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Posted: 2/15/2018 1:58:49 PM EDT
[#1]
Not me, I wet tumble as my last step.
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Posted: 2/15/2018 1:58:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Not for me. At a minimum I wipe down my cases with a clean rag and some IPA.
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Posted: 2/15/2018 2:23:12 PM EDT
[#3]
You shouldn't fire your loads with case lube on them.
That is covered in the front of every reloading manual in the basic reloading instructions. The case expands and grips the chamber so as to not exceed the "bolt thrust" parameters for your firearm. If case is lubed, bolt thrust will be greatly increased. You have been lucky so far. Please read a reloading manual. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 3:15:03 PM EDT
[#4]
dryflash3 nails it again.
Even before the days of tumblers (I actually made my first one) I wiped each case by hand. The cloth or paper towel should be free of any petroleum type product. Motor |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 3:44:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Even aside from the problems/hazards already mentioned here, there's another issue that is annoying especially with sizing wax. Powder often likes to cling around the neck lip where you applied it for the expander ball when used.
It appears that the bullet pretty much pushes these clinging particles down or out of the case when seating the bullet. However, I have no idea "if" all the powder is actually cleared away or if some might be mashed and trapped between the bullet and case. I haven't seen this mentioned as a concern, but just for good measure I don't want any chance of anything between the bullet and case. I may be overthinking that part of the issue, but if nothing else, having a thoroughly clean case free from sizing wax makes the powder drop a lot cleaner. You're supposed to have a thoroughly clean case after sizing from my reading and in accordance with what dryflash mentions. OP using sizing wax makes this even more important. I use Imperial sizing wax too. Early in my rifle reloading I was wiping down the cases and even using a q-tip dampened with alcohol to clean the inside of the neck. What a pain. Dry tumbling your sized cases with corn cob media is so much nicer and effective. I can see wet tumbling without SS pins also working but a little more tedious perhaps. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 4:06:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You shouldn't fire your loads with case lube on them. That is covered in the front of every reloading manual in the basic reloading instructions. The case expands and grips the chamber so as to not exceed the "bolt thrust" parameters for your firearm. If case is lubed, bolt thrust will be greatly increased. You have been lucky so far. Please read a reloading manual. I don't know how sloppy greasy other guys are getting their brass, but mine are minimally lubed. If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. And all my precision bolt gun brass is properly sized for optimal fit in my chamber, so I don't see how bolt thrust would be an issue. Heck, I've handled factory ammo that felt more slippery to the touch than my stuff. Perhaps I've been lucky, but in 19 years and THOUSANDS of rounds, I've never even experienced a case head separation. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 4:28:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Well, I'm sure DryFlash meant no more than the facts. That you have fired all this ammo without removing any trace of lube is just silly. I pray there is not a single new reloader who reads that nonsense and has issues, safety or otherwise. Can a light bit of lanolin on a loaded round be fired safely is not the issue, it boils down to no one does it, and why, especially suppressed ! What a frackin mess that would be. I will point out that as a hand loader for nearly 50 years, your response is the first. My experience would be with competitive shooting in there as well. There are all manner of things one can do in a process and make it work, and get by with it. Again, WHY... That's the kinda stuff just not put forth on a technical forum, we want to teach and share our experience in a way that meets or exceeds best practices.
