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Posted: 4/11/2022 5:22:04 PM EDT
ATF has made their final ruling on 80% receivers.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/rulemaking/final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-frame-or-receiver-and-identification/download
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 5:35:11 PM EDT
[#1]
My attention span drifts away after about 5 pages.  Has anyone condensed it yet?
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 5:39:37 PM EDT
[#2]
I tried to read it all I could make out was FATF & FJB.
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 5:41:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 5:51:56 PM EDT
[#4]

Link Posted: 4/11/2022 6:03:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
My attention span drifts away after about 5 pages.  Has anyone condensed it yet?
View Quote

Become Ungovernable.
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 6:08:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Interestingly, it's not as draconian as I expected.

P80's are out as currently sold. They may be available in 6+ months with no jig.

80% AR lowers may not change.

Serialization of any PMF that goes through a dealer is the main hit.
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 8:13:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Interestingly, it's not as draconian as I expected.

P80's are out as currently sold. They may be available in 6+ months with no jig.

80% AR lowers may not change.

Serialization of any PMF that goes through a dealer is the main hit.
View Quote


Makes almost any firearm part a firearm, just as any part that can be made in to a suppressor, is a suppressor.

80% frames/receivers must be serialized and transfer by a FFL because they are receivers after this is in the registry.

FFL must retain all 4473s until they cease being FFLs then turn them into the ATF, no longer can 4473 be destroyed after 20 years. This so they can trace guns regardless when they were sold. (Gun registry, quite illegal)

That is the cliff notes
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 8:20:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Makes almost any firearm part a firearm, just as any part that can be made in to a suppressor, is a suppressor.

80% frames/receivers must be serialized and transfer by a FFL because they are receivers after this is in the registry.

FFL must retain all 4473s until they cease being FFLs then turn them into the ATF, no longer can 4473 be destroyed after 20 years. This so they can trace guns regardless when they were sold. (Gun registry, quite illegal)

That is the cliff notes
View Quote
Did you read it? IMO it doesn't say aluminum 80's are out. But anything sold with a jig certainly is. It does say companies have to submit their proposed notagun for ATF to review and it must include everything that will be sold with it + salea documentation. Then ATF will review and approve.

I think aluminum 80's are going to stay (or something close to 80's) but companies like 5d may not be allowed to sell them. ATF may prevent any pocket milling, which is a pain. They may also prevent the front/rear takedown holes.
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 8:25:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Final? Doubtful, but I like your enthusiasm.
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 8:29:08 PM EDT
[#10]
This is blatantly outside the scope of the ATF's rule-making authority.
Link Posted: 4/11/2022 8:40:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is blatantly outside the scope of the ATF's rule-making authority.
View Quote
What else is new
Link Posted: 4/12/2022 10:22:35 AM EDT
[#12]
They can go fuck themselves. I prepared years ago.
Link Posted: 4/13/2022 9:41:44 AM EDT
[#13]
You can skip all the bull shit and go straight to page 291 for the final rules.
Link Posted: 4/13/2022 10:42:25 AM EDT
[#14]
But I do not care what they think the law is. They are not the arbiters of freedom and can fuck off.
Link Posted: 4/14/2022 10:30:21 PM EDT
[#15]
I don't care what they say the rules are.
The real rulebook says shall not be infringed.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 12:35:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Did you read it? IMO it doesn't say aluminum 80's are out. But anything sold with a jig certainly is. It does say companies have to submit their proposed notagun for ATF to review and it must include everything that will be sold with it + sales documentation. Then ATF will review and approve.

I think aluminum 80's are going to stay (or something close to 80's) but companies like 5d may not be allowed to sell them. ATF may prevent any pocket milling, which is a pain. They may also prevent the front/rear takedown holes.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Makes almost any firearm part a firearm, just as any part that can be made in to a suppressor, is a suppressor.

80% frames/receivers must be serialized and transfer by a FFL because they are receivers after this is in the registry.

FFL must retain all 4473s until they cease being FFLs then turn them into the ATF, no longer can 4473 be destroyed after 20 years. This so they can trace guns regardless when they were sold. (Gun registry, quite illegal)

That is the cliff notes
Did you read it? IMO it doesn't say aluminum 80's are out. But anything sold with a jig certainly is. It does say companies have to submit their proposed notagun for ATF to review and it must include everything that will be sold with it + sales documentation. Then ATF will review and approve.

