is a 220gr 30-06 load from a 16.5 barrel stupid or acceptable?  I need to build up a short barrel bolt or lever gun to keep with me in the truck as i travel the country for the next few years. i will be everywhere from Texas or Arizona near the border to Alaska to Maine. So i have a list of requirements, no one gun will do it all perfectly.  A 16" 45-70 lever gun is at the top of my list but they can be a little expensive but i am still looking into it. I can across a Savage 110 3006 locally very cheap. I have access to a full machine shop and can shorten the barrel to whatever length i want for free. I figure although not ideal 220gr 3006 might be acceptable up in Alaska as bear defense. But how stupid is it to think a 16.5" barrel will work with that load for under 50 yard use? I know some people do 16" 308. But it is harder to find a bullet that heavy in 308. Also i dont know if 308 in grizzly country is acceptable. Any opinion of 3006 in a 16" barrel as a defensive rifle?

Edit: i had a realization about my needs for this. I have spent a LOT of time in the heart of Grizzly country for the last 5 years. In Montana and Wyoming fishing and hiking 5 days a week in bear country often by myself off trail. I  carried my 686 for 2 years and my G20 for the last year. I always have bear spray and i feel just fine about this. The truth is i just dont worry that much about the big animals. I try to be prepared, accept the risk, and enjoy the life. The reason i first considered a long gun was more defensive against people when in remote wide open terrain in the south west near the US Mexico boarder or in a  short range HD type scenario in states where i cant travel with my a pistol such as NY or MA.  So if you take out the large animal consideration then i can look at much smaller light calibers. Things like a 44 mag, 357 or even 30-30 in a lever gun become viable options.

Here is the kicker. I always travel with my beat to hell .38 airweight. It is good for pocket carry if ever needed while diving cross country at a sketchy hotel or gas station. When i am in the backcountry i carried a 686 in a Diamond D Guides Choice for a few years. I had 180 grain hard cast hand loads moving about 1100 FPS which were brutal, honestly i didnt shoot them great but good enough. Honestly i get almost the same energy from my G20, higher capacity, less recoil and shoot it better. But if i went back to the 686, got a 357 lever gun i could shoot basically the same ammo in all 3 guns. Sounds great...right?

But here is the catch. You say same caliber but you still end up with different ammo. No way is that Airweight going to shoot the same ammo as the rifle. So you have short barrel 38 ammo and full bore 357. Two different ammos. I could do 38 special for the Airweight and 44 mag in a pistol and rifle. That would be 2 types of ammo. But i would need to buy a new rifle AND new pistol and it would be a real handful in the pistol. So i could keep the Airweight, the G20 and add a cheap ass 30-30 and call it a day.  I could even just buy a Marlin 336Y and have a basic short 30-30 that i could even bring into Canada because it was manufactured with a 16" barrel. Wow, dissensions to make.

It doesn’t sound completely retarded to me. You’re still throwing a pretty big pill, and at close range it should still be within the expansion window for a quality hunting bullet. Be prepared for a lot of kick and muzzle blast though. With a lightweight rifle and heavy bullet, you’ll get healthy recoil.

It'll work.  You're probably not getting much more than .308, and thread it for a flash can.  You'll need it.

Cant speak for a 16" .30-06 but the 220 grain is my favorite load out of my 1895 .30-06 and a 16" .308 or .30-30 are great truck guns.

It's not stupid it's a compromise which people make all the time. First thing you should do is post that list of requirements you say you have made so we can have a better idea of what you need. Without it it's a pretty hard question to answer. If price isn't on it we need that too.

Me personally if I could only have one gun it would probably be in a bigger caliber.

OP, is this as a defensive gun? Regardless people have used a 9mm for defense from grizzly and killed them...the 30-06 will as well..If I only had one gun for up close with bears, I would want a shotgun with black magic slugs...but the 30-06 is much better then nothing..no reason a good barnes in the 180-200 grain range  won't work just fine as well...