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Posted: 2/15/2018 4:51:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One shouldn't make assumptions. I'm not trying to be abrasive, but your post came across as condescending. I've read at least 9 different reloading manuals in the last two decades and have experimented far beyond what most handloaders have ever dared or thought to do. A major suppressor manufacturer used to consult with me in making the quietest subsonics for a multitude of cartridges back in the early 2000s when EBR and Alabama Ammo were about the only game in town (the Black Hills stuff wasn't even worth mentioning). I don't know how sloppy greasy other guys are getting their brass, but mine are minimally lubed. If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. And all my precision bolt gun brass is properly sized for optimal fit in my chamber, so I don't see how bolt thrust would be an issue. Heck, I've handled factory ammo that felt more slippery to the touch than my stuff. Perhaps I've been lucky, but in 19 years and THOUSANDS of rounds, I've never even experienced a case head separation. Excessive thrust ob the breech face stresses the action of the gun. 'Sticky' from lube does not mean at chamber pressure it is not allowing extra movement and force on the action. Many of the lubes used (like lanolin) have high film forming properties. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 4:57:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One shouldn't make assumptions. I'm not trying to be abrasive, but your post came across as condescending. I've read at least 9 different reloading manuals in the last two decades and have experimented far beyond what most handloaders have ever dared or thought to do. A major suppressor manufacturer used to consult with me in making the quietest subsonics for a multitude of cartridges back in the early 2000s when EBR and Alabama Ammo were about the only game in town (the Black Hills stuff wasn't even worth mentioning). I don't know how sloppy greasy other guys are getting their brass, but mine are minimally lubed. If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. And all my precision bolt gun brass is properly sized for optimal fit in my chamber, so I don't see how bolt thrust would be an issue. Heck, I've handled factory ammo that felt more slippery to the touch than my stuff. Perhaps I've been lucky, but in 19 years and THOUSANDS of rounds, I've never even experienced a case head separation. He is not being condescending. He doesn't want them to take your post as good advice. People drive on bald tires every day and just get lucky. Recommending the practice where someone may take it as good advice and get killed is bad. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:10:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One shouldn't make assumptions. I'm not trying to be abrasive, but your post came across as condescending. I've read at least 9 different reloading manuals in the last two decades and have experimented far beyond what most handloaders have ever dared or thought to do. A major suppressor manufacturer used to consult with me in making the quietest subsonics for a multitude of cartridges back in the early 2000s when EBR and Alabama Ammo were about the only game in town (the Black Hills stuff wasn't even worth mentioning). I don't know how sloppy greasy other guys are getting their brass, but mine are minimally lubed. If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. And all my precision bolt gun brass is properly sized for optimal fit in my chamber, so I don't see how bolt thrust would be an issue. Heck, I've handled factory ammo that felt more slippery to the touch than my stuff. Perhaps I've been lucky, but in 19 years and THOUSANDS of rounds, I've never even experienced a case head separation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You shouldn't fire your loads with case lube on them. That is covered in the front of every reloading manual in the basic reloading instructions. The case expands and grips the chamber so as to not exceed the "bolt thrust" parameters for your firearm. If case is lubed, bolt thrust will be greatly increased. You have been lucky so far. Please read a reloading manual. I don't know how sloppy greasy other guys are getting their brass, but mine are minimally lubed. If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. And all my precision bolt gun brass is properly sized for optimal fit in my chamber, so I don't see how bolt thrust would be an issue. Heck, I've handled factory ammo that felt more slippery to the touch than my stuff. Perhaps I've been lucky, but in 19 years and THOUSANDS of rounds, I've never even experienced a case head separation. Which manuals? We have new reloaders here reading posts, and it's one of my duty's to point out dangerous practices when they are posted. You are free to do as you please, I will point that this is a bad practice in this forum. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:30:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
I've noticed it seems like everyone either tumbles or wipes off their brass after sizing or finishing loaded cartridges. I've been reloading for 19 years and always use either Dillon Case Lube or Imperial Sizing Wax. I just load after lubing and sizing and throw my loaded cartridges in the 50 or 100ct plastic boxes and call it a day. Also, some lubricants are sticky or greasy and so may attract and hold dirt that can mar brass or the chamber. Some lubricants can leave behind residue in a hot chamber that can build up over time and be difficult to remove once it becomes troublesome. But, as you have already demonstrated to yourself, it is not something that is going to cause an immediate, catastrophic failure, so while I personally can't image loading cartridges and not tumbling off the lubricant, I can't point a finger at you and say you are doing something wrong. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:30:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you read 9 reloading manuals, how did you miss the part about removing case lube? Which manuals? We have new reloaders here reading posts, and it's one of my duty's to point out dangerous practices when they are posted. You are free to do as you please, I will point that this is a bad practice in this forum. I'm NOT recommending others not do it like me. I was simply asking if I was the only one. Other handloaders looked at me like I had 3 eyes when we talked about our methods and I mentioned not post-size tumbling. Hence the question to see if I was the only 'crazy' one. I'm not so prideful and set in my ways that I wouldn't revisit the practice if convinced I needed to do it. To answer your question: Lyman's 47th Lee Modern Reloading The ABC's of Reloading Vol 3 by Dean Grenell Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 4th Ed Laser Cast Reloading Manual 1st Ed Hodgdon Data Manual No 26 Speer Reloading Manual #7 Berger Bullets Reloading Manual 1st Ed There's one more that I can't remember, but I lost it in a move or I loaned it out and never got it back. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:33:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Thank you for the feedback, gentlemen. Especially you, hdwhit - I found your post very helpful.