I think aluminum 80's are going to stay (or something close to 80's) but companies like 5d may not be allowed to sell them. ATF may prevent any pocket milling, which is a pain. They may also prevent the front/rear takedown holes.


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized and transferred through a FFL, recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually). So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead. The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022. If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal. The reason I say proposal is it is not final if the Senate rejects it, but that has a slim chance because 17 August is before the mid-terms and the anti-gunners have the majority at this time. ATFs stance is you don't like it, take them to court and maybe in 10 to 20 years you can have it overruled, look at the bump stock litigation right now.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 12:59:20 PM EDT
[#17]
What about current unserialized receivers?
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 1:15:42 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
What about current unserialized receivers?
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Does not effect them until a gunsmith works on it or you sell it.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 1:26:09 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:


Does not effect them until a gunsmith works on it or you sell it.
View Quote


Thanks!
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 1:31:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Its all Horse shit.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 1:46:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Is is too late for a Polymer 80 with jig?  If not, where to find?

Link Posted: 4/16/2022 2:34:07 PM EDT
[#22]
For the 80% question, here is the part of the ruling, from ATF site:

4. Partially Complete, Disassembled, or Inoperable Frame or Receiver

This third supplement would define “frame or receiver” to include “in the case of a frame or receiver that is partially complete, disassembled, or inoperable, a frame or receiver that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to a functional state.” To determine this status, “the Director may consider any available instructions, guides, templates, jigs, equipment, tools, or marketing materials.” For clarification, “partially complete” for purposes of this definition “means a forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body, or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it is clearly identifiable as an unfinished component part of a weapon.”

This supplement addresses another core challenge of the existing, definition of firearm “frame or receiver;” namely, that it does not address the question when an object becomes a frame or receiver. While the GCA and implementing regulations define a “firearm” to include the “frame or receiver,” neither delineates when a frame or receiver is created. The crucial inquiry, then, is the point at which an unregulated piece of metal, plastic, or other material becomes a regulated item under Federal law. ATF has long held that a piece of metal, plastic, or other material becomes a frame or receiver when it has reached a critical stage of manufacture. This is the point at which a substantial step has been taken, or a critical line crossed, so that the item in question may be so classified under the law. This “critical stage of manufacture” is when the article becomes sufficiently complete to function as a frame or receiver, or may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to accept the parts it is intended to house or hold.[53]

Clarifying this issue is needed to deter the increased sale or distribution of unlicensed and unregulated partially complete or unassembled frames or receivers often sold within parts kits that can readily be completed or assembled to a functional state.[54]

Many kits that include unfinished frame or receivers have been sold by nonlicensees who were not required to run a background check or maintain transaction records. Accordingly, prohibited persons have easily obtained them.[55]

Moreover, without any markings, they are nearly impossible to trace. Although this addition is intended to capture when an item becomes a frame or receiver that is regulated irrespective of the type of technology used to complete the assembly, frame or receiver molds that can accept metal or polymer, unformed blocks of metal, and other articles only in a primordial state would not—without more—be considered a “partially complete” frame or receiver. However, when a frame or receiver is broken or has been disassembled into pieces that can readily be made into a frame or receiver, or is a partially complete frame or receiver forging, casting, or additive printing?[56]

that has reached a stage in manufacture where it can readily be made into a functional frame or receiver, that article would be a “frame or receiver” under the GCA.

In other words, if it looks like a receiver or frame then it is then regulated and requires a background check.

Link Posted: 4/16/2022 2:41:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Someone set us the bomb.....

All my rights are belong to me!
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 2:50:23 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
Is is too late for a Polymer 80 with jig?  If not, where to find?

View Quote


P80 is now sold without jigs and serialized, can be bought from an FFL.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/polymer-80-aft-pfc9-build-kit-black-p80-pfc9-aft-blk.html
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 2:59:25 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:


P80 is now sold without jigs and serialized, can be bought from an FFL.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/polymer-80-aft-pfc9-build-kit-black-p80-pfc9-aft-blk.html
View Quote


"The AFT (Assemble For Thyself) kit by Polymer 80 is designed with the home builder in mind."