Now I want a 16" 30-06

Don't know if this response is up your alley or not, but per your question(s), ... Yes, a 16" 30-06 firing 220gn bullets is certainly do-able, acceptable, and not-stoopid. Plus it's effective on the game I've hunted if that's any indication.

My weapon is a 16.1" Mini-G (i.e., a mini M1 Garand), as converted by Shuff's Parkerizing from a 'full-size'  donor Garand. He builds them in .30-06, .308, and .35Whelen.

For the latter two calibers, he uses Criterion barrels. But if your original USGI 30-06 barrel is GTG for the conversion, you'll save $200, which is what I did. The Mini-Gs, being semi-autos, run a Schuster adj. gas plug which allows you to protect the M1's op rod & gas system by 'tuning' them to the energy level of the ammo you're shooting.

Size-wise, a 16" Mini-G is roughly the same length as the little .30 M1 carbine, but feels more robust.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XlYJacucucQ

I use my '06 Mini-G for deer and hog hunting, and handload 220gn Hornady RN slugs over Varget as my hunting load.

My Mini also runs an Ultimak forward rail for mounting either a Scout scope or RDS.  Or, I could just run it plain-jane with the iron sights only, no optic. Obviously, this weapon will more than suffice for self-defense, not to mention the occasional 'get-off-my-lawn' moments.  

The 220gn '06 load will put down anything in the lower 48 and most of Alaska too   -  although if I was up in the AK boonies for any extended time I'd consider upgrading my Mini to .35 Whelen. Certainly if my stay there included Kodiak Island.  This cartridge can deliver .35-cal slugs weighing 250gns and 300gns into nasty critters with claws and jaws.  Plus, in doing the .35W conversion, Shuff will modify your M1 receiver so you can reliably load and fire from M1 clips holding 5- or 8-rds of .35W cartridges, same as you can in 30-06 ... Just FYI.

I wanted to avoid getting side tracked on a "what should i get thread" and stick tot he 30 06 barrel length question. But since you ask...

I will be traveling for a few years for work and have my collection stored at the inlaws house in a overstuffed safe. I will be choosing where i live and likely be in each area 3-6 months. Mostly i will choose rural areas where i spend my time fly fishing, hiking, camping, off roading and overlanding on my truck. I have lived like this for the last 5 years for half of the year but i am going to make it a year round lifestyle soon. So far i always have my little Airweight along with my. Two years i carried a 686 with me while fly fishing in bear country. This last year i switched out to a G20. I know a 44 mag would be better but i just cant get over the weight and also mediocre ballistics with short barrels. I think the Airweight and G20 are a great combo. Airweight when i need to pocket carry and G20 for woods carry or nightstand. But as i travel i am thinking there might be a good idea to have a long gun along. For one thing some places are more restrictive with laws about handguns. If i drive up to Alaska i can bring a long gun through Canada (with the right paper work) but not pistol. I THINK some places like NYC and Massachusetts are also stupid about pistols. Maybe not. But i started thinking a "old man style" Fud" gun might also not raise eyebrows as i travel around. So here are my requirements. Also some areas that i spend time in VERY remote areas in the southwest near the borders, i might like a little more range than a pistol gives.

would like bolt action, lever action or pump
as short as possible to fit well truck storage area (about 38")
i would like a cartridge that does well with shorter barrels
common cartridge that i can buy in rural small town
I would like it to be at least acceptable for defensive work in camp for grizzlies at close range. Hell any rifle is better than a 10mm pistol
I would like to be effective and accurate for mid sized "thin skinned" predators out to about 200 yards.
relatively inexpensive, nothing exotic.
no high cap mags
no pistol grip
non "tacticool"

I have this Wingmaster which is about perfect, short LOP and 18.5" barrel has it right at 38". But i think i want a little more range and accuracy than i get out of slugs considering the how much time i spend in big open country.


If it wasnt for wanting Brown bear protection might just grab a 30-30 lever gun and call it good.

I am really tempted to grab a 1895G 45/70. I can have it cut down to 16.5" and i can shorten the LOP myself. It would end up being about $800. I would like to be about half that with out optics if i use them.