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:42:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is covered in the front of every reloading manual in the basic reloading instructions. Please read a reloading manual. I could not, however, find any mention of it in the Hornady Handbook. Could point out where it recommends this? |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:45:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cloth or paper towel should be free of any petroleum type product. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 5:49:25 PM EDT
[#16]
I use Unique. I don't tumble afterwards. I use a very minimal amount. It's wiped off by hand/rag after sizing and that's it.
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Posted: 2/15/2018 6:11:11 PM EDT
[#17]
I just looked at my Hornady 10th edition and my Speer 14th edition. The Speer clearly stated you should remove any case lubes, but I couldn't find it in my Hornady 10th. Doesn't mean it's not there, I just didn't find it.
Still, even on the can of One-Shot, they warn you to wipe off any residue before bullet seating...and that's in spite of how thin and clean One-Shot is. So, even if the Hornady manual failed to mention it, Hornady warns to wipe off all lubricant before resizing. On the Hornady manual, they push their One-Shot product heavily. I notice that product doesn't have a sticky, tacky residue when it dries like sizing wax. I've tried One-Shot, and you can tell powder doesn't stick to the case neck like it can with sizing wax, but during sizing I noticed a heavier effort in the press during resizing. I went to sizing wax. OP, like you I use and love the Imperial sizing wax. However, that stuff probably leaves more residue behind than just about any other lube. If you're not going to dry or wet tumble after sizing, at least use an alcohol dampened cloth or such to wipe off the cases. While we may not be talking catastrophic failures except in some extreme cases, the magic (physics) between the case and the chamber is one place you don't want any more residue than one already gets in that location from firing clean, prepped cartridges. |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 8:16:22 PM EDT
[#18]
For me it has nothing to do with safety. As a career machinist I'm all too familiar with how abrasives work. Leaving anything on your brass that will invite anything to stick to it just goes against better judgment.
Motor |
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Posted: 2/15/2018 11:57:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't miss anything. Perhaps I'm lazy in streamlining certain processes, but I don't always believe everything I read and I found it (in my experience) to be a superfluous step with over-exaggerated consequences. FOR ME. I'm NOT recommending others not do it like me. I was simply asking if I was the only one. Other handloaders looked at me like I had 3 eyes when we talked about our methods and I mentioned not post-size tumbling. Hence the question to see if I was the only 'crazy' one. I'm not so prideful and set in my ways that I wouldn't revisit the practice if convinced I needed to do it. To answer your question: Lyman's 47th Lee Modern Reloading The ABC's of Reloading Vol 3 by Dean Grenell Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 4th Ed Laser Cast Reloading Manual 1st Ed Hodgdon Data Manual No 26 Speer Reloading Manual #7 Berger Bullets Reloading Manual 1st Ed There's one more that I can't remember, but I lost it in a move or I loaned it out and never got it back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you read 9 reloading manuals, how did you miss the part about removing case lube? Which manuals? We have new reloaders here reading posts, and it's one of my duty's to point out dangerous practices when they are posted. You are free to do as you please, I will point that this is a bad practice in this forum. I'm NOT recommending others not do it like me. I was simply asking if I was the only one. Other handloaders looked at me like I had 3 eyes when we talked about our methods and I mentioned not