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Posted: 3/17/2020 5:16:32 PM EDT
I have spent WAY too much time trying to find reliable, authoritative load data for 5.45x39, only to come up empty time after time. And I find it interesting that even though Hornady now makes dies, brass Boxer primed cases, and bullets for this cartridge, they don't have any load data for it...
The best information I've found wasn't even load data, but an off hand reference to another cartridge and how similar it is to the 5.45. The other caliber? .222 Remington. It has similar external ballistics with similar bullet weights, and a similar case capacity. People often reform .222 cases to make 5.45 cases. So my thought is to start load development for the 5.45 with starting loads for .222 Remington. I have Hornady's 60 grain V-MAX bullets, so I figured I'd start with Hodgdon's data for .222 Remington with the .224" V-MAX bullet and BL-C(2) and/or CFE223. I would appreciate a sanity check on this plan, and any hands-on experience others have had in developing loads for this cartridge. |
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Posted: 3/17/2020 6:33:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Just looked at Hodgdon's. Wow no data. Maybe give them a call 1-913-362-9455.
You approach sounds sensible to me, just a guy who has read countless post on the subject. |
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Posted: 3/17/2020 8:55:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Since Hornady makes the products, I figured they'd have data... Nope. When I emailed them for data, the reply was: "Thank you for your email. I will forward your request to our lab for consideration." Not encouraging.
Calling Hodgdon was a great suggestion! In looking for Hodgdon's telephone customer service hours, I came across their "email us" page, so I've contacted them that way. And I did similarly with Western Powders. Western gave me data on True Blue in .32 Auto, so I'm hoping they either have some data squirreled away somewhere, or they'll look into developing some. I'll follow up with what I hear from both. |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 12:02:24 AM EDT
[#3]
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USA
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Posted: 3/18/2020 10:13:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
[#4]
Got dies and a Lee bullet sizer years ago along with 100 Lapua .222 Rem cases and never did anything with them.
When the Hornady Black ammo came out I grabbed 200rds for grins. Have had a note on my phone for years with a few threads from the AK Files and S12 forums which may be of value now. Take the below at your own risk, but it seems like the folks who've been doing it since before the Hornady offerings came about were plenty safe and have provided some useful information: https://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144529 https://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44231 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/81058-545x39mm-reloading-for-the-deer-hunter/ |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 4:17:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks, Tower.
I got a reply from Western Powders: Glenn,
Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources. Caliber: 5.45x39 Russian. Powder: AA2230 Bullet weight: 55grains. .223 bullets Start load: 20.0 grains Maximum load: 23.5grains NOTES: It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load. If possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data. Don W. CSR Western Powders Inc. 406-234-0422 |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 8:12:14 PM EDT
[#6]
I can't find any references to CFE223, but I did find one by Marc on the Saiga-12 forum for H335. He was using sized down 64 grain Winchester Power Point bullets with a COAL of 2.140.
He loaded from 19.8 to 22.0 and then went beyond to 23.0 and was getting 2604 fps. His range report wasn't great with 5" groups, but he didn't run into any load development difficulties. H335 is very easy to work with and easy to get hold of, so it sounds like another good candidate. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/81058-545x39mm-reloading-for-the-deer-hunter/ Based on 222 loadings near 60 grains and the similarities to 5.45x39, many of those same powders are also good candidates. |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 8:56:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RegionRat:
Based on 222 loadings near 60 grains and the similarities to 5.45x39, many of those same powders are also good candidates. I'm hoping the similarities between 222 and 5.45 will at least give me a starting point. |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 9:08:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Oh, I forgot to add that I have a Lee bullet sizing die to size .224 bullets down for 5.45. Unfortunately they seem to come out a tad small. It turns out that "0.220" is just a bit below the actual size needed.
So I'm starting to think about how to open up that die. Maybe valve grinding compound on an undersized dowel? 7/16 is just a little under .220, so maybe? Thoughts? |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 11:05:55 PM EDT
[#9]
None of my Lee sizing dies sized bullet to the diameter marked on the die. They were all too small.
Easy fix, chuck up a 3/16 dowel in a drill with 400 then 600 grit wet and dry sandpaper and ream the inside of the dowel. Fine Dremel saw blade to cut a kerf into the end of the dowel so it will hold the sandpaper. Wrap paper through cut then around the dowel. If you put in on backwards you can tell right away. Check often, sizing a bullet as you can't put material back. Good luck |
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Posted: 3/19/2020 12:00:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Following.