I loled.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 3:17:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized and transferred through a FFL, recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually). So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead. The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022. If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal. The reason I say proposal is it is not final if the Senate rejects it, but that has a slim chance because 17 August is before the mid-terms and the anti-gunners have the majority at this time. ATFs stance is you don't like it, take them to court and maybe in 10 to 20 years you can have it overruled, look at the bump stock litigation right now.
View Quote
I recommend you re-read it, because it's extremely clear that AR15 uppers are not considered firearms. There is a specific reply to a comment in support of the original reply that states ATF still doesn't consider aluminum lowers with no machining or indexing in the fire control pocket to be firearms. IIRC it's somewhere around page 120.

The new rules suck and will hopefully get tossed in court.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 3:40:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is is too late for a Polymer 80 with jig?  If not, where to find?

View Quote

Sounds like there's time before it goes into effect and a google search reveals 80% stuff still for sale around the web. Some say it only impacts all inclusive kits. Others say even 80% receivers by themselves will have to be serialized. The wording isn't clear and that's likely intentional. I'd assume the worst.

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/04/new-regulation-regarding-unfinished-frames-and-receivers-unveiled/
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 3:41:43 PM EDT
[#28]
I expect P80's will no longer be sold with jigs. You may also have to purchase locking blocks separately.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 4:54:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I expect P80's will no longer be sold with jigs. You may also have to purchase locking blocks separately.
View Quote
This.  You'll likely still be able to get P80s unserialized.  You'll have to buy the jig and parts kits separately though.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 5:41:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I recommend you re-read it, because it's extremely clear that AR15 uppers are not considered firearms. There is a specific reply to a comment in support of the original reply that states ATF still doesn't consider aluminum lowers with no machining or indexing in the fire control pocket to be firearms. IIRC it's somewhere around page 120.

The new rules suck and will hopefully get tossed in court.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized and transferred through a FFL, recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually). So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead. The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022. If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal. The reason I say proposal is it is not final if the Senate rejects it, but that has a slim chance because 17 August is before the mid-terms and the anti-gunners have the majority at this time. ATFs stance is you don't like it, take them to court and maybe in 10 to 20 years you can have it overruled, look at the bump stock litigation right now.
I recommend you re-read it, because it's extremely clear that AR15 uppers are not considered firearms. There is a specific reply to a comment in support of the original reply that states ATF still doesn't consider aluminum lowers with no machining or indexing in the fire control pocket to be firearms. IIRC it's somewhere around page 120.

The new rules suck and will hopefully get tossed in court.


After more research, uppers may or may not be exempt, example the 50BMG upper for an AR-15 is considered by ATF to be a firearm and transferred via 4473, that may have been a test for the new rules or just an opinion by ATF at the time for just that upper. I no longer trust ATF rulings as what is legal today, changes tomorrow. Also, just as the bump stocks were by executive order from President Trump, this is generated by no less than three executive orders by President Biden (It is in the final rules document). We will see how this plays out.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 5:48:18 PM EDT
[#31]
ATF told a company about a decade ago their .50BMG upper is considered a firearm. Oddballs like that are probably considered their own firearm in most cases. But regular AR15 uppers remain mail order items.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 5:54:39 PM EDT
[#32]
PFFT.  FAFT

All this shit is illegal, not authorized by legislation. But as stated they don't give a shot and no one wants to be the test case arrest by 100 feebs and 100 doj lawyers with unlimited budgets.

Still, become ungovernable. Buy up a shitload now.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 1:51:17 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized
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Quoted:


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized

No, they don't.




and transferred through a FFL,

No, they don't.
If and when built into a firearm frame or receiver, THEN they must be marked with a serial# by the FFL who acquires it.





recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually).

ATF doesn't get my 4473's until I go out of business. After twenty years I can destroy them.
For those building guns from an 80%........who cares? You built the gun, transferred it through an FFL who serializes it and off it goes to a buyer who will fill out the 4473 with his info. Why do you care about that 4473?





So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead.

Some like to build period. Having a firearm witout a serial# makes some people happy.
Frankly, most 80%'s look like hot garbage to me and I'll never buy one.


The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022.

Horseshit.




If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

Nope. Know how we know you haven't read, much less understand what ATF is proposing?


And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal.

It's not confusing.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 1:55:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
PFFT.  FAFT

All this shit is illegal, not authorized by legislation.
View Quote

Yet, it is.....Administrative Procedure Act
It's  part of any gov agencies rulemaking authority.