post-size tumbling. Hence the question to see if I was the only 'crazy' one. I'm not so prideful and set in my ways that I wouldn't revisit the practice if convinced I needed to do it. To answer your question: Lyman's 47th Lee Modern Reloading The ABC's of Reloading Vol 3 by Dean Grenell Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 4th Ed Laser Cast Reloading Manual 1st Ed Hodgdon Data Manual No 26 Speer Reloading Manual #7 Berger Bullets Reloading Manual 1st Ed There's one more that I can't remember, but I lost it in a move or I loaned it out and never got it back. Lyman 49 page 49 step 7 Lyman 50 page 27 step 7 Speer 14 page 86 Nosler 7 page 64 step 7 Lee 2 (what you called modern reloading) page 37 step 10 ABC's 2nd edition page 53 Hornady promotes their one shot and doesn't mention removing it. So not mentioned in the couple of Hornady manuals I looked in. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 5:23:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You shouldn't fire your loads with case lube on them. That is covered in the front of every reloading manual in the basic reloading instructions. The case expands and grips the chamber so as to not exceed the "bolt thrust" parameters for your firearm. If case is lubed, bolt thrust will be greatly increased. You have been lucky so far. Please read a reloading manual. Click To View Spoiler I at least wipe cases off with a paper towel. Years ago, I had a click-no bang that was likely due to handling primers after handling cases with RCBS lube on them. Whether it was from the case or my fingers, I'd just rather not have that variable. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 12:36:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A long email from my father, but contrary and interesting. Click To View Spoiler I at least wipe cases off with a paper towel. Years ago, I had a click-no bang that was likely due to handling primers after handling cases with RCBS lube on them. Whether it was from the case or my fingers, I'd just rather not have that variable. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 1:55:38 PM EDT
[#22]
I don't like my ammo sticky. More likely to catch dirt or grit and bring it into my chamber or mags.
I dry tumble, resize and then wash in hot water, dish soap, and maybe a little vinegar or lemon juice, then rinse and leave in the sun to dry. Usually in batches of 2000+, since its about the same time and effort for the tumble/wash/dry for 2000, as for 200. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 2:08:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looked in a couple of manuals and found removing case lube mentioned, Lyman 49 page 49 step 7 Lyman 50 page 27 step 7 Speer 14 page 86 Nosler 7 page 64 step 7 Lee 2 (what you called modern reloading) page 37 step 10 ABC's 2nd edition page 53 Hornady promotes their one shot and doesn't mention removing it. So not mentioned in the couple of Hornady manuals I looked in. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 2:11:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Leave-on Case Spray:
In my book - this is NOT traditional case lube, and I would NEVER use it on rifle cases (I use Dillon spray lube for that). But with CARBIDE PISTOL dies (yep - meant to shout that), I apply a very light coat of Hornady OneShot. It is a bad idea to resize pistol cases without a lube or spray. Yeah - I know some of you get away with it, but it's much tougher on your brass and less consistent. Unlubed resizing will wear out your Dillon press and your brass a lot quicker. Always use OneShot. You can leave that on the cases. As for rifle- I always clean the lube off - even if it's just with an old towel. |
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Posted: 2/16/2018 6:01:53 PM EDT
[#25]
I read the "spoiler". I must say the "bolt thrust thing" has never been believable to me especially after years of shooting and reloading. The action is made strong enough to contain the pressure regardless if the casings expand and grip the chamber wall or not most high power rifles create enough pressure to overcome this grip anyway.
