After stocking up on each im curious what everyone else would do here, wanna keep on hand around 2k rounds of a good choice. Those two being the 77tmk and the 70tsx. I'll be shooting both from a 16.5" barrel, after loading both I'm able to get the tmk to 2650 with cfe223 and rl15 and the 70tsx to 2930 with rl15(26.2 grain),Both shoot moa. Ain't talking crazy but be used for peace of mind for defense, hunting will be done with something bigger unless Shit would ever get real crazy. Any ideas?

What are you asking, which of the two bullets to stock up on?

I like Nosler 77s. They fly well for less money.

Yes which would you choose? How do the noslers do for expansion? Getting good velocitys with them?

I would go with the TMK's. I've done a lot of load developement lately and can't get CFE223 to work for me. I'm a fan of IMR 8208 for match type loads and 748 w/ 55gr hornady for anything within 300 yards. The 55's are cheap and will shoot further than 300, just a low bc.

Guess that's what I'm asking, hard to argue the .420 bc of the tmk but for another 300fps would the Barnes be the better option for under 500 yards? What kinda speeds are you getting outta the tmks with any of your loads?

I load my match bullets for accuracy, and 2515fps is what works for my 1:7 WOA 18" SPR barrel. 2515 is not fast, but i can ring steel to 700 yards in gas gun matches.

I would chose neither.

I would (and did) go with the Hornady 75 gr HPBT-M bullet loaded to 2550 fps.  This did reasonably well in the Ammo Oracle testing for self defense applications.

This bullet is less expensive than the TMK and is equally accurate at all rational distances.  If you are shooting longer range matches (600+ yards), it is less than optimal but does work.

Dont get me wrong, I love me some match bullets, but Hornady 55gr SPs in bulk with CFE 223 powder.  Cheap bullets, good performance, and its easy to spin them up by the 1000's with a progressive on the cheap.  Now that they changed them to a boat tail, they are a ton easier to load.

And before anyone says "body armor oh my god!" remember that if you run into someone wearing body armor that is rated for rifle, you have bigger issues.  And if you want to talk average engagement range?  300 is about the average youll see anyway, and these bullets will be fine at probably out to 400 or 500.  If you need to shoot further?  Get a bigger gun in a caliber that is designed to make consistent shots at 500+.

Agree with you 100% and have gone that route, but along the way I've loaded several higher end choices in smaller amounts and narrowed it down to the two mentioned. And given the choice if I was to carry a couple mags full I'd take one of them. Not arguing but would you take the 55 grain soft points over a match or like bullet?

I chose to go the route of 62/64 grain fusions, gold dots and TBBC's. American Reloading, RMR, Everglades, etc. has them on sale from time to time. Very inexpensive to build a several thousand round stockpile.
They have taken deer and hog easily, and I expect they would suffice in any SHTF situation as good as anything else.



TBBC

Im not a fan of using match bullets to shoot at anything other than steel or paper.  My go to for a match bullet is a 68gr Hornady BTHP.  I would take a SP type bullet over a match bullet anyday for just general self defense and hunting.

What Im really looking for doesn't exist though.  As KTM points out, lots of companies are making decent 62gr bullets, and they arent terrible.  What Im looking for is a bullet from 68-77gr that I can load mag length, with construction like an Interlock or an SST.  A bullet like that would fit an all around self defense, hunting roles without being crazy expensive.  Maybe with the advent of 224 Valk, we will see renewed interest in designing heavier hunting type projectiles again for the .224 caliber from bullet manufacturers.

How about the nosler 70 grain accubond? Other then price how do you think it'll stand up against the rest at 556 velocities?

I think they would be fine, but pricey.  At that price I think Id rather shoot something like a Swift Scirocco 75gr though.

I have been looking for the "best" expanding bullet for my sbr's for a while and came across this the other night it pertains...

If this claim is true and real expansion occurs down to or even subsonic I would certainly spend some money on TSX bullets.

Any info on distance to game?

If hunting was out of the question I would go with the 77 TMK. However, like may here, I like the 55gr SP for "buy it cheap and stack it deep" kind of loading.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, guess I should just load a thousand or two up of both tmk and tsx? Both seem like a popular choice, and keep stacking the 55 soft points. Gonna have to try the tmk out on a larger animal this summer and see how it compares to the tsx. Hard to imagine a bullet that fragments and blows apart (tmk) will do as well as one that expands(tsx). As far as having a Barnes not open up, I've read online about it but after using them and seeing them used on deer sized game I've never actually seen it happen.

I would never take a TMK hunting for anything larger than coyotes. However, bullets that fragment quickly do kill faster on a broadside shot. It's when you don't get a broadside shot that things start to get hairy. Barnes are notoriously slow killers because of the near 100% weight retention, but they'll kill it from just about any angle every time.

So what would you choose for a fast kill on a tough 4 or 2 legged creature? From a 556 too

So which is better? Fragmentation with less penatration or exspansion with better penatration?

I'd imagine better penetration for heavier game. The rapidly expanding and fragmenting bullets are geared toward varmint hunting, such as woodchucks and coyotes.

That's what I was thinking too but with so many going with the tmk I'm second guessing myself. Am I missing something?

Here's a link to a lot of performance info on ammunition.  It has pistol and rifle ammunition, so you'll have to filter it.

