AMSEC vs Ft Knox vault doors? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AMSEC vs Ft Knox vault doors?

Posted: 12/30/2017 11:30:56 AM EDT

Getting close to building a new home with a vault. I have an AMSEC safe and I like it, but I don't like that their doors seem to be from their lower product line. Ft Knox has more options but seems to be more expensive as well. Anyone have opinions?

Posted: 12/30/2017 1:29:21 PM EDT

[#1]

Tagged. I’m in the market as well.

Posted: 12/30/2017 2:04:24 PM EDT

[#2]

I deal with custom built doors from AMSEC on a regular basis. Not always my first choice, but sometimes a good option for the dollars spent.

I sell an awful lot of their BF doors, which are 1/2" plate. I have them built up to 1.5" plate, or in composites equal to their TL-15 and TL-30 AMVAULTs.

Posted: 12/30/2017 4:03:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Who do you think has the best $5k vault door on the market?

Posted: 12/30/2017 4:07:47 PM EDT

[#4]

A used 1970's or 1980's bank vault door that somebody was paid to remove. Most of us don't keep much of this on hand because the demand is virtually zero, and it cost more to remove than what you would sell it for. But on occasion somebody will pay to have one removed, and it would be for sale.

You'll have to have heavier construction to mount it, but some will go on regular 12" walls without much issue.

On the new side you're not going to get anything spectacular for $5K. The AMSEC BF comes in just under $4k, and with the 1/2" construction is comparable to others that cost thousands more. Any of the bargains you find online are bargains for a reason.

Posted: 12/30/2017 6:58:51 PM EDT

[#5]

I know some here with disagree but a friend of mine just installed a door from Smith Security Safes. He did a lot of research and talked to a bunch of people. It's a really stout door. 1" thick steel. Relockers. Custom fit easy to install frame. I helped install it (he hired a guy recommended by Smith that was really good). It was just under $5,000. I've been researching this to death and this is what I'm going to go with as well. I seriously looked at the Graffunder and AMSEC. Ft. Knox was nice too but I liked the others better. The Graffunder and AMEC are better quality but for the large difference in price, I'm pretty sold on the Smith. I can't imagine anyone without some serious equipment and lots of time getting through this thing.

Hope that helps.

Posted: 12/30/2017 8:12:21 PM EDT

[#6]

I have seen the inside of a Smith. Anybody can waterjet a steel plate, add bondo and paint and make something that looks nice. It's what's under the hood that counts, especially with safes and vault doors. This is why it is very difficult for somebody who builds these things to keep somebody out when they aren't experienced safe crackers themselves. How can you keep somebody out if you don't know what keeps you out?

Posted: 12/30/2017 9:58:57 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have seen the inside of a Smith. Anybody can waterjet a steel plate, add bondo and paint and make something that looks nice. It's what's under the hood that counts, especially with safes and vault doors. This is why it is very difficult for somebody who builds these things to keep somebody out when they aren't experienced safe crackers themselves. How can you keep somebody out if you don't know what keeps you out?

View Quote

There are various threads where you have made vague insinuations about the quality (and internal design) of Smith vault doors. It appears you have some inside knowledge or information about Smith vault doors that nobody else has?

There are several members of this forum that are very happy with their products from Smith and continue to recommend him. Please enlighten us on the details, as many people are looking for genuine feedback about a potential large purchase and vague responses create confusion.

I do not have any products from Smith or know much about them, but when someone "in the know" consistently makes negative statements about a product that has a positive following, details are very helpful.

Can you provide any professional feedback on what the shortcomings are? Genuinely curious...

Posted: 12/30/2017 10:47:24 PM EDT

[#8]

I have to be vague, and I can not post photos. Anybody can read this, and anybody using Google can find this thread. If I named any specific weaknesses any potential bad guy doing his homework may get tip or two.

That aside, anybody that has one can pull the rear cover and take a look at what is inside. The few that I have seen have been crazy. Cannon fuse "relockers" and some weird pivoting bolt work connected loosely with several other nuts and bolts. Burglary aspect aside, lots of areas where something could go wrong from wear, tear, and even general use. There is a reason that some products cost twice as much as others. When you see these bargain priced options, that is why.

Posted: 12/30/2017 11:48:30 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have to be vague, and I can not post photos. Anybody can read this, and anybody using Google can find this thread. If I named any specific weaknesses any potential bad guy doing his homework may get tip or two.

That aside, anybody that has one can pull the rear cover and take a look at what is inside. The few that I have seen have been crazy. Cannon fuse "relockers" and some weird pivoting bolt work connected loosely with several other nuts and bolts. Burglary aspect aside, lots of areas where something could go wrong from wear, tear, and even general use. There is a reason that some products cost twice as much as others. When you see these bargain priced options, that is why.