As stated above and by others I clean my brass to prevent unwanted debris from sticking to them. It only takes one tiny spec of hard debri to get embedded into your soft brass case. Then this casing now acts as file or abrasive stick and scratches everything it comes into solid contact with like your chamber and your sizing die. I don't clean my brass for safety reasons. I clean them out of respect for my tooling and my firearms. Motor ETA: Just another quick comment on bolt thrust. This thrust comes from rearward movement of the cartridge which when lubes has no resistance causing the case head to slam into the bolt face. This is something that has very little chance of happening with property sized casings. They way most of the people "talk" on this forum saying they push the shoulder back only 3 to 4 thousands of an inch even in semiautomatic rifles just how much impact do you think is possible when this rearward "thrust" has a scant .004" of travel to gain it's momentum. This reminds me of the negative press the Mosin Nagant got in the early gun rags because someone kaboomed one that was converted to 30-06. Then later after it was learned what the load was another gun writer wrote. "A 30-06 casing FULL OF BULLSEYE will blow anything up" |
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Posted: 2/17/2018 10:07:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. Quote HistoryQuoted: If anything my pistol brass and 556 brass (lubed with Dillon case lube) comes out almost 'sticky' when completed. I'm not big on doing extra steps that aren't of some real benefit but leaving case lube on just seems wrong in so many ways. Quoted:
Leave-on Case Spray: https://basspro.scene7.com/is/image/BassPro/145925_10205484_is In my book - this is NOT traditional case lube, and I would NEVER use it on rifle cases (I use Dillon spray lube for that). But with CARBIDE PISTOL dies (yep - meant to shout that), I apply a very light coat of Hornady OneShot. It is a bad idea to resize pistol cases without a lube or spray. Yeah - I know some of you get away with it, but it's much tougher on your brass and less consistent. Unlubed resizing will wear out your Dillon press and your brass a lot quicker. Always use OneShot. You can leave that on the cases. As for rifle- I always clean the lube off - even if it's just with an old towel. I have to ask since i've realized i got a "bad" rifle die from dillon when i was a new reloader I used this die for 20~ years  best i can tell it hasn't wore out my 550. (although i wouldn't be surprised if my shell plate is warped) It takes / took an extreme amount of force to use this die in comparison to any other i've used (granted i don't load but a few calibers)
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Posted: 2/17/2018 12:26:00 PM EDT
[#27]
OP:
A couple of things: -you asked if anyone else left the lube on loaded cases. No, every one that has responded removes it. They do it for different reasons, but remove it. -Hornady 4th Edition pge 45 says to remove the lube FWIW. HighPowerbony: I did scan and then read the links in that "spoiler" you attached. The "Billy" link is interesting but refers to polishing chambers and so not a direct correlation. The "Boatright" article also is flawed in that it is very narrow in it's study. For example it starts by saying: ".......But a competition benchrest rifle needs only a handful of carefully selected, prepared and fire-formed cases containing precision loads that are matched to that rifle, its chamber and the shooting conditions..........." and then uses these carefully prepared cases for its tests. Now they do acknowledge that they are doing this and say things like, ".....We should point out that these “case events” can vary tremendously with different chamber, cartridge and firing conditions...." So it's a good very detailed article and you father has some good points but I'm not sure it's directly related to the question here. OP: I always have removed the lube from cases before loading. I did so based on all the same warnings the other posters have given. But I didn't really understand why until I read: Hatchers Notebook by MG Hatcher (my print is 1948) and it directly discusses the issue of lube or grease on ammunition. It talks about it several places in there but on pge 335, it really tests it. In the 20's /30's M1903 rifles were being damaged and some blown up and they were investigating why/how. What they found was shooters were putting lube on the bullets/cases in an effort to decrease metal fouling of the bore. So they tested that and on page 335 the results were: M1903 rifle/1920 NM ammuntion: Dry ammo: 51,335 ftlbs per inch square Bullet/neck lubed: 59,000 ftlbs bullet/case lubed: 71,154 ftlbs....................... He noted that pressure destroyed the pressure gage! As a result of that in 1921 The Military forbade any use of lubricant on the bullet or cases. With that I realized what I do now.......................... If a gun is designed for "dry" ammunition, I work up my reloads "dry." |
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Posted: 2/17/2018 12:55:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Buddy of mine has been helping me with my new reloading endeavor. I use a Lee Classic Turret, and have been doing my pistol loads for a bit now. Here's his method:
1. Lube on a RCBS lube pad. He normally uses RCBS case lube, but has used baby oil on a rag in a pinch. 2. Lube inside case neck lightly(he will not use baby oil for this step). 3. Hit it with the resizing/decapping die. 4. Pull the case, and roll on a rag with alcohol to remove lube 5. Use wool bore swab and alcohol to remove lube inside neck(extra step he does) 6. Roll case on dry rag 7. Drop case in Lyman gauge and trim if necessary. 8. Place shell back in shell holder, and rock on. Some days if I'm bored, I'll simply do the decapping/resizing/trimming steps, and toss those in a separate bucket for loading later. Lately, people have been leaving a ton of .223/5.56 brass at the range. I came home with over 600 LC casings last week from one bay. |
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Posted: 2/17/2018 1:06:47 PM EDT
[#29]
I leave it on my pistol ammo.