I can get a 30 06 savage locally for less than $300. Cut and recrown in a lathe to 16 or 18" for free. I have a Burris MTAC 1-4 i could install for the cost of mounts. Not ideal but will it work out? Do you guys think this would potentially be a good general use short handy 50 state legal truck gun? A 16" or 18" bolt gun with a good 1-4 power?

I also as a 6.5 Creedmore for not much more. Not really as easy to find in rural areas as good old 30 06 and probably to light for brown bear. But a cool round.

First let me say I prefer short barrels. I consider 16-20” .308’s and 6.5CM as perfect.  In any rifle caliber the longest barrel I would consider would be 22” max.

With that said, in 30-06 I would consider a touch more barrel than 16”.  Maybe 18-20” or so to let more powder burn and widen the gap from .308.

ETA:  for me a perfect hunting rifle is a 30-06 with 20” barrel.   Should drop anything in North America.

OP, if you plan on driving through Canada to Alaska, your 16” bbl rifle might not come w/ you.  Canadians only allow stuff longer than 18”, IIRC.

New York and Massachusetts hate anything w/ more than 10 rounds for the most part; however, it may be possible w/ a good lawyer to get non-resident carry permits.  Likely expensive.

Sounds like a very good package for a good price.  
Shorter barrel, as already said, will give you more blast.  
You’ll lose some velocity affecting long range shots but you can adjust for it.  
The Burris scope on that rifle would be fine.

And another thought:   If you lose it you won’t be out a grand or more.  I know money isn’t the point but it’s a comfort factor.

If you decide you don’t like it you won’t have any problems trading it off.
But I think you’ll find it good to go.

Sounds neat but I bet that thing has quite the "jolt" when shooting it. The 30-06 is no slouch in the recoil department.

18", yes, and the O.P. can forget about trying to get a semi-auto across the line (if he was ever considering an autoloading platform in 30-06, e.g, the Remy 7400), even though the M1 Garand is still legal there.

More than 10-rds in detachable mags generally is a no-no in several states, like N.J. where the little .30 M1 Carbine is banned, but the 8-rd clip-fed Garand is still legal. My '06 Mini-G would be legal there.

220gr from a 16” 30-06 is still very potent.

Based on Hodgdons 15” data I would expect ~2300 fps or more from a 16”.

However if you are only shooting 200 yards you may want to give lever action a second thought. 44 mag and 45/70 are good selections for that distance.

That was exactly my thought. You're gonna lose some FPS, but nothing that's gonna make a big ole .30-06 suddenly ineffective!  But the lighter weight from the short barrel is gonna boost the felt recoil.

I say do it. I'm a fan of .30-06.

.02..for the purpose described.. 45-70 lever gun. No huge compromises and a more than adequate hunting platform. Or shotgun..most versatile.

From Shuff's Parkerizing's website regarding the velocity of factory '06 ammo from a 16.1" barrel:

30/06 Mini-G - actual chronographed velocity *:

AMMUNITION
VELOCITY
ENERGY
GROUP

Federal American Eagle 150-grain FMJ
2705
2437
1.56”

PMC 150-grain Soft Point
2652
2343
1.08”

Remington 150-grain Metal Case
2657
2351
1.18”

Greek 150-grain FMJ Surplus
2528
2129
1.99”

* All groups were fired from a seated rest with targets set up at 50-yards with five shots to a group.  Velocities were measured with a PACT chronograph and expressed in FPS. Energies are listed in FPE.  These are NOT my numbers. These numbers were given to me by a third party using a Mini-G with a TE of 4 and ME of 1.

Well FWIW, I get 2380-ish fps from my 230gr OTM 3.250" single feed 19.75" .308win loads and 2320-ish fps from the 2.845" 230 OTM loads.

I would think you would get better than that from a 30-06 case.

I am trying to verify the 18" min for rifles. This will make a big difference for me. Some of the canadian gov web pages make it sound like it can not be less than 18 if it has been shortened. But it does not realy say if it can be less than 18 if it came from the factory that way.