Link Posted: 4/20/2022 2:04:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Summary of Final Rule 2021R-05F Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms
Summary of Final Rule 2021R-05F
Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms

On April 11, 2022, the Attorney General signed ATF final rule, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations by removing and replacing the regulatory definitions of “firearm frame or receiver” and “frame or receiver” using examples and diagrams to clearly convey what is a “frame or receiver,” amending the definitions of “firearm” and “gunsmith,” providing definitions of terms such as “complete weapon,” “complete muffler or silencer device,” “privately made firearm” and “readily,” and amending regulations on marking and recordkeeping.  The following is a summary of the final rule, but is not intended to be relied on when complying with the requirements of the final rule:

Definition of “Frame or Receiver”
Addresses technological advancements and judicial developments since the regulatory definitions were originally set forth in 1968 and 1971.

Identifies only one part of a firearm to be the “frame” or “receiver” that requires a serial number. It is the part that provides housing or a structure for one specific, primary fire control component of weapons that expel a projectile; or one specific, primary internal sound reduction component of firearm mufflers or silencers.

Definition of a “frame or receiver” includes a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may quickly and easily (“readily”) be made to function as a “frame or receiver” and expressly excludes a block of metal, liquid polymers and other raw materials or a frame or receiver that has been destroyed.

Grandfathers in existing classifications of frames or receivers (to include split frames or receivers) and allows them to be marked in accordance with the existing requirements.

Partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frames or receivers, including parts kits, that ATF did not classify as “frames or receivers” prior to the rule will not be grandfathered in under the final rule and will need to be re-evaluated.

Licensed manufacturers or importers are required to abide by the new marking requirements only for new firearm designs.



Other Related Definitions
Amends the definition of:
“firearm” to clarify when a firearm parts kit is considered a “firearm,” and
“gunsmith” to clarify the meaning of that term and to explain that gunsmiths may be licensed as dealers (without being a manufacturer) solely to mark firearms for unlicensed persons.
Includes those engaged in the business of identifying firearms for nonlicensees, increasing access to professional marking services for privately made firearms (PMFs).
FFL dealers (in addition to FFL manufacturers and importers) may adjust or repair and return the firearms, including PMFs, without taking them into inventory, if returned to the person from whom the firearm was received on the same day.
Non-FFLs may mark PMFs for a licensee if done under the licensee’s direct supervision.
FFLs may adopt existing serial numbers, including adopting the unique identification number previously placed on a PMF by a nonlicensee, under certain conditions.

Provides definitions for:
“complete weapon,”
“complete muffler or silencer device,”
“privately made firearm (PMF),” and
“readily.”


Importer and Manufacturer Marking Requirements and Records
For new firearm designs, manufacturers must mark the frame or receiver of such weapon with either the serial number and their name and city and state or their name and the serial number beginning with the abbreviated federal firearms license number. Classifications of frames or receivers that are grandfathered in under the final rule will continue to be allowed to be marked in accordance with its existing requirements.

Complete non-National Firearms Act weapons, and frames or receivers of such weapons intended to be distributed separately, must be marked within seven days from completion of the entire manufacturing process for the weapon, device, or part, as the case may be, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner.

Complete National Firearms Act weapons and devices, and machineguns and muffler or silencer parts must be marked no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the weapon or device, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner.

The records of manufacture/acquisition and disposition by manufacturers and importers must be consolidated into one book similar to dealers.  The rule codifies, in part, ATF Ruling 2016-3, Consolidation of Required Records for Manufacturers and ATF Ruling 2011-1, Importers Consolidated Records, that allow licensed manufacturers and importers to consolidate their records of acquisition and disposition without obtaining a variance.


Privately Made Firearms (PMFs)
Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) that choose to take into inventory PMFs are required to mark and record PMFs within 7 days of the firearm being acquired by a licensee, or before disposition, whichever first occurs.

If FFLs have PMFs in their inventory, they will have until 60 days after the rule becomes effective to mark them.  FFLs would have the option to mark their existing PMFs themselves, contract with another FFL, such as a gunsmith, or directly oversee a non-FFL who can perform such engraving services on PMFs. Alternatively, FFLs may deliver or send PMFs to ATF for disposal, or destroy them in accordance with ATF guidance.

There is no requirement in the rule for FFLs to accept a PMF into inventory, and they have the option to ask the PMF maker or owner to have the firearm marked by another licensee before accepting it into inventory or the FFL can bring the PMF to another FFL or unlicensed engraver to mark the PMF with their license information, provided they directly oversee the serialization.


