User Panel
Posted: 12/26/2019 8:55:36 PM EDT
*First, sorry if this is in the wrong section - mod please move to correct section if it is.*
Okay so I plan on building a new AR Pistol and would like to go 10.3, but all the threads and posts saying to just go w/ 11.5 since it gives substantial velocity increase over 10.3/.5 makes me second guess myself. Sure the numbers will say that it's better, but how many of you all who own SBR's/pistols specifically these two lengths notice a difference real time when in use? Honestly I don't shoot too often, maybe ~1k/year if that, nor do I shoot that far (maybe ~200yd at most?) so transitioning from 14.5 to a 10.3 doesn't feel all too different to me. Maybe if I shot more often I would be able to differentiate the little nuances from both. *Off topic note: I do feel a difference when using a muzzle brake/compensator vs a fh though and hate the extra concussion from the brake/comp muzzle devices, but if there were any noticeable recoil differences from a shorter barrel then I guess I don't mind since I don't notice. My reason for wanting 10.3 is because I want the most maneuverable but still reliable carbine as I live near the city with lots of possibly tight spaces. |
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[#1]
If you're not going to have a suppressor on it, I would go with an 11.5 with a linear comp to blast the gases forward.
I personally have a 10.3 and 11.5 AR, and I can't be the judge of recoil because the 10.3 is set up with the Vltor A5 buffer tube and the 11.5 is a standard buffer tube. Recoil on 5.56 AR's isn't very drastic if it's tuned right. |
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[#2]
Google “why BCM chose 11.5”
I have an 11.5, it just make sense. |
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[#3]
I had to mess with my 11.5" way less to get it working well than I did my 10.3" setup.
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[#4]
I have a 10.5” and an 11.5” and there is no substantial difference between the two.
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[#5]
Quoted:
Google “why BCM chose 11.5” I have an 11.5, it just make sense. View Quote 1. he shoots a ton so every little thing he might notice 2. he's the type of guy to tell you the trigger weight by just feeling it I'm talking about the average (or below avg) user that shoots occasionally - will they be able to notice a difference between the two? |
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[#6]
Quoted:
Yes I've read their reasoning about it and seen the numbers. But i'm basically asking, if someone where to give you a 11.5 and a 10.3/5, and doesn't tell you which one is which and you shoot both - will you notice a difference? I know GarandThumb from YT says he feels a difference, but... 1. he shoots a ton so every little thing he might notice 2. he's the type of guy to tell you the trigger weight by just feeling it I'm talking about the average (or below avg) user that shoots occasionally - will they be able to notice a difference between the two? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Google “why BCM chose 11.5” I have an 11.5, it just make sense. 1. he shoots a ton so every little thing he might notice 2. he's the type of guy to tell you the trigger weight by just feeling it I'm talking about the average (or below avg) user that shoots occasionally - will they be able to notice a difference between the two? |
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[#7]
10.4 was good enough for Delta Force to take out Bin Laden with. Worked better than their helicopter did.
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[#8]
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[#9]
Quoted:
Yes I've read their reasoning about it and seen the numbers. But i'm basically asking, if someone where to give you a 11.5 and a 10.3/5, and doesn't tell you which one is which and you shoot both - will you notice a difference? I know GarandThumb from YT says he feels a difference, but... 1. he shoots a ton so every little thing he might notice 2. he's the type of guy to tell you the trigger weight by just feeling it I'm talking about the average (or below avg) user that shoots occasionally - will they be able to notice a difference between the two? View Quote |
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[#10]
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[#11]
Thanks all - so now my dilemma is BCM standard barrel vs DD CHF for all purpose uses.. but i'll save that for another thread if I can't find answers in the archives
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[#12]
Quoted:
Thanks all - so now my dilemma is BCM standard barrel vs DD CHF for all purpose uses.. but i'll save that for another thread if I can't find answers in the archives View Quote |
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[#13]
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[#14]
Most likely 10.3 yeah. As for HG I'm not sure yet would a 10 inch HG work with a 10.3 barrel?