The 18" law part will make a big difference for me. If i have to be 18" then i will try to find a cheap 30 06 like i found and just cut it to 18.5. 18.5 should be tolerable with 30 06...i think. But 16" is really pushing it. If i can go 16 then i really want 16". I will probably spend more and get a 308 that will do a little better in the shorter barrel. I can also get some good factory 16" 308 rifles. The Remington 783 threaded is a 16" 308 for under $350 ready to go. Or i could step up to a Model 7 with a 16" threaded short action. 2" shorter and about 2 pounds lighter. Almost perfect but getting to $600 price.

2" from 16 to 18 isn't going to matter much. Do you have some weird space constraint to make it necessary?

Yeah, I think in BaggedMilkLand they can't shorten their own rifles under 18" by themselves, but if it comes from the factory that way it's ok, or something.

If you go .308 you could grab a Mossberg and run MagPuls or M-14 mags.  Might have to hunt around for heavy bullet loads, whereas I expect 220 grn .30-06 is relatively easy to find up north.

I envy you, spent several years living in my RV, just didn't travel that much in it.

No not really. I just know the little things add up. I have a CZ452 cut to 16" and threaded that i use suppressed. The small action and 16" barrel balance SO NICE! I also have a Handi rifle with a youth stock and a 16" 357 max barrel. The short stock and no action added to the length make it handle very well. So i just like to keep them short and well balanced if possible.

I would do a compact bolt gun in .308.

Then when you get to the alaska portion of your trip, stop by a gunstore when you get in and pick up a mossberg 500 w/ slugs for bear defense. Sell it back to them when you leave if you dont need it anymore.

Grizzly pose a theat different than any other in n america, and need a specific weapon in my opinion.

As a former New York resident I can tell you you can NOT legally as a nonresident have a handgun in New York !
There are a few rare exceptions but these would NOT apply to your situation at all. And Yes Canada for many years has had a minimal length barrel requirement for long guns. Can not recall if it is 18 or 20 but it is one of the other. Also bear in mind many localities ( again using my NY experience) do NOT allow a loaded long gun inn your vehicle either. Better do tons of legal research to stay within the law. Personally I would choose a Remington 870 slug gun with rifle sights.

This should do it:
Marlin 336Y
They are surprisingly light and handy. Add a simple sling, a rail/aperture sight combo (e.g., XS sights, Skinner, Williams) mount a Weaver V-3 in low QD rings, and it checks all the boxes.

I'm a long time 30-06 user/fan and really like the 220's but I would suggest you also take a look at 200 gr. Nosler Partitions. I think it's a match made in heaven for the '06.
As handy as 16.5" is, I would start at 20" (maybe 18"), shorten the stock lop as much as you're comfortable with and try it. You can always go shorter if you feel the need.
I also use and love 45-70 but really either will work out well for your use I think, the price deal on the '06 would kind of seal the deal for me.
Good luck either way and enjoy your travels. Once more I have to mention the 200 grain loads, super good for me : )

A light read...

@dana

For all semi auto firearms, 18.5 (470mm) is the minimum length, no matter what to classify as a non-restricted firearm.
Flash hiders,muzzle brakes and anything not rifled does NOT count towards the barrel length, no matter how attached.

for manually operated firearms you can have less than 18.56, provided it was manufactured that way. That being said, it's a little looked at thing, that likely woulnd't go over well while crossing.

Thanks for the info. I just want to get some clarification about the last sentence. There are a lot of really good options for e that come from the factory with a 16" barrel. There is the Marlin 336Y which is a 16" youth size 30-30 lever action. There is also the Remington 783 16" threaded that is a 16" threaded 308 bolt action thatonly cost around $350. I have a good Burris 1-4 MTAC sitting on a shelf i could through on it. There is a few others that come from the factory with 16" barrels.

So are you saying that they dont really care too much about the 16" barrels if they are from the factory like that. Or are you saying that even though it IS legal if they are from the factory with the <18.5 barrel,  the border people will really not like it?