I re-tumble my rifle cases after trimming to remove the lube and any brass shavings. |
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Posted: 2/17/2018 4:36:03 PM EDT
[#30]
OP:
By the way.............. several of the Manuals you own DO state TO REMOVE THE LUBE AFTER sizing: You replied: To answer your question: Lyman's 47th ............ not 47th but 49th does on page 27 step 7 Lee Modern Reloading .......per Dry on page 37 step 10 The ABC's of Reloading Vol 3 by Dean Grenell...........per Dry 2nd edition page 53 Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 4th Ed ....... page 45 Laser Cast Reloading Manual 1st Ed Hodgdon Data Manual No 26 Speer Reloading Manual #7......... Per Dry....not #7 but #14 on page 86 Berger Bullets Reloading Manual 1st Ed ........page 132 There's one more that I can't remember, but I lost it in a move or I loaned it out and never got it back. Also Nosler Reloading manual #7 states it on page 64...................... Hope it helps......... PS Sierra #5 has the same advice............. |
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Posted: 2/17/2018 5:27:29 PM EDT
[#31]
TGH546E,
That is a very interesting angle and actually makes sense because of laws of hydraulics. Grease, oil and other liquid type substances can not be compressed so when a cartridge is coated (I'm sure they took these tests to the result in maximum effect) the hydraulic effect is not allowing the case to expand. This test also has nothing to do with bolt thrust. Motor |
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Posted: 2/17/2018 6:27:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TGH546E, That is a very interesting angle and actually makes sense because of laws of hydraulics. Grease, oil and other liquid type substances can not be compressed so when a cartridge is coated (I'm sure they took these tests to the result in maximum effect) the hydraulic effect is not allowing the case to expand. This test also has nothing to do with bolt thrust. Motor If it helps he describes in the test using the grease "sparingly and properly." Part of their decision to ban it's use was that ".......human nature being what it is,the grease was often used liberally and carelessly......." (In other words, he seems to recognize that if the results were that bad under careful tested conditions, imagine what would go in the "real world.") He does talk about "bolt thrust" in the same paragraphs though. But he does separate them............... He brings up the problems and then says: "............... disclosed two sad and frightening facts: 1.Grease increased the bolt thrust dangerously and, 2, as if that weren't enough, grease increased the chamber pressure dangerously. ...." He then describes bolt thrust but they don't specifically test it. The next paragraph is the one I summarized with the specific pressure tests............ PS......... This book discusses this issue elsewhere too (ie. around WW1 a Japanese??? MG used ammo that was lubed and so he talks about it there) but his comments are consistent. Being a collection of Notes (thus being called a "NoteBook"), he does that on several issues but it is still a GREAT BOOK. |
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Posted: 2/18/2018 5:10:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Even when I use as minimal an amount of lube as possible, there’s still some stickiness left on my cases after sizing. It makes it unpleasant for me to handle the cases. And since I size in large batches before loading, leaving lube on the cases would allow them to gum up the case feeder and its drop tube. As it is, I have to clean out the drop tubes pretty frequently or the lanolin-based lube builds up and causes cases to drag as they drop.