I have cut down cases, Ch4d dies and thats it so far. 
Maybe thats what I'll do next week. Punch a hole in a blank Die I have laying around. 
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KS, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2020 12:03:51 AM EDT
[#11]
I experimented with 5.45 a few years ago with the hornady 60 gr vmax. There was no real data so I used 221 fireball data as a baseline to work up from. The case capacity of the 5.45 is a little higher but the 221 is a good place to start. I had decent luck with 2520 for accuracy and velocity. It has been long enough that I will have to go back and look to see my data. I was forming 223 down to 5.45 and lost quite a few brass sizing down. The new hornady brass should make reloading for this round much easier and I am sure more reliable data will follow.
I still have several hundred bullets to load, so I am happy that hornady is going to supply brass. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/19/2020 8:43:50 AM EDT
[#12]
Haven't used my Lee bullet sizer, so no clue if it drops a spot on .221" diameter bullet or not, but what about just using unsized .224" projectiles and realizing you'll just need to drop the powder charge down a bit to start with?
Seems like it would be similar to firing COMBLOC .311" diameter 7.62x39 ammo in the Mini-30 with a US .308 diameter bore. I've read the Mini-30 had a throat specifically designed to help swage down the .311" projectiles, which an AK-74 won't have. Just an idea if grinding/sanding on a Lee bullet sizing die isn't wanted. Welcome other's input on the notion |
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Posted: 3/21/2020 6:55:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Thanks for the details, dryflash3. The little investigating I have been able to do was on the “very cautious” side, recommending something like the “slip fit” sized dowel and grinding compound. I don’t mind cautious, but the idea of removing a micron at a time and having to check the fit was daunting.
Both the Hornady and pulled bullets - as well as the one 7n6 I pulled to compare to the pulls I bought - mic at 0.2215 +/- a very fine hair. The .224 bullets I sized in the .220” Lee die mic at .220” +/- that very fine hair. So it doesn’t look like the die needs much work, but while I’ll be cautious, I won’t be as timid as the Intarwebs suggested. On a related note, I still can’t find Hornady’s #56 shell holder available anywhere. But it turns out that the head of the 5.45x39 is pretty close to the .32-20, .25-20 and .218 Bee, so I’m about to buy a Hornady #7 shell holder. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/24/2020 11:17:24 PM EDT
[#14]
I was one of the guys messing with reloading for 5.45x39 over on AKfiles several years ago.
The general consensus was to split the difference between .221 Fireball and .222 because 5.45x39 is right in the middle of those. I did find that the loads I tried in this manor seemed to be good starting loads. I played with it a little, but I didn’t go too far down the rabbit hole. I did however have a load that would cycle reliably in several rifles. Obviously at the time, converting brass was the only option. I didn’t have the whole annealing thing figured out, so I kinda stopped working on it. I figured that was a lot of work to put into brass to have it not last-though I never managed to “wear out” any. Shooting them from an AK-74 variant, you’re always far more likely to lose them than wear them out. Since factory brass is finally available(yay!!) I won’t go into the details of converting brass-other than I used .223/5.56 and .222 for this purpose. The notes I have handy are showing that I loaded resized 55gr fmjs with 16.3gr IMR 4198. It was a pretty mild load. It didn’t fling the brass anywhere near as far as factory ammo did. But I didn’t get around to chrony-ing it to be able to give you a velocity. I also tried some resized SS109/M855 bullets. I can’t remember if I just went with the same powder load or not. I was really just testing the idea so I didn’t do much with those. I did load some of the “blems” that were available then(quite obviously 60gr Hornady). Again, I can’t remember if I just used the same charge or not. I’ll take a look out in the shop tomorrow and see if I had anything else on those. |
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Posted: 3/24/2020 11:30:15 PM EDT
[#15]
@mace2364 What diameter did you work down to, and was that a sizing die you bought or one you modified?
Thanks in advance. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/24/2020 11:46:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mace2364]
[#16]
Ok, so I bought those dies in a group buy on AKfiles directly from Lee, and part of the deal was a .221 sizing die. With the obvious exception of the already correct sized Hornady bullets, I just run the bullets through it and use them. Never had a problem.
