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Posted: 1/3/2020 8:46:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2020 2:13:59 PM EDT by Clockwork138]
How would you all rate this group size for a bolt action mil-surp? ~3 MOA at 100yds using open sights. Factory ammo fired at a moderate pace(to verify POI), from a bench with the front of rifle supported by a hand resting on an ammo can.


ETA: For those interested... This was produced with a K98k shooting 196gr S&B JSPs. POA was the very tip of the front blade at the bottom edge of the target's white border. Rear sight set on "1".
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 9:30:50 PM EDT
Good. Very good.

I've had some that would do better.. but not many, and that was with my 25 year old eyes.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 9:59:17 PM EDT
What rifle? Big difference between say a Swiss K31 and a clapped out Mosin.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 11:03:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2020 11:05:43 PM EDT by Clockwork138]
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Originally Posted By KB7DX:
What rifle? Big difference between say a Swiss K31 and a clapped out Mosin.
View Quote
So you're saying it's bad for a K31, good for a well-used Mosin?

I see what you are saying, but I was trying to get an idea for bolt-action battle rifle precision in general. I've seen a lot of people post of MOA accuracy. I haven't been able to replicate that with factory loads. That includes a K31 shooting GP11, with which I get similar groups to the one pictured. I don't consider myself a great shot with open/tangent sights, though.

This particular group was from an unmodified RC K98k shooting S&B 196gr JSPs(their standard JSP; not the SPCE).
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 11:48:24 PM EDT
I shot these groups out of my K98 this past week. 100 yards. 150 grain Hornady Softpoint, 47.5 gr IMR 4320 on the first group, 48 on the next (Stupid flier got away from me).


X ring is 3" across. Easily the best Ive gotten this gun to perform.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:42:34 AM EDT
Basic answer is ~ 4 moa with milsurp ammo for all milsurp rifles.

Some rifles...like Swiss and swedes do half that or less.... easily.

Handloads can shrink that as well.

My swedes are on average 1.5 moa rifles.  Some do a little better..my M41 sniper for one and my AG42.

Finn mosins are also good shooters...I have two m28/30s that are <2 moa with handloads.

Some guns are just shot out and won't do anything...

So in short..." It depends"

Link Posted: 1/4/2020 1:01:41 PM EDT
I think it looks good.  I had Garands with worn out muzzles.   I recrowned them and the groups went from 6” to 2-3”
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 2:11:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BDA:
Good. Very good.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BDA:
Good. Very good.
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
I think it looks good.
Thanks.

Originally Posted By Jeremy2171:
Basic answer is ~ 4 moa with milsurp ammo for all milsurp rifles.
That's been my experience. I thought it was my shooting, though. Thanks for the info.

Gratuitous pic of the responsible rifle:
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 4:57:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2020 4:58:28 PM EDT by Deadtired]
Safely hitting the backstop you're shooting into is the bare minimum for an old milsurp.  Anything beyond that is gravy.

I say your group is perfectly fine for the vast majority of milsurp guns out there.  I'd imagine there are many old .mil rifles that couldn't do much better fresh from the factory.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 9:47:29 PM EDT
Quite good OP, especially from a less than ideal rest.

IIRC the only European milsurps with a factory accuracy standard of less than 2 MOA are the GP11 rated Swiss rifles, Swedish Mausers, and the later Finns.
Link Posted: 1/5/2020 12:16:45 AM EDT
Meh, personally, I don't care...I don't shoot my collectible rifles, hell I don't even look at the bore when I buy them...

Collectible rifles is for collectin'...If I want to shoot, I'll shoot my SCAR or AR's...
Link Posted: 1/5/2020 2:57:55 PM EDT
3MOA is about what I expect from any milsurp with notch type iron sights.  Anything better is awesome.  If it shoots worse then I start to investigate why.  Before shooting the most I do is a good cleaning and checking the tightness of the action screws.  If that doesn't fix it, then I look at stock contact points, barrel condition, and crown condition.  I've rarely gotten one where the barrel is completely shot out or beyond hope.
Link Posted: 1/5/2020 6:17:12 PM EDT
Only rifles I have had do better... MOA... was a Swedish Mauser 6.5 and a Arisaka 7.7.

They are not the norm.

My K.31 will shoot 2-3 if I do my part from a bench. For me, Garands are about the same.
Link Posted: 1/5/2020 8:40:19 PM EDT
With decent loads I generally do a bit better with my Garrand or A3-03 but they both have appeture sights.

With anything with a notch mounted 12 or 15" away from my old ass eyes I couldn't expect to do nearly as good as the OPs
decent shooting.

With the stainless Ranch Rifle I once owned I would be lucky to have a couple of holes on paper after a 30 round mag
Link Posted: 1/6/2020 12:02:10 PM EDT
It really does vary between rifles... On average I've seen about 3-4 MOA out of good quality examples. Even my Mosins shoot 1.5-2 MOA after some shimming and fitting.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 12:44:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2020 12:49:54 AM EDT by bigstick61]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jeremy2171:
Basic answer is ~ 4 moa with milsurp ammo for all milsurp rifles.

Some rifles...like Swiss and swedes do half that or less.... easily.

Handloads can shrink that as well.

My swedes are on average 1.5 moa rifles.  Some do a little better..my M41 sniper for one and my AG42.

Finn mosins are also good shooters...I have two m28/30s that are <2 moa with handloads.

Some guns are just shot out and won't do anything...

So in short..." It depends"

View Quote
Apparently, the accuracy standard for the m/28-30 involved the following:

-10 shots fired from a rest by a capable marksman at 300m

-the best 8 shots had to fall within a circle with a 15cm radius measured from the MPI, which would be 3.44 MOA

-at least 4 of those 8 shots had to fall within a circle with a 7.5cm radius measured from the MPI, which would be 1.72 MOA

-if a rifle inspected (4% of rifles were randomly chosen for inspection) could not do the above, it was not accepted for service

Supposedly, the average m/39 inspected was slightly more accurate than the average m/28-30 when tested to the same standards.

I'm not a good enough shot to be able to shoot up to my m/39, yet.  At 500m a couple of months ago, my 20-shot group was 5.74 MOA extreme spread, 3.76 MOA mean radius.  The rifle is almost on for windage, though.  MPI was only a little over 2" to the right of my POA in that plane at 500m.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 10:59:15 AM EDT
I shot a few postal matches over on gunboards back in the day and 3" - 4" would be a good average. The guys winning the matches mostly were reloaders and had dialed in their rifles very well. Most winners at that time were Swiss , Swede, other mausers , and some 03A3's with a smattering of M39's. I placed 13th one year with a Brazilian 08 in 7mm with a average group of 2.25. I could never get that now with iron sights as my eyes are getting a bit tired these days.
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