77 SMK, 77 TMK, 75 HPBT-M, all sorts of other things, too.

Link

The issue I see in this discussion is wanting a single do it all round - hunting with all possible angles of entry, light game, heavy game, self defense with and without barriers,...

Eventually, over-penetration has to be mentioned for the self defense context.  The solution to that issue conflicts directly the desire for deep penetration in hunting ammo.

That’s why I like the Tipped TSX (TTSX) bullets.

62gr TTSX for my AR is my hunting round but I do love the 77gr TMK.

At Midway, the 77gr TMKs are 32 cents ea whereas the 62gr TTSX are 56 cents...on sale for 50 cents right now.

Much cheaper on the wallet per 1000ct to go with Tipped Match Kings, which is why I have only a few hundred TTSX and a ton of TMKs

And as for hunting, there are pictures out there on the Google of 77gr TMK penetration/destruction on a gel block and on deer.  Shouldn’t be worried about hunting with a TMK

I'd stick with the TMK if it's going to be mostly for HD and range use. They're excellent bullets, just not my ideal hunting bullet. They'll work if you need them to.

Leave both at the dealer and buy a bunch of serria 65gr GK's and be done with it.

Helping with dennyd's suggestion:

GameKing Bullets: All bullets in this classification are for hunting and all have boat tails. Their shapes include hollow point boat tail (HPBT), spitzer boat tail (SBT), and full metal jacket boat tail (FMJBT). The bullets in this classification have medium to heavy weights in each caliber. With their boat tail shapes, they have high ballistic coefficients, retain their velocities well, and resist crosswinds and vertical winds well as they fly. These bullets are designed for a combination of penetration and expansion in medium and heavy game animals for their calibers.



Caliber = 0.224
Weight = 65 gr
Sectional Density = .185 gr/sqin

Ballistic Coefficient
0.303 @ 2750 fps and above
0.297 between 2750 and 2450 fps
0.293 between 2450 and 2150 fps
0.287 between 2150 and 1150 fps
0.270 @ 1150 fps and below

I think you are touching on the same issues I raised, above.  The OP seemingly wants a bullet that does it all - short and long range hunting; deep penetration on tough animals; don't 'pencil-through' smaller game; good match-grade accuracy AND self defense (inherently close range and desire to not over-penetrate).  Add to that distances out in the 300 to 400 yard range,...

Jack of all trades is a master of none.

In the Ammo Oracle testing for 223, the top match bullets did well because they reliably penetrated and then fragmented, with at least one piece remaining large enough to get some penetration.  None had super long penetration, which is undesirable for self defense.

This differs from what I think was expected (a surprise) and what I have seen for 30 caliber match bullets (which tend to stay in one piece and not mushroom).

This is an image of a ballistic gelatin test of the 77 TMK.  I could be wrong, but under conventional self defense conditions, this is probably ideal.  Conventional meaning no body armor, relatively short range, etc.



Many of the excellent photos of the gelatin tests were lost thanks to PhotoBucket.  But here's an artist's rendition comparing the Hornady 75 gr HPBT-M to other common self defense choices.  The Ammo Oracle web pages require a lot of reading but they are WELL worth it, as they cover both rifles and handgun applications, show the data and actually dare to make fact-based recommendations.

Dano, Your talking some mighty long range shooting, for whitetail's it isn't going to happen with me unless 200 yds or less.

I have taken lots whitetails with Hornady's 55gr sp and they have done a decent job, esp behind the shoulder shots, but not all whitetail are standing still

when you pull the trigger, i don't take a chance with a quick expanding bullet with whitetail for this reason, a self defense bullet might flatten a deer,

esp. standing broadside and you don't yank the shot and hit bone. Extreme long range, well maybe for antelope and in the open plains where you can see and follow a blood trail forever things are different, but I would still pick the 65GK, it's still going to open up at long range enough, it's made to open up at slower speeds.

For whitetail around here, for an all around bullet, I still would pick a 65gr serria GK, I could also pick Nosler partition "sp, or

Winchester's 64 gr, and some other's. But like I said my rifles are 1 in 9 twist, that's the way I like them, I am a coyote hunter also, so I like shooting

a lighter bullet for them , and the 52gr Hornady match are my favorite for yotes. Nothing over 69gr's for me, they shoot great, and might shoot long range like your talking and open up, but I don't do that so I don't worry about it. Yotes longer ranges are a thing, but the 52gr match do a heck of a job for that.

Some of these other bullets I mentioned groups are not braggers, so I stick with my 65 and 55gr Hornady, they shoot bugholes, I like bugholes.

Shooting pretty little groups like the 65GK, I also like 69 gr Match bullets, and 52 gr match. I am not worried about a bullet opening, I think more

about a bullet staying together, the little 55gr Hornady sp does a pretty good job of it, it's for varmint's but it stays in one piece long enough to get the job done

most of the time on WT's. When I switched to the GK I seen they were better, but I could survive on Hornadys 55gr sp real easy.  And they shoot pretty little groups, ha.

Just have to be a little careful with your shots at WT deer, lots of time they are moving, running, standing quarting you or away. And then you get the close one's.

10-50yds away, no way you want a HP or blitz type bullet when this happens.  So you just pick your poison. Not everything is perfect for every type of shot.

So what for all around bullet? Depends on the person, the gun, what your hunting and where. Hope I never have to pick just one.