ETA: I never needed to modify the sizing die. |
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Posted: 3/24/2020 11:54:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Many thanks mace.
I'll slug my bbl and also try to keep real close to 7N6 diameter that works very well for me. I get really great accuracy on an AR platform with that surplus ammo and it cost me next to rimfire prices. Gotta love it. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/25/2020 12:10:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Hey no problem. I’m happy to see interest in the round. I’m interested to see what loads you come up with yourself.
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Posted: 3/25/2020 8:06:45 PM EDT
[#19]
I got my Hornady #7 shell holder yesterday, and I got a chance to check it out today.
It is a pretty good fit for the Hornady 5.45 brass. I’m still working on getting case headspace sorted out. I have a math nerd friend I’m going to throw the problem at; I am looking for a datum circle that fits one of the Hornady headspace comparator inserts so I can properly adjust my sizer die. |
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Posted: 3/25/2020 8:10:49 PM EDT
[#20]
I would think you would use the same one as 223. 330 IIRC.
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Posted: 3/25/2020 9:07:00 PM EDT
[#21]
The insert is only part of the problem. What distance is appropriate from case head to datum circle is another.
I’m currently looking at the 0.330 bushing - it looks like the best choice. The shoulder is 6.29mm (0.247”) at the top and 9.25mm (0.346”) at the bottom. That puts .330 nearer the bottom of the shoulder, but comfortably so. So what it comes down to is just how far from the case head that 0.330” circle should be. I kinda know how to do that math, but it’s been long enough since I did any of it that I’d feel sketchy about my results. |
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Posted: 3/25/2020 10:12:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Well if you have factory brass measure it, as you know it will be shorter than your chamber.
Then you will have to have fired cases from your chamber to get the exact numbers. If the new factory cases have good neck tension, load them, don't over think this. Get fired brass. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 8:23:36 PM EDT
[#23]
There you go, talking sense...
I’ll start up some loading of these guys soon, though I don’t know when I’ll be able to get to the range to test them. And I followed your advice and opened up my Lee bullet sizing die. I went through 4 bullets before I got to 0.2213”, which is close enough to the factory diameter for me. It was indeed super easy. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 10:37:54 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: There you go, talking sense... I'll start up some loading of these guys soon, though I don't know when I'll be able to get to the range to test them. And I followed your advice and opened up my Lee bullet sizing die. I went through 4 bullets before I got to 0.2213", which is close enough to the factory diameter for me. It was indeed super easy.  |
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Posted: 3/28/2020 10:16:02 AM EDT
[#25]
I’ve decided I’m not going to just toss the undersized “sized down” .224 bullets. If nothing else, they’ll help me with making dummies. And I have plenty of these bulk bullets - I bought a bunch of “repackaged” bullets from Midway quite a while back, and sort of lost them in my stash...
I got a very consistent base to 0.330 bushing length for the Hornady factory brass. I’m going to look at my 7N6 factory ammo too, just for a benchmark for complete ammo. Since I only have one barrel in this caliber I’m not too worried about “staying within standards,” but I am curious about where my chamber sits in relation to the CIP standards. |
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Posted: 3/28/2020 6:32:08 PM EDT
[#26]
I had to use brass cases to get a reading on my chamber's shoulder datum length. Steel cases didn't behave the same for me in terms of getting readings off the once fired brass.
My platofrorms are AR based as compared to CommBloc MilSurp and were chambered by folks who would normally work on an AR. I honestly don't know what the chamber specs were for an AK-74, but now that you mention it, that would be interesting to compare to the cartridge specs. I'll put that on the ToDo list soon. All this new Hornady Brass would be a good data point to take as well, and I can get that now. I'll grab a caliper and get to that soon, then report back. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2020 11:10:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Hey if you’re looking for cheap 5.45 bullets:
https://hi-techammo.com/products/5-45-x-39-55-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-bullets-222-dia-100-bullets |
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Posted: 3/29/2020 11:39:55 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mace2364: Hey if you’re looking for cheap 5.45 bullets: https://hi-techammo.com/products/5-45-x-39-55-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-bullets-222-dia-100-bullets I found them a little while back and bought 5 packs. They are very cleanly pulled and don’t seem to have remnants of sealant on ‘em. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2020 5:54:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: I found them a little while back and bought 5 packs. They are very cleanly pulled and don’t seem to have remnants of sealant on ‘em. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: Originally Posted By mace2364: Hey if you’re looking for cheap 5.45 bullets: https://hi-techammo.com/products/5-45-x-39-55-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-bullets-222-dia-100-bullets I found them a little while back and bought 5 packs. They are very cleanly pulled and don’t seem to have remnants of sealant on ‘em. When seated are they the same length as normal 5.45 60 gr ammo? There was some 55 gr wolf ammo that had issues due oal. |
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Posted: 3/29/2020 6:15:24 PM EDT
[#30]
As far as I can tell, these are 7N6 bullets. I pulled one from the stash of 7N6 I had and compared that with the pulls I bought. They look the same, and they weigh the same. Same profile, same finish. I am pretty sure these are 7N6 bullets, so they’ll seat appropriately.
