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Posted: 11/4/2022 7:50:47 PM EDT
What is it?
I’m reading so much about vanadium, carbides, molybdenum, carbon, chromium I’m cross-eyed. Then add crucible particle/powdered metallurgy & steel alloys—zoinks! My EDC is a Spyderco ZDP 189, but I talked myself into a CPM 20CV auto….because….it seemed like a good idea at the time. Much better than the CPM 154 auto I still have. For guys with CPM M4–does it really seem “better?” It’s supposedly tough & holds an edge, but in TEOTWAWKI, is a 1095 blade a more durable option? Yes, i’m s steel junkie & looking for an excuse to “upgrade.” But when I look at my Randalls O1 tool steel, D2 Chris Reeve hollow handled knives, I wonder if the premier steels are PRACTICALLY better? Opinions welcome! |
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Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ...
A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. eta, I have one of Chris Reeves old survival knives from SA. I believe it's A2 steel. Sweet. Never been used. |
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There are so many really, really good steels out now and few people would notice much of a difference between the better ones in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance. They very a little more on how difficult they are to sharpen properly. Just find a knife you like from a quality maker and which “super steel” it’s made from won’t make as much of a difference as the design and how it feels in hand.
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Quoted: Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ... A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. View Quote To this day when people ask me what knives to buy for their kitchen I tell them to get some old Chicago Cutlery or Old Hickory, both of which were made from 1095. They are easy to sharpen and hold a wonderful edge. My regular fixed blades these days are a 1095 Ka-Bar given to me by a Marine, and a Chris Reeve One Piece out of A2 steel. For EDC it is a Sebenza also from Chris Reeve made from BG-42. Steels are always a trade-off of cost, edge retention, stainless or carbon, and toughness. Some work better than others for specific applications. You really cannot go wrong with any modern steel, carbon or stainless. Heat treating is the major issue with whatever you choose. |
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Quoted: Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ... A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. eta, I have one of Chris Reeves old survival knives from SA. I believe it's A2 steel. Sweet. Never been used. View Quote Don’t you mean “water quench” my question? I realize “best” is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new “premium super steel” like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that’s hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness—i wouldn’t baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don’t think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper “Nighthawk” or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes—do the super steels matter to the average knife user? ETA: our kitchen knives are 1990s Gerber high carbon stainless steel, because that was a gift from my brother. They aren’t Sabatier, Henkel or Shun (we have a few of those we bought to experiment) but the Gerbers suit us fine. They’re sharpened annually & steeled before use. |
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Quoted: Don't you mean "water quench" my question? I realize "best" is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new "premium super steel" like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that's hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness i wouldn't baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don't think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper "Nighthawk" or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes do the super steels matter to the average knife user? ETA: our kitchen knives are 1990s Gerber high carbon stainless steel, because that was a gift from my brother. They aren't Sabatier, Henkel or Shun (we have a few of those we bought to experiment) but the Gerbers suit us fine. They're sharpened annually & steeled before use. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ... A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. eta, I have one of Chris Reeves old survival knives from SA. I believe it's A2 steel. Sweet. Never been used. Don't you mean "water quench" my question? I realize "best" is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new "premium super steel" like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that's hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness i wouldn't baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don't think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper "Nighthawk" or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes do the super steels matter to the average knife user? ETA: our kitchen knives are 1990s Gerber high carbon stainless steel, because that was a gift from my brother. They aren't Sabatier, Henkel or Shun (we have a few of those we bought to experiment) but the Gerbers suit us fine. They're sharpened annually & steeled before use. But here again, if you take a vintage str8 razor of good quality and a new one to compare, you won't notice the difference in your shave (sharpening being equal). Will the new blade hold it's edge longer? Most likely. JMHO |