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[#15]
Quoted:
Most likely 10.3 yeah. As for HG I'm not sure yet would a 10 inch HG work with a 10.3 barrel? View Quote 9.5 handguards work great with 10.3 barrels. Geissele, Daniel Defense, there's a bunch of companies that make them, just depends on how much you want to spend. |
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[#16]
Quoted:
Unless you want the muzzle device in the handguard, you want to leave about an inch. 9.5 handguards work great with 10.3 barrels. Geissele, Daniel Defense, there's a bunch of companies that make them, just depends on how much you want to spend. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Most likely 10.3 yeah. As for HG I'm not sure yet would a 10 inch HG work with a 10.3 barrel? 9.5 handguards work great with 10.3 barrels. Geissele, Daniel Defense, there's a bunch of companies that make them, just depends on how much you want to spend. Also enough room if you ever pick up a suppressor |
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[#17]
I have both. They both run great. No real noticeable difference other than the 10.3" being shorter and more handy.
I always grab the 10.3" over the 11.5". Super reliable, eats anything I feed it, shoots great long distance, suppresses well. |
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[#18]
I went 11.5". More velocity and 40% more dwell time. More dwell time should make things more reliable under a wider range of variables. I SBRd it and run the A5 buffer system. Put about 2k of Wolf Gold through it with 0 malfunctions.
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[#19]
I have a 10.3 and an 11.5. I really don't notice a difference.
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[#20]
You won't regret going with 10.3" - my 10.3s are by far my favorite ARs and the ones I shoot the most. The difference between 10.3" and 11.5" is relatively minor, and the 100fps difference in velocity will be more or less meaningless at 200 yards and under. With the proper ammo, you can still get reliable expansion out to around 300 yards with a 10.3.
The only 10.3" barrels I would really recommend would be DD or Colt (or government contract FN if you can find one); all three will be ported correctly with a .070" gas port. My first choice would be a DD. Their barrels are excellent - the chamber is always smooth and perfect, the feed ramps fully polished; they're very accurate and they will stand up to a ton of abuse. I recently replaced one of my DD 10.3s after getting 17k out of it before it started keyholing - that was shooting suppressed with Wolf steel case almost exclusively (14k out of 17k). Those shooting traditional FMJ typically get 20-25k out of them (obviously, that's heavily dependent on firing schedule). DD's customer service is also fantastic. |
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[#21]
I prefer LMT 10.5"
Quoted:
You won't regret going with 10.3" - my 10.3s are by far my favorite ARs and the ones I shoot the most. The difference between 10.3" and 11.5" is relatively minor, and the 100fps difference in velocity will be more or less meaningless at 200 yards and under. With the proper ammo, you can still get reliable expansion out to around 300 yards with a 10.3. The only 10.3" barrels I would really recommend would be DD or Colt (or government contract FN if you can find one); all three will be ported correctly with a .070" gas port. My first choice would be a DD. Their barrels are excellent - the chamber is always smooth and perfect, the feed ramps fully polished; they're very accurate and they will stand up to a ton of abuse. I recently replaced one of my DD 10.3s after getting 17k out of it before it started keyholing - that was shooting suppressed with Wolf steel case almost exclusively (14k out of 17k). Those shooting traditional FMJ typically get 20-25k out of them (obviously, that's heavily dependent on firing schedule). DD's customer service is also fantastic. View Quote |
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[#22]
Get both. But 11.5 offers noticeably more velocity (considering only 1.2 inches of added length) and it’s not as harsh on suppressors vs a 10.3
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[#23]
I have had 10.5, 11.5 and 12.5. The 11.5 extra length is noticeable over the 10.5. The 11.5 and 12.5 handle pretty much the same.
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[#24]
I have both and can’t tell a difference, whether suppressed or unsuppressed.
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[#26]
I don’t really notice a difference between the two. But there are a whole host of variables when you’re talking about recoil impulse and blast. Have flash hiders on all of my short barreled ARs. Don’t find any to be overly concussive. But, I do my shooting outdoors.