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WA, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2020 6:04:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Well I just made some test rounds.
Using IMR 3031 and Hornady bullets And CFE223 and actual 5.45 60 gr FMJ bullets. Based my measurements off of the .222 .222 26.9 grains of water 5.45 27 grains of water. I haven't made it the range yet to test them. I dont remember the loads off hand. Also plan on testing H335, Xterminator ,TAC, |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2020 6:08:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: On a related note, I still can’t find Hornady’s #56 shell holder available anywhere. But it turns out that the head of the 5.45x39 is pretty close to the .32-20, .25-20 and .218 Bee, so I’m about to buy a Hornady #7 shell holder. GRAF AND SONS. Received my #56 holder |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2020 6:25:38 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: As far as I can tell, these are 7N6 bullets. I pulled one from the stash of 7N6 I had and compared that with the pulls I bought. They look the same, and they weigh the same. Same profile, same finish. I am pretty sure these are 7N6 bullets, so they’ll seat appropriately. These are 60 grain bullets. 7n6 are 53 grains. Cut one open, see if a steel rod is present. |
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Posted: 3/31/2020 9:15:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: As far as I can tell, these are 7N6 bullets. I pulled one from the stash of 7N6 I had and compared that with the pulls I bought. They look the same, and they weigh the same. Same profile, same finish. I am pretty sure these are 7N6 bullets, so they'll seat appropriately. So when you are in this forum, go to MY TOPICS and click and this thread will appear. Helpful a month from now if a question arises and this thread is back on page 3 or 4. |
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Posted: 4/1/2020 6:00:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 223to45: These are 60 grain bullets. 7n6 are 53 grains. Cut one open, see if a steel rod is present. I’ll have to review what I got and my 7n6 pulled bullet. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 3:29:09 PM EDT
[#36]
I finally got a chance to re check my 7n6 rounds. I have pulled two bullets and weighed them carefully. They are 59.9 and 59.7 grains. But...
It turned out that the ones I’d pulled were NOT 7n6, they were commercial. The cases looked the same, except for the headstamps. So I dug out actual 7n6 and (after a long struggle) pulled a bullet. It weighed 53.17grains. The shape and length is identical to the commercial bullets. The way I see it, the commercial bullets don’t have the air space that the 7n6 bullets do, accounting for the 6+ grains difference in weight. I also took the time to measure the shoulders of a bunch of cases. I measured the 10 cases I’d kept from firing in my AR upper, 10 brand new Hornady cases, and 10 loaded commercial rounds. I was surprised at how different they were. More data to follow... |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 4:00:12 PM EDT
[#37]
The extra weight comes from the pure lead core.
Lead is denser than steel, so if you fill the same volume of space with lead instead of a steel core it weighs more. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 4:17:23 PM EDT
[#38]
If I had the ability, (i.e. the right tools), I'd section one of the commercial bullets to see.
Anyway, at least I know what's up now, and that the pulls are NOT 7n6. |
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Posted: 4/17/2020 10:12:15 PM EDT
[#39]
When pulling bullets on a mil round, seat bullet a tad deeper to break the seal/crimp.
Will pull easy then. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 9:35:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1Devildog]
[#40]
You may find these sectioned 5.45x39mm cartridges of interest. I did these a while back, so they may not reflect the most recent imports, but the variations between manufacturers seem to be consistent.