Record Retention
FFLs must retain their Firearms Transaction Records, Forms 4473, and acquisition and disposition records until they discontinue their business or licensed activity. The rule also allows for paper records older than 20 years to be stored at a separate warehouse or electronically in accordance with a forthcoming ATF Ruling. The separate warehouse is considered part of the licensed premises and subject to inspection.
Last Reviewed April 11, 2022
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Link Posted: 4/20/2022 2:21:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 2:34:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when it took the Congress to make a law.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 6:33:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

No, they don't.

Rule on uncompleted frames/receivers:

The final rule amends the supplement to the proposed definition of “frame or
receiver” entitled “partially complete, disassembled, or inoperable frame or receiver” by:
(1) replacing the term “inoperable” with the more accurate term “nonfunctional”;
(2) clarifying that this supplement also addresses frame or receiver parts kits;
(3) explaining what it means for a frame or receiver to function as a frame or receiver;
(4) removing the definition “partially complete,” and, instead, expressly excluding from
the definition of “frame or receiver” forgings, castings, printings, extrusions, unmachined
bodies, or similar articles that have not yet reached a stage of manufacture where they are
clearly identifiable as an unfinished component part of a weapon (e.g., unformed blocks
of metal, liquid polymers, and other raw materials); (5) clarifying the items that the
Director may consider when classifying a partially complete, disassembled, or
nonfunctional frame or receiver; and (6) providing detailed examples of what would and
would not be a “frame or receiver” that may readily be completed, assembled, restored,

So unless it is raw materials and does not look like a frame or receiver, it is a firearm frame or receiver.





No, they don't.

If it has a serial number and classified as a regulated item, then yes it does.

If and when built into a firearm frame or receiver, THEN they must be marked with a serial# by the FFL who acquires it.






ATF doesn't get my 4473's until I go out of business. After twenty years I can destroy them.

New rule:

J. Record Retention
This rule finalizes with few changes the proposed requirement in part 478 that all
licensees retain their records until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on
paper or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business or
collection premises readily accessible for inspection. The final rule made changes to
§ 478.50(a) to make clear that the warehouse for storage of firearms or ammunition
302




inventory may also be used for the storage of records over 20 years of age. The
warehouse may not be used to conduct other business activities, which would require a
separate license and fee. 18 U.S.C. 923(a).

You can not destroy 4473s older than 20 years, they have to be stored at a warehouse until you go out of business then sent to ATF.

For those building guns from an 80%........who cares? You built the gun, transferred it through an FFL who serializes it and off it goes to a buyer who will fill out the 4473 with his info. Why do you care about that 4473?






Some like to build period. Having a firearm witout a serial# makes some people happy.
Frankly, most 80%'s look like hot garbage to me and I'll never buy one.



Horseshit.

You are correct, it is up to the director if uppers are serialized, as of right now they are not. Wait until someone takes a dislike to a belt-fed upper and that will change too.





Nope. Know how we know you haven't read, much less understand what ATF is proposing?

Once again, I am going off the deep end, only receivers and frames are effected by the final rules.



It's not confusing.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized

No, they don't.

Rule on uncompleted frames/receivers:

The final rule amends the supplement to the proposed definition of “frame or
receiver” entitled “partially complete, disassembled, or inoperable frame or receiver” by:
(1) replacing the term “inoperable” with the more accurate term “nonfunctional”;
(2) clarifying that this supplement also addresses frame or receiver parts kits;
(3) explaining what it means for a frame or receiver to function as a frame or receiver;
(4) removing the definition “partially complete,” and, instead, expressly excluding from
the definition of “frame or receiver” forgings, castings, printings, extrusions, unmachined
bodies, or similar articles that have not yet reached a stage of manufacture where they are
clearly identifiable as an unfinished component part of a weapon (e.g., unformed blocks
of metal, liquid polymers, and other raw materials); (5) clarifying the items that the
Director may consider when classifying a partially complete, disassembled, or
nonfunctional frame or receiver; and (6) providing detailed examples of what would and
would not be a “frame or receiver” that may readily be completed, assembled, restored,

So unless it is raw materials and does not look like a frame or receiver, it is a firearm frame or receiver.




and transferred through a FFL,

No, they don't.

If it has a serial number and classified as a regulated item, then yes it does.

If and when built into a firearm frame or receiver, THEN they must be marked with a serial# by the FFL who acquires it.





recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually).

