50. I zero my rifles at 50/200 and my purpose is to practice not have a battle ready PCC so your results may vary.

Huh? 50/200 Yards? For 9mm Luger?

I like 20/85.

20/85 ballistics

No, I zero my rifles as in 5.56 at 50/200. My PCC is for practice and thus I stick with the 50 yard zero. Only time I'm using PCC is sub 100 anyway.

HK SP5. 50ft zero is on at 100yard.  124gr subsonic @ around 1050fps

this is 100 yard hit on plates

Attached File

Good video to watch

My C5 zero'd at 25 yards makes perfect hits at 100 yds.  That is with 115 grain fmj.

Attached File

@viralinsurgency:
Is that a new frontier armory upper and lower.

8654

@8654

Yes, the NFA C-5 lower and slick side upper.  Love this rig.  Always preferred HK curved mags over Colt or Glock for PDW's.

Sorry for delay.

@viralinsurgency

No worries. I’m new to the 9mm AR. Other than the special lower and upper to fit the MP5 mag, is there anything special about the BCG, barrel, etc.? Do you have to use their BCG, barrel, hand guards?

8654

https://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator

Use this

Nope.  This one is a mutt.  Just about every piece from a different manufacturer.  Any blowback 9 mm bolt will do.  This one is a Faxon.  Any barrel will do.  Just get the NFA upper and lower or you would need to mill out both to accept the mag.  Some get uppers that have LBHO devices, but mine just ends with a closed bolt at the end of the mag, like a MP5.  You can also get ones that have side charging on the left side of the upper or on the left side of the handguard.  I just used a cheap no name handguard I had taken off an AR pistol.  

Be sure to use lock tight on the ejector and the feed ramp.  They each only have one screw, and will shake loose otherwise.

I zero'd my Scorpion POA to POI at 75 Yards (the furthest I figure I'd ever take a shot at anyThing with a PCC 9mm.)

I was pleasantly surprised that with 115gr Blazer Aluminum (it's most accurate/consistent favorite) was hitting within about an inch of the 75 Yard Zero'd distance even still @ 150 Yards... and still hits solidly close to center mass elevation still even at 200 yards on my Steel Silhouettes without a smidge of a hold-over with its Vortex 3x Spitfire.

I haven't tried 250-300 Yard shots yet with same 75 Yard Zero, same ammo but will attempt soon. A mild hold over above dead center of Silhouette should yield still firmly solid center Silhouette Hits with sane 115 gr Blazer Aluminum Cased Ammo... An 8" barrel seems to be the sweet spot barrel length for 9mm's with factory 115-124grain 9mm loads from my experience. Of course test the ammo/gun and POA/POI with your load of choice to verify as with everything YMMV...

I shoot at a range that has steel from 100-1100Yards.

I primarily use a Ruger PCC with multiple types of 115g factory loads on the range for the kids. We usually don't have any problem hitting out to 200-250yards with zero shifts in point of aim. 50/200yard zero.

Just use open sights and the gun is used as a nice jump for the kids before getting into 5.56.

The only time I had large drop problems was shooting lightly loaded reloads. Was having about a 10-15in drop over factory ammo at 250 yards.

Edit: pretty sure I zeroed it at 100yards....

9mm PCC, 9mm pistol with RDS, I zero at 50, then back to 25 yards (why? because its easier to see any windage error at 50 yards and correct it on a RDS).
10mm and 454 a zeroed at 50 yards.

Great point on windage corrections.  I zero PCCs at 25 and have confidence (and practice) in hitting anything in a reasonable PCC range (with minor hold adjustments as needed).

I thought I was the only one. I do this with so many things. An 1/8 of an inch at 25 yards might become 2 or 50.

Your not the only one.
Lots of people have analytical thought processes
As a child my favorite word was " WHY?" or so I am told. ( I am sure I have some OCD thrown in there too)
Anyway your not alone

With 115 gr XTPs or HAPs at 1450 fps in my MP5, I zero it at 100 yards.

With a 100 yard zero and a 2.5” sight height for its Holosun H5507C sight:

25 yards = 0
50 yards = +1.3
60 yards = +1.5 (maximum mid range trajectory)
75 yards = +1.2”
100 yards = 0
125 yards = -1.8”
150 yards = -9”
175 yards = -16”
200 yards = -25”

———

Given a maximum mid range trajectory of just 1.5” at 60 yards there is no reason to zero a sub gun, PCC or PDW (however you want to use or define it) at less than 100 yards.

I suspect many people who haven’t actually served misunderstand that a 25 meter or 50 meter “zero”  just gets you in the general ball park and that you need to confirm the actual point of impact at your desired zero distance.

That’s no doubt aggravated by the fact that many people only have access to 25 yd or 50 yard indoor ranges.