View Quote

Thank you for the reply. Not asking for photos, just more specific feedback to help understand the nuances of your statements. Also, not asking for "hints" on how to break into a safe or vault door, members just want to be able to make an informed decision on a large purchase like this. We all appreciate the information.

In my limited knowledge of Smith's doors, it honestly doesn't seem like they are all that cheap. A few forum members have mentioned what they paid and it certainly doesn't sound cheap ($4-$6k). The website shows some lower end doors that are pretty cheap, but if you look at their website, most of their decent spec'd doors are quite expensive.

Some time ago, a friend of mine was quoted $4400 for a Ft. Knox door and I believe Smith was more expensive for a similar spec'd door. Maybe their higher end doors have better relockers/mechanicals?

Thanks again and I certainly appreciate the info.

Posted: 12/31/2017 11:38:20 AM EDT

[#10]

a1abdj appears to be an expert in the subject. I am not. I am however, a reasonably intelligent guy (at least I like to think so). I have spent many hours researching this for my own project. I have seen in person the Smith, Ft. Knox, AMSEC, Graffunder, Browning, Pentagon, Prosteel and Sturdy doors. IMHO, the Graffunder was the nicest. That said, I am a value shopper and for well over half the cost, the Smith seemed like a great value to me. I would have forked up the dough for the Graffunder if I thought it was necessary.

I really looked over the Smith door during the installation. I just can't see how anyone outside the guys from the Italian Job are getting through that without some serious equipment and hours of work.

Is it the best? No. But it seems like the best value to me. I'd rather take the $5,000 - $10,000 difference and use it elsewhere.

Posted: 12/31/2017 2:41:19 PM EDT

[#11]

I just can't see how anyone outside the guys from the Italian Job are getting through that without some serious equipment and hours of work.

View Quote

And that's the exact same reason that the best safes and vault doors are designed and built by those with experience breaking into them. Because those who build them without that experience also can't see how anyone can do it........but yet they can.

It happens. Even some very respected names in the business have had moments where they produced something with a major flaw that was soon exploited. In the gun safe side of the business I see many examples of this. If I were a bad guy, and destruction didn't concern me, I could be into many of these safes in just a few minutes. Which is why I don't point out what those weaknesses are. I don't want any bad guys getting any ideas they don't already have.

Posted: 1/5/2018 6:17:53 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

And that's the exact same reason that the best safes and vault doors are designed and built by those with experience breaking into them. Because those who build them without that experience also can't see how anyone can do it........but yet they can.

It happens. Even some very respected names in the business have had moments where they produced something with a major flaw that was soon exploited. In the gun safe side of the business I see many examples of this. If I were a bad guy, and destruction didn't concern me, I could be into many of these safes in just a few minutes. Which is why I don't point out what those weaknesses are. I don't want any bad guys getting any ideas they don't already have.

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I sure appreciate your contribution here. Thanks a million.

Posted: 1/14/2018 11:33:22 AM EDT

[#13]

What kind of rooms are you guys putting these doors in? What is the construction and strength of the walls?

Posted: 1/14/2018 12:47:25 PM EDT

[#14]

From experience, most of the rooms (walls) are built heavier than the doors being placed on them. 8 to 10 inch concrete walls are the most common. Whatever matches the foundation.

Posted: 1/14/2018 7:00:56 PM EDT

[#15]

That's the part I'm having a hard time understanding. Guys are spending so much money on the vault door. Have you ever seen a gas powered concrete saw, and how fast it can cut an opening in a poured concrete or concrete block filled wall. With doors like that, the walls become the week link.

Posted: 1/14/2018 7:47:00 PM EDT

[#16]

A 14-inch circular blade on a cut-off saw is good for slightly less than five inches; so good for a drive way or side walk but not a thick wall. If your walls are in the 8-12 range a chainsaw or ring saw would work but those are not that common around here and most stuff that can cut that deep would be a pain in the ass on a wall.

Once you are thick enough that you are more likely to run into a core saw or jackhammer on excavator, I think you have reached the point of diminishing returns for security.

Posted: 1/14/2018 8:07:48 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
That's the part I'm having a hard time understanding. Guys are spending so much money on the vault door. Have you ever seen a gas powered concrete saw, and how fast it can cut an opening in a poured concrete or concrete block filled wall. With doors like that, the walls become the week link.

View Quote

If you have the type of stuff in your vault that you're attracting that type of criminal you aren't using a light residential door hung from a foundation wall. Seeing that your average gun safe is 1/8", a 1/2" plate door hung on an 8" concrete wall is putting you miles ahead of where you were.

Posted: 1/30/2018 7:54:40 PM EDT

[#18]

My plan is to have a concrete vault (all four sides, floor and ceiling) with a vault door, and then a decent quality safe completely encased in concrete (except for the door, of course) inside the vault for the highly valuable stuff.

In my mind, it's all about layers. Keep putting enough layers of security in, and eventually whoever is attacking runs out of time.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AMSEC vs Ft Knox vault doors?

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