ATF doesn't get my 4473's until I go out of business. After twenty years I can destroy them.

New rule:

J. Record Retention
This rule finalizes with few changes the proposed requirement in part 478 that all
licensees retain their records until business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on
paper or in an electronic alternate method approved by the Director, at the business or
collection premises readily accessible for inspection. The final rule made changes to
§ 478.50(a) to make clear that the warehouse for storage of firearms or ammunition
302




inventory may also be used for the storage of records over 20 years of age. The
warehouse may not be used to conduct other business activities, which would require a
separate license and fee. 18 U.S.C. 923(a).

You can not destroy 4473s older than 20 years, they have to be stored at a warehouse until you go out of business then sent to ATF.

For those building guns from an 80%........who cares? You built the gun, transferred it through an FFL who serializes it and off it goes to a buyer who will fill out the 4473 with his info. Why do you care about that 4473?





So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead.

Some like to build period. Having a firearm witout a serial# makes some people happy.
Frankly, most 80%'s look like hot garbage to me and I'll never buy one.


The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022.

Horseshit.

You are correct, it is up to the director if uppers are serialized, as of right now they are not. Wait until someone takes a dislike to a belt-fed upper and that will change too.




If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

Nope. Know how we know you haven't read, much less understand what ATF is proposing?

Once again, I am going off the deep end, only receivers and frames are effected by the final rules.


And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal.

It's not confusing.


As far as PMFs here is the rule on serializing them:

E. Definition of “Privately made firearm”
The final rule makes minor changes to the proposed definition of “privately made
firearm” in part 478 to make it consistent with the changes to the definitions of “frame or
receiver” and “importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number,” and for clarity regarding the
exclusion for pre-October 22, 1968 manufactured firearms.

That means they have to be marked as per GCA 1968 rules.

You can have a PMF, and technically you have 7 days to mark it but it is not illegal to have an un-serialized PMF, however if you take it to a gunsmith and they do not return it to you by the close of the business day, it will be marked with a ATF approved serial number.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 7:00:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


As far as PMFs here is the rule on serializing them:

E. Definition of “Privately made firearm”
The final rule makes minor changes to the proposed definition of “privately made
firearm” in part 478 to make it consistent with the changes to the definitions of “frame or
receiver” and “importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number,” and for clarity regarding the
exclusion for pre-October 22, 1968 manufactured firearms.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


As far as PMFs here is the rule on serializing them:

E. Definition of “Privately made firearm”
The final rule makes minor changes to the proposed definition of “privately made
firearm” in part 478 to make it consistent with the changes to the definitions of “frame or
receiver” and “importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number,” and for clarity regarding the
exclusion for pre-October 22, 1968 manufactured firearms.

That's not the definition of "Privately made firearm".



That means they have to be marked as per GCA 1968 rules.

True.

You can have a PMF, and technically you have 7 days to mark it

An FFL has seven days.....not a nonlicensee.


but it is not illegal to have an un-serialized PMF,

Well which is it?
First you say "technically you have 7 days", now "it is not illegal to have an un-serialized PMF".

I think you need to take a deep breath and reread the regulation.




however if you take it to a gunsmith and they do not return it to you by the close of the business day, it will be marked with a ATF approved serial number.

True.

Link Posted: 4/20/2022 7:31:41 PM EDT
[#40]
The biggest issues with the rule are indefinite retention of 4473's (so those older than 20 years right now should be destroyed before the rule makes that impossible), and the new definition of "readily" which means anything from 12 minutes to an entire 8hr work day in a fully functional machine shop.  The court cases they cite are there for a reason.  Think about how "readily" converted will change with this new definition, and what that will affect...  

This needs to be blocked by the courts.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 7:40:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when it took the Congress to make a law.
View Quote




And yet you flunked Civics.  This is a rule, not a law.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 8:18:50 PM EDT
[#42]


If you read it backwards, at double speed, they are saying they still intend to shoot your dog.
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 2:32:06 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




And yet you flunked Civics.  This is a rule, not a law.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when it took the Congress to make a law.




And yet you flunked Civics.  This is a rule, not a law.


Yet the ATF will arrest people based on violations of their BS made up rule
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 3:12:58 AM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  Yet the ATF will arrest people based on violations of their BS made up rule
View Quote


Yes.  And the EPA will sue on violations of their made up rule.  And the FAA & FCC will fine people based on violations of their made up rule.  That's how the Federal gov't has worked for more than a century.
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 6:48:28 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Makes almost any firearm part a firearm, just as any part that can be made in to a suppressor, is a suppressor.