Between the two, I’d go with the 10.3 length. Personally, any short barreled ARs I have planned for the future will all have 12.5” barrels. Don’t see enough benefit in ballistics from the added inch between 10” and 11”. Jumping to a 12.5” (IMHO) is much more convincing from a cost/benefit perspective. 11” barrels basically have the same appeal to me as a .40 cal pistol. Perhaps even less so. If I had to pick from the brands you’re entertaining, I’d say DD. BCM wouldn’t ever be on my list of options, and I’m not a fan of Colt. |
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[#27]
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[#28]
Quoted:
I don't really notice a difference between the two. But there are a whole host of variables when you're talking about recoil impulse and blast. Have flash hiders on all of my short barreled ARs. Don't find any to be overly concussive. But, I do my shooting outdoors. Between the two, I'd go with the 10.3 length. Personally, any short barreled ARs I have planned for the future will all have 12.5" barrels. Don't see enough benefit in ballistics from the added inch between 10" and 11". Jumping to a 12.5" (IMHO) is much more convincing from a cost/benefit perspective. 11" barrels basically have the same appeal to me as a .40 cal pistol. Perhaps even less so. If I had to pick from the brands you're entertaining, I'd say DD. BCM wouldn't ever be on my list of options, and I'm not a fan of Colt. View Quote |
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[#29]
Quoted:
I don’t really notice a difference between the two. But there are a whole host of variables when you’re talking about recoil impulse and blast. Have flash hiders on all of my short barreled ARs. Don’t find any to be overly concussive. But, I do my shooting outdoors. Between the two, I’d go with the 10.3 length. Personally, any short barreled ARs I have planned for the future will all have 12.5” barrels. Don’t see enough benefit in ballistics from the added inch between 10” and 11”. Jumping to a 12.5” (IMHO) is much more convincing from a cost/benefit perspective. 11” barrels basically have the same appeal to me as a .40 cal pistol. Perhaps even less so. If I had to pick from the brands you’re entertaining, I’d say DD. BCM wouldn’t ever be on my list of options, and I’m not a fan of Colt. View Quote |
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[#30]
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[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't really notice a difference between the two. But there are a whole host of variables when you're talking about recoil impulse and blast. Have flash hiders on all of my short barreled ARs. Don't find any to be overly concussive. But, I do my shooting outdoors. Between the two, I'd go with the 10.3 length. Personally, any short barreled ARs I have planned for the future will all have 12.5" barrels. Don't see enough benefit in ballistics from the added inch between 10" and 11". Jumping to a 12.5" (IMHO) is much more convincing from a cost/benefit perspective. 11" barrels basically have the same appeal to me as a .40 cal pistol. Perhaps even less so. If I had to pick from the brands you're entertaining, I'd say DD. BCM wouldn't ever be on my list of options, and I'm not a fan of Colt. Honestly with your shooting schedule, you don't need an expensive barrel. Ballistic Advantage or Andro Corp make good value barrels. But I like Colt and DD barrels too. I have had at least a dozen 10.x barrels over the years from a few manufacturers. Never any problems except one barrel made for suppressor use that wouldn't run weak ammo without a suppressor and heavy buffer (duh). Nothing wrong with 11.5 either but I never found the need for the extra velocity. All my 556 Attached File barrels are either 10.3 or 14.5 now. Learn decent holdovers and you should easily make hits out to your 200 yard limit. Don't over think, get what you like and be happy! |
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[#32]
Quoted:
Honestly I don't shoot too often, maybe ~1k/year if that, nor do I shoot that far (maybe ~200yd at most?) so transitioning from 14.5 to a 10.3 doesn't feel all too different to me. Maybe if I shot more often I would be able to differentiate the little nuances from both. *Off topic note: I do feel a difference when using a muzzle brake/compensator vs a fh though and hate the extra concussion from the brake/comp muzzle devices, but if there were any noticeable recoil differences from a shorter barrel then I guess I don't mind since I don't notice. My reason for wanting 10.3 is because I want the most maneuverable but still reliable carbine as I live near the city with lots of possibly tight spaces. View Quote You won’t notice the difference between a 10.3 and 11.5 under most cases. My 11.5” mid, suppressed feels more like a rimfire. But it’s as long as a 16” with a FH. |
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[#33]
Quoted:
I have a 10.5” and an 11.5” and there is no substantial difference between the two. View Quote They only way you could tell the difference is if you have one that is over gassed. For example DD 10.3" barrel with a .070" Gas ports vs a DD 11.5" Barrel with a .068" Gas port (Both are DD's Current Spec) shoot almost identically when all the other parts are the same. In the last 3 years I've shot tens of thousands of rounds. And I can't tell the difference. I tell people to find the rail you want, then find the barrel. I personally prefer 11.5" guns with a M-LOK Handuard and the 10.3" - 10.5" guns with a Mk18 rail or a MK4/MK8 rail. |
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[#34]
This may not be a concern, but an 11.5" barrel normally puts the overall length of the weapon from end of buffer tube to end of barrel threads at just a hair over 26". Sometimes it may actually be a hair under, but usually 11.5" puts it right over.
