt before the brass gets really hot.  Coating the shoulder and neck of the case just (in my opinion) wastes the material, and it might just keep the brass from getting as hot as well.

I follow dryflash3's process: I put a dot of 750 degree Tempilaq inside the case neck, and angle the case as I heat it so I can see inside.  There's a definite change in the dot at around 5 seconds in a propane flame - that's when I dump the case.

With .223-based cases (like 300 Blackout), I rotate the case in a deep-well 10mm socket.  This acts as a heat sink that keeps the head of the case relatively cool, but allows the shoulder and neck to get good and hot.  I adjust the flame to make a nearly transparent cone about 1.5 inches long, and I heat the case inside the tip of that cone.  For non-torch/non-lab burner folks, the hottest point in this sort of flame is at the tip of that barely visible cone, and the length of that cone doesn't matter; the temperature will be the same.  Keeping the flame short saves fuel and makes it easier for me to control when the case enters and leaves the hot spot.

I started annealing for converting .223 to 300 Blackout, and with a variety of headstamps.  As dryflash3 noted, different brass will have different degrees of discoloration.  All LC brass, all WIN brass, and many other stamps gave me a noticeable, if not "GI-looking" discoloration.  RP brass was pretty consistent with a minimal but detectable color change.  PMC brass didn't change much at all.  You SHOULD have some sort of color change, but don't expect dramatic changes from every brand.

I believe you're referencing AKSnowRider's pics, not mine. I'm doing it just as you state, a small dab on the interior of the neck.

You're right.  That's my bad.  AK is using too much, and in the wrong place.

Meh, my setup works for me...Was never meant to please you or anyone else..

"inexactness" this covers the subject of annealing  well.

Its not only the temperature, time  matters also.

Hold a 223 brass in the lower part of a candle  flame 13 seconds or till it gets to hot for your finger.

Next take a 223 brass  while holding the head with a wet sponge donut, about 1/2" thick.  When you hear the water sizzle, about 30 seconds.  Its done.

Compare the case color of both after cleaning with a rag.

And therein lies my issue. They look damn near the exact same after annealing, even if I intentionally overdo it. The visual difference between 8 and 15 seconds is pretty much nonexistent. I'm going to need to learn to trust the process or the Tempilaq, because I have no quantifiable way of ensuring I'm getting it right.

An Experiment on Sensitivity I'd Recommend Every Annealer Do

When I was playing with annealing on 22-250 cases, I applied the Tempilaq as three dots in a line along the length of the case.  One on the case neck; one on the case wall just below the shoulder junction; one about half way down towards the case head.

I used a regular 10 mm socket thingie to spin the case in front of the flame.  As I was trying to anneal the neck and shoulder, I held both in the blue part of the flame.  I needed only about 4 seconds to melt the Tempilaq.

I held the spinning case in front of the flame for many, many seconds (10-12 sec?).  I wanted to see how much time margin I had before the bottom-most dot would melt.  This would tell me if the 4 seconds was critical and had to be strictly timed or whether a simple, "one one thousand, two one..." counting method for four seconds was adequate and it also told me how critical the  timing was prior to case damage (annealing the case head).

An experiment like the one described should be done by everyone who's annealing cases.  This will ensure they are safe.

My Result (YMMV)

As it turned out, there was no way to ever melt the lowest dot when heating the neck and shoulder.

That was good news!  There was no fear I'd anneal the web and case head using this method.

I had the same problem when I first started annealing. I found that some brass that shows no real change, will change over time as it sits. I found other experiences on forums similar to mine. I think this is the case with what we see in factory or once-fired brass that has a nice looking anneal to it. Trust the Tempilak over your eyes, it's calibrated to 750*, we aren't.

The cases I see a huge amount of instant visual result is with neck turned cases. Not really sure why this is unless the other surface of normal brass has some "protective tarnish" and the neck turned is new virgin (to atmosphere) brass, but it almost instantly goes from bright gold to a nice straw color.



I started with a pan of water and a torch, then moved to a socket, then made a couple "spinning wheel machines with MAPP torches", now i have a couple electronic induction annealers.

The good news is the socket in a drill will get you 80%+ of the consistency of the spinning wheel of death depending on your technique. And on paper you really won't see any difference between the two methods ( I did a ton of testing). The spinning wheel machines did 1000 cases in around 20 minutes though, I couldn't do that by hand.

My issue with the spinning wheels became the gas itself. If the air temp was different, or I had a slight breeze in my garage, or the gas pressure was fluctuating, etc.. the anneal changed, sometimes slightly sometimes dramatically, just too many variables with the gas for me to be satisfied.

That's when I moved on to electronic annealers. They're by far the best method if you have OCD. Of the three methods this is the only one that you KNOW will be 99% identical from case-to-case. Do they have a tangible on paper benefit if your other methods are solid? not really (again lots of testing). I like them because they never change. If I have it set for 3.2 seconds today, it's 3.2 seconds all day every day at the exact same wattage(lets call this temperature, but that's simplifying it). I can also swap between calibers by going to a tested and proven time setting. I have case feeders on them so it's also pretty easy to sit back and watch it perfectly anneal over and over with no input from me.

I didn't read the two pages of answers, but can tell you this.

Yes, the color results can be different, most likely will be.    Has to do with a number of things, up to and including how you clean them ahead of time, what you used to clean them, brass type, heat source, fuel source, etc.

Bottom line ..... Trust the tempilaq!   Ignore everything else, including color expectations.