 Attached File1. Tracer 2. RWS hollow Point 3. 7n6 4. Blank 5. Dummy 6. High Pressure Test 7. Blank 8. Barnaul lead core 9. Barnaul lead core 10. Golden Tiger lead core 11-13. Wolf/TCW lead core 14-16. Ulyanovsk lead core (Uly uses tracer jackets and a two piece lead core. Essentially, they took an unfinished tracer projectile and replaced the tracer pellet in the base with lead. This is why they are the heaviest projectile of the commercial export types) 17. Blank 18. Barnaul 55 gr. Soft Point 19. 7n6 20. Tracer 21. Blank 22. Dummy 23. 7n6 24. Barrel Proof 25. Grenade Launching Blank 26. Fired case from the batch Peter Kokalis/Soldier Of Fortune magazine smuggled out of Afghanistan in the early 1980's. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 1:20:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: When pulling bullets on a mil round, seat bullet a tad deeper to break the seal/crimp. Will pull easy then. I tried that. It laughed at me. The Hornady collet for .224 bullets isn’t quite as “grippy” with these bullets as it is with actual .224 bullets. I wound up seating deeper, trying to pull with the collet, seating even deeper, and wailing the heck out of it with an inertia puller. That last finally made the bullet move out enough that the collet could grip it. The 7n6 round was WAY harder to pull than the commercial rounds I pulled using the same collet. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 1:33:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter: I tried that. It laughed at me. The Hornady collet for .224 bullets isn't quite as "grippy" with these bullets as it is with actual .224 bullets. I wound up seating deeper, trying to pull with the collet, seating even deeper, and wailing the heck out of it with an inertia puller. That last finally made the bullet move out enough that the collet could grip it. The 7n6 round was WAY harder to pull than the commercial rounds I pulled using the same collet. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 3:09:58 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm assuming that is due to sealant.
Many military specs require neck and primer sealants and have waterproof pressure testing too. I haven't pulled any of these, but the ones I have recovered have obvious evidence of good neck sealing. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 4:34:18 PM EDT
[#44]
The commercial rounds had red lacquer at the case neck, but no sign of tar sealant. The 7n6 had both. Between the tar and the tight neck, I had quite a struggle to get that one bullet out.
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MD, USA
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Posted: 9/16/2020 12:39:01 AM EDT
[#45]
Any updates on this topic?
I have some 60 V-max and my dies on order with the intent to shoot through an Adams Arms 16" upper. I don't have the usual powders for 222 Rem or 5.45, but I have some Shooters World AR-Plus powder coming just for this purpose. It is about the same burn rate as Accurate 2230. Don at Western Powders gave me same load data for 5.45 with 2230 as was mentioned earlier in this thread. Thanks guys! |
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Posted: 9/17/2020 3:44:55 PM EDT
[#46]
I haven’t gotten very far on this since my last post.
I have Hornady dies and brass, plenty of bullets (Hornady’s, a bunch of pulled 5.45 bullets (see above), and even some I’ve sized down from .224” bullets. What I do NOT have is either a shellholder or shellplate that is an actual “correct” fit for the 5.45 brass. A .40 S&W shell holder is “ok-ish,” but not really good enough to depend on. Hornady “has” a #56 shellholder that is designed for 5.45, but nobody seems to have it in stock (still), and there’s no Hornady shellplate, nor a Dillon shellplate to fit. Since my last post, I have done plenty of online research, collecting advice and shared data, but I haven’t really done much more since I don’t have the hardware to build rounds yet. |
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Posted: 9/18/2020 8:32:31 AM EDT
[#47]
Hadn't thought about loading 5.45
Lots of good reading here. Thanks. Ordered a few hundred of the HiTech pulls. Off to get some brass(that I had no idea was available). |
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Posted: 9/18/2020 12:20:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Hornady’s offering of both affordable dies AND quality brass (and their bullets) was a potential game changer. Dies, brass and bullets were in stock right after their announcement (around the first of the year, I think), but the shellholder is my big roadblock.
I really need to spend more time looking for that shellholder in stock somewhere. |
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Posted: 9/18/2020 3:19:02 PM EDT
[#49]
What size shell holder does it require?
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Posted: 9/18/2020 4:16:00 PM EDT
[#50]
CH4D has it listed as part number 408LG for $12. I don't know what their wait time would be like.
CH4D |
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