I should note that I lube ALL my brass, including pistol cases that I size with carbide die. It makes a measurable difference in sizing effort, and my “not always happy with me” shoulder appreciates that. I’ve lubed cases that I planned to “size right after lunch” but that I didn’t get back to until weeks later. That lube stays slick and functional for a LONG time. Which also means that it will be slick, able to collect gunk, and be a general mess for a very long time. So I toss the sized cases into the vibratory tumbler for 15 or 20 minutes while I’m running more cases through the sizing setup. It helps me pace myself in sizing large batches, and it leaves those large batches of sized cases clean and ready to load when I get around to it. I don’t know if there’s a safety reason to remove any and all types of lube, but that’s how I was taught, and removing the lube leaves me with rounds that “feel” finished. |
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Posted: 2/18/2018 5:38:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TGH546E, That is a very interesting angle and actually makes sense because of laws of hydraulics. Grease, oil and other liquid type substances can not be compressed so when a cartridge is coated (I'm sure they took these tests to the result in maximum effect) the hydraulic effect is not allowing the case to expand. This test also has nothing to do with bolt thrust. |
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Posted: 2/18/2018 6:54:51 PM EDT
[#35]
My comment about hydraulics had nothing to do with friction. Simply that if the material was present it could prevent or seriously slow down the rate and amount that the case will expand.
This effectively reduces the volume of space within the combustion chamber. Plus if around the neck as well could prevent it from expanding and freely releasing the bullet which without any doubt will cause pressure to rise dramatically. I'd say the grease around the neck of the ammo in the test was probably contributing the most to the elevated pressures. Motor The inability of the case to stick to the chamber wall alone should not in increase pressure. It simply lets the case jump back to the bolt face. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 6:16:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TGH546E, That is a very interesting angle and actually makes sense because of laws of hydraulics. Grease, oil and other liquid type substances can not be compressed so when a cartridge is coated (I'm sure they took these tests to the result in maximum effect) the hydraulic effect is not allowing the case to expand. This test also has nothing to do with bolt thrust. Motor We can measure the compression in steel. Is 50,000 PSI high enough? That is over 3,400 atmospheres. 115,448 ft of water. When deep sea fish are captured they must be brought to the surface in a high pressure container. The water in their cells will expand and turn them into goop. It was compressed at the depth they live. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 9:05:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Lube on a case will work the same way it does in an engine, it will separate the case from the chamber steel.
No way would I run an AR with wet cases intentionally, but a lot of guys run there AR's wet so lube is still getting on the cases sitting in the mags before the loaded round's get in the chamber and stays on the chamber walls for who knows how long. Not good either IMO ESP with a Semi-auto, all that oil splashing around has got to land on the nest round up, but you never really hear any problems caused by excess oiling problems. So what am I trying to say? well on a lot of ar's I think people are shooting wet rounds, whether they know it or not. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 9:37:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At high enough pressure liquids will compress. We can measure the compression in steel. Is 50,000 PSI high enough? That is over 3,400 atmospheres. 115,448 ft of water. When deep sea fish are captured they must be brought to the surface in a high pressure container. The water in their cells will expand and turn them into goop. It was compressed at the depth they live. He was using real rifles, real ammunition and not dead sea fish.............. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 9:42:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lube on a case will work the same way it does in an engine, it will separate the case from the chamber steel. No way would I run an AR with wet cases intentionally, but a lot of guys run there AR's wet so lube is still getting on the cases sitting in the mags before the loaded round's get in the chamber and stays on the chamber walls for who knows how long. Not good either IMO ESP with a Semi-auto, all that oil splashing around has got to land on the nest round up, but you never really hear any problems caused by excess oiling problems. So what am I trying to say? well on a lot of ar's I think people are shooting wet rounds, whether they know it or not. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 9:50:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Writing from my wretched memory here, so take it with a grain of salt.