I have been shooting PCC's for nearly thirty years. I have seen more discussions on what range to zero than I can count. I zero my 9mm PCC's at 25 yards. I can then check this at other distances just to be sure all is well. Note that 25 yard zero should also (depending on load) put you on target at 100 yards and have very minor variations at shorter ranges as is clear in the numbers.

I grew up learning to "adjust for range" or "hold over".  This was from varmint hunting back on the farm where you could shoot a small target (rat or ground hog, etc) at anything from fifty feet up to two hundred or more yards. You had to be quick! Later in the Army these skills were put to use on the range where those pop-up targets would be up and down quickly anywhere from 25 to 300 yards. ( Qualified "Expert" on rifle, carbine, auto rifle and machine gun).  

Some want to zero at a certain range where they might be commonly shooting. That seems OK on the surface but it keeps you from learning how to determine distance and hold over or under correctly. I am "old school" and believe a real marksman knows how to quickly determine range and adjust point of aim quickly. He knows his firearm and the ammo he is using and how it will perform in the real world.  He understands ballistics and how to use them to full advantage. But then I am old and when I grew up we had to do all of these calculations in our head based on experience.

I zero my MP5 at a 100 yards for a number of reasons and I zero my iron sighted firearms at fairly close to the longest range I expect to shoot them at.

With an MP5 a 100 yard zero also produces very close to a 25 yard zero, but the longer 100 yard zero gives you much higher confidence in both elevation and windage than shooting for zero at 25 yards and then shooting at 100 yards or more.  We agree on these points but let’s address your second paragraph.

If you are using iron sights at any distance beyond your zero range you’ll quickly discover that the front sight blade obscures the target.  Consequently you are not only forced to estimate hold over, but you are also forced to estimate the hold over relative to a target and intended impact point you can no longer see.

Model 1894, Model 1892, AR-180, AR-15/M16A1,  Mini-14, Galil, Colt 6450, it’s all pretty much the same, if I choose a zero that’s close to my mid range, I’ll always be obscuring all or part of the target at longer ranges.  

On the other hand if I zero close to my maximum intended shooting range, then when I shot at shorter distances, I am just holding “under” the intended impact point.  I can use the target itself for better hold over estimation, and if my range estimate is off, the error will be less holding under, than holding over at longer ranges.

Consider for a minute this Mini 14, with a 16” barrel and a receiver mounted sight that is not rapidly adjustable for elevation.   It’ll produce a 5 shot 1.5 MOA group with Hornady 55 gr  FMJBT hand loads loaded to the same velocities M193 would achieve in the same 16” barrel right around 3000 fps.



It’s a solid 300 yard rifle and I zero it at 275 yards.   It’s
2” high at 50 yards,
4” high at 100 yards,
5” high at 150 yards (the maximum mid range trajectory),
4” high at 200 yards,
2” high at 250 yards,
0 at 275 yards,
2.5” low at 300 yards, and
5” low at 325 yards.

It’s a nice symmetrical trajectory that’s easy to remember.  

Better yet, there’s a nice wide band between 100 and 200 yards where the trajectory doesn’t vary more than an inch, and a band from 50-250 yards where it doesn’t vary more than 3”.  Hold a couple inches under from 50 to 250 yards and you won’t ever be far off.  On a 6” plate hold dead on from 0 to 325 yards and you are on target.


Beyond 350 yards it is 9” low at 350 and 18” low at 400.  Again fairly easy to remember, but the target will be covered by the front blade.

With that same rifle and ammo if I zero at 100 yards it’s laser like to 100 yards:

0.5” low at 25 yards,
0 at 50 yards,
0.1” high at 75 yards,
0 at 100 yards,

But it’s down hill from there.

1.2” low at 150 yards
4” low at 200 yards,
8” low at 250 yards
15” low at 300 yards
19” low at 325 yards.

For a 300 yard rifle it’s all obscured targets and hold over after 100 yards and after 200 yards it rapidly becomes significant hold over.   No point blank shooting on a 6” plate to 325 yards with that set up.

We also occasionally shot our M16A1s on US Army train fire courses with pop up targets from 25m to 350m.  If I recall correctly they were head  and shoulders sized targets out to 100 yards and torso sized targets beyond that.


——

In terms of the M16A1, we’d use the short range aperture with a 250m zero out to 300m and then flip it to the long range aperture for the less common 350 to 375m shots.   But it was the same basic concept, zeroing for close to your intended maximum range to give you a very forgiving mid range trajectory and long point blank trajectory with a little hold under if you wanted more precision, and not much hold over at your maximum range.  The M16A1  just added a flip sight  long range aperture to squeeze another 75m out of it.

It’s worth noting though that we had small apertures in both the short and long range sight arms, rather than a much largely low light aperture in the short range sight arm.