80% frames/receivers must be serialized and transfer by a FFL because they are receivers after this is in the registry.

FFL must retain all 4473s until they cease being FFLs then turn them into the ATF, no longer can 4473 be destroyed after 20 years. This so they can trace guns regardless when they were sold. (Gun registry, quite illegal)

That is the cliff notes
View Quote
Check out my stack of unserialized  M240s.


Link Posted: 4/25/2022 7:23:38 AM EDT
[#46]
Page 207


Department ResponseAs an initial matter, the Department notes that

nothing in this rule requires private individuals to mark their personally made (non-NFA) firearms or to present them to licensees for marking.


Nothing in this rule requires licensees to accept PMFs into inventory, mark PMFs with the name of the private maker, or record the maker's name as the "manufacturer" of the firearm. This rule requires only that PMFs voluntarily taken into inventory by FFLs be marked with a serial number prefixed with the licensee's abbreviated license number and for the FFL to record the acquisition information. This requirement allows the PMF to be traced directly to the licensee, not the private maker, if later used in a crime.


Link Posted: 4/25/2022 7:33:20 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Does not effect them until a gunsmith works on it or you sell it.
View Quote
I thought you can't sell a private made firearm, especially without serial numbers.
That's what I've always heard. That you can make them for personal use only.  
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 7:40:32 AM EDT
[#48]
Done with ATFE, I've played their game for over 50 years.
I'm going with the constitution from now on.
If I end up in prison so be it, at least I fought a good fight for freedom and still alive.
This shit has gone on way to long.
The ATFE and anyone following or pushing their shit can kiss my old ass.
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 8:02:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  I thought you can't sell a private made firearm?
That's what I've always heard. That you can make them for personal use only.
View Quote


You can't make them to sell.  If in 5 years your buddy at the range wants to buy it from you, have at it.  Start cranking out cast lowers or welding AKs together & selling them at a booth at the next gun show will draw significant ATF attention.
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 8:13:12 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized and transferred through a FFL, recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually). So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead. The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022. If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal. The reason I say proposal is it is not final if the Senate rejects it, but that has a slim chance because 17 August is before the mid-terms and the anti-gunners have the majority at this time. ATFs stance is you don't like it, take them to court and maybe in 10 to 20 years you can have it overruled, look at the bump stock litigation right now.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Makes almost any firearm part a firearm, just as any part that can be made in to a suppressor, is a suppressor.

80% frames/receivers must be serialized and transfer by a FFL because they are receivers after this is in the registry.

FFL must retain all 4473s until they cease being FFLs then turn them into the ATF, no longer can 4473 be destroyed after 20 years. This so they can trace guns regardless when they were sold. (Gun registry, quite illegal)

That is the cliff notes
Did you read it? IMO it doesn't say aluminum 80's are out. But anything sold with a jig certainly is. It does say companies have to submit their proposed notagun for ATF to review and it must include everything that will be sold with it + sales documentation. Then ATF will review and approve.

I think aluminum 80's are going to stay (or something close to 80's) but companies like 5d may not be allowed to sell them. ATF may prevent any pocket milling, which is a pain. They may also prevent the front/rear takedown holes.


No 80% receivers are not out, they have to be serialized and transferred through a FFL, recorded on a 4473 which is retained for eternity by the ATF (Eventually). So what are the incentive to completing a 80% receiver if you can buy a completed receiver for petty much the same cost or less
(Companies have stripped lowers on sale a lot of times for $50 to $60) So the 80% receiver is basically dead. The rules have changed to make uppers and slides firearms also and subject to a 4473 and background check, so uppers or slides can no longer be shipped to your residence, but to a dealer after 17 August 2022. If you want to build a homemade gun after the rules are in place you will have to machine all the parts, receiver, fire control, and bolt or slide from scratch because they want all separate fire control parts under the definition of a firearm, subject to regulation.

And yes, I read the whole confusing and redundant final rule proposal. The reason I say proposal is it is not final if the Senate rejects it, but that has a slim chance because 17 August is before the mid-terms and the anti-gunners have the majority at this time. ATFs stance is you don't like it, take them to court and maybe in 10 to 20 years you can have it overruled, look at the bump stock litigation right now.



Wrong
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