Which allows you to legally put a forward grip on it. I really like stuff like Magpul's and BCM's short VFGs, so that matters somewhat to me. |
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[#35]
10.5, 11.5, 12.5, and 14.5 here.
Between those two the 11.5. My favorite all around is the 12.5. |
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[#36]
I use a 10.3 at work (LEO), and have 11.5 the I personaly own. I prefer the 11.5. |
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[#37]
Sooooooooooooooo much couch commando...
Use case defines relative "need". If you're hunting people or critters you want velocity for reliable expansion based upon averages. Most hunters have a pretty good idea what their weapon system is capable of and will plan around that, ie they are aware of the average distance that they may shoot at. They know their minimum and they know their maximum, ie the limitations of their gear. Most long range, large game hunters are not hunting with .223/5.56 weapons. From a self defense standpoint, no one here is taking a 200 yard shot. No one here is taking a 150 yard shot. I would hazard a guess to say that no one is taking a 100 yard shot and at most, probably a fifty yard shot is what would be considered reasonable in a self defense shooting. Let's throw all of that reality out of the window for a minute and say that one of the internet Delta guys actually shoots someone at two hundred yards. Do you guys really think that the difference between a 10.5 inch barrel and an 11.5 inch barrel with PROPER ammo selection is actually going to make a difference? I would say no, absolutely not. Lets inject some reality back into this. For 99.9999999999% of the shooting that you're going to be doing, ammo means nothing as 99% of us shoot bulk range ammo. The one percent of us that hand load and develop accurate loads are not developing these loads for a 10.5 inch barrel, or even an 11.5 inch barrel. IF they are, those people are probably well aware of the limitations of that barrel length and will plan accordingly by choosing the proper powder and bullet selection for maximum performance out of that barrel length. On paper, an 11.5 inch barrel is "better" because of the increase in dwell time. History has shown that 10.3 and 10.5 inch barrels can be made to run reliably with proper gas port selection, buffer, bcg and spring weight. I know its a discussion forum but why do we keep having discussions about things that are based purely in fantasy land? It's a good thing to talk about this stuff as if there was never any discussion about it none of this information would ever be disseminated. Still, the academia of it all is sooooo far removed from the average shooters reality. Buy what makes you happy bud. |
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[#38]
I literally was shooting a 10.3" and an 11.5" yesterday. Here are my takeaways from shooting two brand new builds with identical lowers.
First let me list the major parts in the uppers. 10.3" Build - CQBR Block 1 Clone 1. Colt Factory Barrel - not cut down - .070" Gas port - A2 Front sight post 2. Colt Upper 3. Colt BCG with new Toolcraft Bolt with one piece gas ring 4. KAC RAS Handguard 5. Standard A2 Flash Hider 11.5" Build - Geissele Duty Grade Upper 1. Geissele Barrel - Gas Port Unknown - Geissele Gas Block 2. Geissele Upper 3. Geissele Complete BCG and Bolt - 3 gas rings 4. Geissele MK16 10.5" Handguard 5. Surefire Closed Tine Warcomp To me, the 10.3" shot smoother and had a much softer recoil impluse than the 11.5". It was more pleasant to shoot, had very similar recoil, and stood out to me as the better choice. Most of the 10.3"/10.5" barrels are over gassed. They always have been to keep the "reliability" high. I used quotations around reliability because it a large gas port is a fail safe by manufactures. They open them up so Elmer Fudd can shoot his soft recoiling reloads out of them without any issue. It is easier for them to do that than to explain to a customer that the proper ammunition loaded to the proper specs needs to be used. I have literally countless 10.3"/10.5" and 11.5" uppers. Off the top of my head we are talking over 20-25. I'd have to literally go count them to determine how many I have. With that being said, I have made up my mind on what I plan to build next and shoot all year long. I am going to build a 10.3" gun with a Factory Colt 10.3" barrel, cut down the front sight post, Surefire Flash Hider (no warcomp), and Daniel Defense MK18 rail/Maybe a Geissele MK16 9.3". With a properly tuned gas port you don't need a muzzle brake or a compensator. Do they help, yes but they are not needed. To me the Cons outweigh the Pros on muzzle brakes/comps anymore. I have a SilencerCo ASR Brake on a DD MK18 Dealer Sample Machine gun. You can literally group all 30 rounds in one pull of the trigger in a reduced A Zone at 15 yards. However, when you are done, it literally takes the air from your lungs due to the concussion. Not sure of the gas port size on the MG because I never checked it. Maybe I will do that some day. |