I'll be 100% honest I haven't ever crossed the border into Canada with a firearm, but there very much seems to be a miscommunication in Canada that anything under 18.6" is illegal for whatever reason, so I'm saying the second one.

We have a lot of great factory options up here that are 16" and less here as well, like the 700 aac-sd's etc, rossi ranch hands, hell, even the 336y.

BUT there's the very real potential that someone uneducated could measure your barrel and declare your firearm illegal for entry into Canada, despite coming from the factory like that.

Now, a saving grace for you may be to have an FRT number  on hand for the rifle to prove that it did in fact come from the factory and we have them in Canada and they are classified as a Non-Restricted.

Every firearm model/caliber that's sold in Canada is given basically an approval number (FRT) by the RCMP and a classification (Non-Restricted,Restricted, Prohibited).

It's quite common for us up here to have these on hand when out in the bush with semi-autos, or short barrels that are deemed N-R, for the chance encounter with an uneducated officer of the law to prove that we aren't breaking the law.

This thread is full of great info but is still making my head swim. I might just through in the in the towel and grab a old sporterized Yugo SKS i have. It is a Yugo that i removed the grenade launcher and bayonet, Has no evel features. It should be 50 state legal but not Canada. It will do what i need but not great for large animals. But it is free sitting over at my brothers because it wont fit in the safe. Free is always good in my mind.

I thought even Canada allowed the SKS @ shooting ranges.  Might have to put in a 5 round mag.

I would do this with a Remington 7600.  Would be an excellent all around the country rifle IMO.  They're not the greatest rifle ever made and can wear themselves out, but you're not going to be shooting 1,000s of rounds a year with it either.

A pump action 30-06 spitting 220s from a 16.5" barrel with a nice 1-6 LPVO and 10 round magazines would be a pretty potent do anything rifle.

SKS are good to go in Canada, as they are currently considered as a Non-Restricted (I say currently, as the liberals are trying to bring in some changes in the gun laws).
Only caveat to it being allowed into canada is provided the mag is rivet pinned to 5. lol.

SKS are a Non-restricted and allowed to be used off of ranges. correct on the 5 rounds.

I also added this to my original post. But here it is:
i had a realization about my needs for this. I have spent a LOT of time in the heart of Grizzly country for the last 5 years. In Montana and Wyoming fishing and hiking 5 days a week in bear country often by myself off trail. I carried my 686 for 2 years and my G20 for the last year. I always have bear spray and i feel just fine about this. The truth is i just dont worry that much about the big animals. I try to be prepared, accept the risk, and enjoy the life. The reason i first considered a long gun was more defensive against people when in remote wide open terrain in the south west near the US Mexico boarder or in a short range HD type scenario in states where i cant travel with my a pistol such as NY or MA. So if you take out the large animal consideration then i can look at much smaller light calibers. Things like a 44 mag, 357 or even 30-30 in a lever gun become viable options.

Here is the kicker. I always travel with my beat to hell .38 airweight. It is good for pocket carry if ever needed while diving cross country at a sketchy hotel or gas station. When i am in the backcountry i carried a 686 in a Diamond D Guides Choice for a few years. I had 180 grain hard cast hand loads moving about 1100 FPS which were brutal, honestly i didnt shoot them great but good enough. Honestly i get almost the same energy from my G20, higher capacity, less recoil and shoot it better. But if i went back to the 686, got a 357 lever gun i could shoot basically the same ammo in all 3 guns. Sounds great...right?

But here is the catch. You say same caliber but you still end up with different ammo. No way is that Airweight going to shoot the same ammo as the rifle. So you have short barrel 38 ammo and full bore 357. Two different ammos. I could do 38 special for the Airweight and 44 mag in a pistol and rifle. That would be 2 types of ammo. But i would need to buy a new rifle AND new pistol and it would be a real handful in the pistol. So i could keep the Airweight, the G20 and add a cheap ass 30-30 and call it a day. I could even just buy a Marlin 336Y and have a basic short 30-30 that i could even bring into Canada because it was manufactured with a 16" barrel. Wow, dissensions to make.