Hatcher warned about not greasing rifle cartridges. Those experiments were performed with the old M1906 copper-nickel jacketed bullets. One well known problem with cupro-nickel jacketed bullets is the difficulty in cleaning out fouling, but another problem is that nickel and copper items in close contact will diffuse into each other, such as nickel rich bullet alloys and copper rich cases will diffuse into nickel poor (cases) and copper poor (jackets), "cold welding" the bullet to the case. In such a cold-welded condition, when a cartridge is fired, the case neck will peel away from the bullet and allow the bullet to go down the barrel. When the bullets were greased, such as what the old match shooters used to do to mimimize fouling, the grease on the case neck did not allow the case neck to expand. This either led to a case neck separation, case failure at high pressure or such, leading to all sorts of ballistic problems. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 9:52:33 PM EDT
[#41]
I lube my rifle cases with a Cabela's spray which is an alcohol/lanolin spray. I have never noticed the cases to be the least bit "sticky" after sizing. When I used the RCBS lube and pad I tumbled afterward; now, I don't. Haven't noticed any issues. YMMV.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 11:22:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To each his own but if you are shooting with AR's that are that soaked in oil............. Stop it............. no good becomes of that................. I never run MY AR"s wet, 2 drops maybe is all mine get. Winter time they get less. What I said was a lot of people run ar's soaking wet, I am NOT 1 of them, I wonder about the rifles and how wet the cases get with all that oil slogging around. Some of these guys pull the half loaded mags out the rifle and the first 3 rounds are soaked in oil. I shoot of my property, but I have guys over to shoot, and have been to a few ranges, people like to run em wet! |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 11:37:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To each his own but if you are shooting with AR's that are that soaked in oil............. Stop it............. no good becomes of that................. space heater over night in metal trays. I'm with Dryflash on this, no way I want oil on my cases. Don't know about dry lubes or alcohol based lubes, but I don't want them on any ready to shoot cases either. |
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Posted: 2/20/2018 12:01:03 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Writing from my wretched memory here, so take it with a grain of salt. Hatcher warned about not greasing rifle cartridges. One well known problem with cupro-nickel jacketed bullets is the difficulty in cleaning out fouling, but another problem is that nickel and copper items in close contact will diffuse into each other, such as nickel rich bullet alloys and copper rich cases will diffuse into nickel poor (cases) and copper poor (jackets), "cold welding" the bullet to the case. In such a cold-welded condition, when a cartridge is fired, the case neck will peel away from the bullet and allow the bullet to go down the barrel. When the bullets were greased, such as what the old match shooters used to do to mimimize fouling, the grease on the case neck did not allow the case neck to expand. This either led to a case neck separation, case failure at high pressure or such, leading to all sorts of ballistic problems. That was the next problem AFTER the "whole grease-the-ammo-" debacle. I specifically read that chapter before replying to this thread. |
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Posted: 2/20/2018 12:02:55 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read what I said> I never run MY AR"s wet, 2 drops maybe is all mine get. Winter time they get less. What I said was a lot of people run ar's soaking wet, I am NOT 1 of them, I wonder about the rifles and how wet the cases get with all that oil slogging around. Some of these guys pull the half loaded mags out the rifle and the first 3 rounds are soaked in oil. I shoot of my property, but I have guys over to shoot, and have been to a few ranges, people like to run em wet! I didn't mean YOU specifically............. I meant the "you" who are using so much oil.................. Noone used that much in the Army Infantry and that was with M4's! |
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Posted: 2/20/2018 3:46:16 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry! I didn't mean YOU specifically............. I meant the "you" who are using so much oil.................. Noone used that much in the Army Infantry and that was with M4's! |
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Posted: 2/20/2018 4:34:26 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go to ar15 section trouble shooting and maintenance & cleaning, people are running em wet, some say soaking wet! I always let them know that it won't be necessary to continue to run it wet after it breaks in. Motor |
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Posted: 2/20/2018 11:38:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually with many brand new out of the box AR-15s it's absolutely necessary to run them wet until they break in some. I have helped several people at local public shooting ranges that were having issues with their new rifle not wanting to "run" A nice coating of CLP is all it ever takes to get thumbs up and big smiles. I always let them know that it won't be necessary to continue to run it wet after it breaks in. Motor But when you run an AR wet just pull out a mag next time and strip about 3-4 rounds from it, there will be oil on them. They will still have oil splattered on the first 2 rounds even after the AR's have run the gun for awhile. I don't like doing this, I run my AR's pretty dry, and just lightly oil and wipe so no excess. To each his own, but I would think it would affect the unlocking speed of the bolt when the case is covered with oil. The pressure against the bolt face has to be way up there, cases are meant to grab the case walls at firing then shrink and let go so bolt can pull out, oil, grease will separate chamber wall and case. But what da hell? 
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