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[#39]
Quoted: Sooooooooooooooo much couch commando... Use case defines relative "need". If you're hunting people or critters you want velocity for reliable expansion based upon averages. Most hunters have a pretty good idea what their weapon system is capable of and will plan around that, ie they are aware of the average distance that they may shoot at. They know their minimum and they know their maximum, ie the limitations of their gear. Most long range, large game hunters are not hunting with .223/5.56 weapons. From a self defense standpoint, no one here is taking a 200 yard shot. No one here is taking a 150 yard shot. I would hazard a guess to say that no one is taking a 100 yard shot and at most, probably a fifty yard shot is what would be considered reasonable in a self defense shooting. Let's throw all of that reality out of the window for a minute and say that one of the internet Delta guys actually shoots someone at two hundred yards. Do you guys really think that the difference between a 10.5 inch barrel and an 11.5 inch barrel with PROPER ammo selection is actually going to make a difference? I would say no, absolutely not. God Darn. That was some typing Lets inject some reality back into this. For 99.9999999999% of the shooting that you're going to be doing, ammo means nothing as 99% of us shoot bulk range ammo. The one percent of us that hand load and develop accurate loads are not developing these loads for a 10.5 inch barrel, or even an 11.5 inch barrel. IF they are, those people are probably well aware of the limitations of that barrel length and will plan accordingly by choosing the proper powder and bullet selection for maximum performance out of that barrel length. On paper, an 11.5 inch barrel is "better" because of the increase in dwell time. History has shown that 10.3 and 10.5 inch barrels can be made to run reliably with proper gas port selection, buffer, bcg and spring weight. I know its a discussion forum but why do we keep having discussions about things that are based purely in fantasy land? It's a good thing to talk about this stuff as if there was never any discussion about it none of this information would ever be disseminated. Still, the academia of it all is sooooo far removed from the average shooters reality. Buy what makes you happy bud. View Quote I reload for just about every gun I have. It has taken me years to develops loads for particular uppers. So much to the point that I have started laser engraving the uppers with a number and use that number when working in my reloading books. And what you stated is accurate. I know what shots I can and cant take with what ammo. To me, accuracy is more important that a few FPS in velocity. A bullet will preform pretty similarly +/- 50FPS. However, most of the time spent plinking is using the same 55gr bullet with 26.0 grains of CFE223 with whatever primers are available. Serious ammo get Federal medal match AR primers, precisely weighed chargers, good bullets, and annealed brass. You also stated that most gun fights will incur withing 50 yards. I'd agree with that but also state that its even more likely to be within 25 yards. Personally, if I were to engage a threat, it'd like to get as close to the threat as possible while being safe then engage. I'd rather move to covert than risk a flyer a clip an innocent. With all that being said, sometimes a few inches at the muzzle can prevent you from working cover/structures. That is why my decision is always as short of a gun as possible that is comfortable for you. For my an OAL of a 10.3" gun just seems easier to maneuver in and out of vehicles and around walls. |
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[#40]
Quoted: This may not be a concern, but an 11.5" barrel normally puts the overall length of the weapon from end of buffer tube to end of barrel threads at just a hair over 26". Sometimes it may actually be a hair under, but usually 11.5" puts it right over. Which allows you to legally put a forward grip on it. I really like stuff like Magpul's and BCM's short VFGs, so that matters somewhat to me. View Quote +1. I came here to post exactly this regarding adding a foregrip. |
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