It is tempting for a 50 state/Canada gun to do a 20" .357 & .357 revolver, especially b/c you already have the .38.  There will be times you shoot mouse loads out of the .357s.  I hate that you have to regress to the 1930's for your armament, but if you want to travel through communist zones, that's what you're restricted to.  Can't even have .357 in Mexico, limited to .38 SPL, though you might handload to .38/44 loads in a stout .38 SPL revolver.

Attached File


This works for me when I hunt pretty much anything in MT OP.  Light and short barrel 308

That's one reason I initially recommended a Garand-based variant (a Mini-G), which, like the 'full-size' M1, is 1930s technology and clip-fed.  No Commie-states here have banned the M1 Garand.

But that was before I realized the OP wants to tred into Canuk territory.

The problem for the OP trying to cross into Canada is, first, any Garand-variant is still a semi-automatic weapon (even though Garands are legal to own there) and, second, a .308 Mini-G has a 16.1" barrel.

A .308 M1 'Tanker' Garand from Fulton Armory sports an 18.5" barrel. So while the Tanker's barrel-length wouldn't be objectionable under Canadian law, and even though it doesn't accept those highly-lethal 30-rd detachable magazines, it's still a semi-auto and the Canuks wouldn't let him cross with it.

I think furriners can get a Canadian firearms permit that would allow him to take in a Garand.  Be easier w/ the 18.Canadian" bbl, however.

I would keep the .30-06 at 20". I would also drop bullet weight down the 200 grains. Should be able to get close to 2700 fps out of a 22" so maybe 2600 out of a 20". Just spitballing here. I've never heard great things about the 220 grain round-nose out of the .30-06, I'll admit I never used and have you bullet when I had one.

A .30-30 Marlin shooting heavier 170 gr. bullets is not a terrible idea. I believe either Hornady or Federal loads a nosler partition in that weight. That would be considerably more powerful then your .357 or 10mm and will still fit nicely behind the seat in your truck.

16" is the norm but couple of years ago I talked to Tim about a 18" Mini G, he said he'd make the barrel any length I wanted. So there's that option.

get a 12 ga, yes a chopped 30-06 bolt action is stupid for a defense rifle. Slow follow up/less effective.

No one in AK carries a chopped 30-06 for bear defense.

You said you would be travelling/camping, a shotgun is cheap and way more versatile than a rifle for all the places you listed.

Check it out:  208 GR ELDM @ 800 yds (through 1:11 twist).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU8zEVzITZs

I saw a couple even though magnums were much more common. Plenty of full length 30-06’s used for the task.

Knew of a Garand and a BAR too

It looks hokey but it works. And if there is a possibility of needing this in a serious encounter, the bear won't be make snide comments about it.

https://www.eabco.net/JP-Howitzer-Brake-Blue-Installed_p_13403.html

Instead of .30-06, why not stepping up to the .35 Whelan?

E. R. Shaw Barrel Kit

Ammo availability on the road for starters

There are a lot of options outside of WalMart.    

'Slow' - maybe in a bolt gun. Not in a semi-auto ... Even the old Remy 7600 pump-action carbine would be faster than a 'carbine-length' bolt action.

Bullshit.

Shuff's Parkerizing has sold dozens of 16" Mini-Gs to AK residents  -  essentially 'carbine'-size Garands. While most are in 30-06, and a few in .308, he's said the .35 Whelen chambering is popular. Per Shuff, two of his 35W Mini-Gs are actively used on Kodiak Isl. for bear protection.

Not only that, but you can find AK guides and residents who have 'chopped' their long-barreled .375 H&H mags to 20"  - Why?  In order to gain portability and quick point-ability when they're moving through the the bush and thick alders.

For protection against the big bruins  -  and occasionally an agitated Moose  -  your initial shots will be quick and made at short-range, which is precisely where a powerful but compact semi-auto would shine.