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Quoted: If your question is 'can you get the new steels sharper than the old ones', I would still say it depends, but the odds are definitely on the side of the new steels. But here again, if you take a vintage str8 razor of good quality and a new one to compare, you won't notice the difference in your shave (sharpening being equal). Will the new blade hold it's edge longer? Most likely. JMHO View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ... A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. eta, I have one of Chris Reeves old survival knives from SA. I believe it's A2 steel. Sweet. Never been used. Don't you mean "water quench" my question? I realize "best" is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new "premium super steel" like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that's hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness i wouldn't baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don't think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper "Nighthawk" or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes do the super steels matter to the average knife user? ETA: our kitchen knives are 1990s Gerber high carbon stainless steel, because that was a gift from my brother. They aren't Sabatier, Henkel or Shun (we have a few of those we bought to experiment) but the Gerbers suit us fine. They're sharpened annually & steeled before use. But here again, if you take a vintage str8 razor of good quality and a new one to compare, you won't notice the difference in your shave (sharpening being equal). Will the new blade hold it's edge longer? Most likely. JMHO My question is are the newer steels going to be obviously sharper & it sounds like no, but edge durability is better with the new steel, but razors can only be so sharp, I guess. Maybe someone should start a knife leasing program, like with cars, so steel nerds can “upgrade.” |
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Quoted: Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ... A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. eta, I have one of Chris Reeves old survival knives from SA. I believe it's A2 steel. Sweet. Never been used. View Quote Dirtydog nailed it. I like quality blades, so I’ve ended up with a fairly eclectic range of steel. |
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Quoted: My question is are the newer steels going to be obviously sharper & it sounds like no, but edge durability is better with the new steel, but razors can only be so sharp, I guess. Maybe someone should start a knife leasing program, like with cars, so steel nerds can "upgrade." View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not to rain on your question, but it really depends on what it's for, heat treat, how much you're willing to take care of it, ... A pocket knife is usually for misc. small jobs. Almost any modern steel is good to go. I used to be almost anal when it came to the latest and greatest. Not anymore. 1095 is a good strong steel generally best with a good hunting knife. D2, A2, ... are good old tool steels, but they will corrode if not cared for. S30V, 35, 90 all good stainless M390=20CV Long story short, find the design that you like the most. It'll be what you end up carrying. I like my CRKs. They happen to be S30V and S35VN. eta, I have one of Chris Reeves old survival knives from SA. I believe it's A2 steel. Sweet. Never been used. Don't you mean "water quench" my question? I realize "best" is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new "premium super steel" like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that's hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness i wouldn't baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don't think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper "Nighthawk" or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes do the super steels matter to the average knife user? ETA: our kitchen knives are 1990s Gerber high carbon stainless steel, because that was a gift from my brother. They aren't Sabatier, Henkel or Shun (we have a few of those we bought to experiment) but the Gerbers suit us fine. They're sharpened annually & steeled before use. But here again, if you take a vintage str8 razor of good quality and a new one to compare, you won't notice the difference in your shave (sharpening being equal). Will the new blade hold it's edge longer? Most likely. JMHO My question is are the newer steels going to be obviously sharper & it sounds like no, but edge durability is better with the new steel, but razors can only be so sharp, I guess. Maybe someone should start a knife leasing program, like with cars, so steel nerds can "upgrade." ...for another day. |
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CPM Magnacut is looking pretty good
As the Best All Around Knife Steel Not surprisingly it was designed to be just that |
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Start reading here https://knifesteelnerds.com/
Lots of info, some more technical than people need. Plenty of graphs that show which steel is tougher, sharpens easier.... |
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bohler m390 aslong as you have a good sharpener to maintain it
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There’s no best in my opinion. Different steels for different applications.
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I bookmarked this from a past thread. My only exotic is my Manbug ZDP 189 spyderco.
https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/ |
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I don’t know which horse will win every race, but I know which ones to bet on and they all wear the CPM brand.
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Quoted: There’s no best in my opinion. Different steels for different applications. View Quote I get this, based on tool/task. It’s really no different than a handgun vs rifle. I just bought CPM 20CV auto & it looks like M4 may be the best re: edge retention and abusable/durable. I will be honest- I want a CPM S110V….because |
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Spyderco Mule Team Project
In the knife industry a “mule” is a sample knife used for performance testing. Spyderco’s Mule Team series takes this concept a step further by offering the same fixed-blade knife pattern in many different steel variations. This ongoing project allows steel-obsessed knife enthusiasts a unique opportunity to test and evaluate different steels using the same identical design platform. |
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I agree with doubleplus and willz, Magnacut might be the best all around steel.
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Quoted: Spyderco Mule Team Project In the knife industry a “mule” is a sample knife used for performance testing. Spyderco’s Mule Team series takes this concept a step further by offering the same fixed-blade knife pattern in many different steel variations. This ongoing project allows steel-obsessed knife enthusiasts a unique opportunity to test and evaluate different steels using the same identical design platform. View Quote For anyone interested, the M398 mule is being released next Tuesday. Sometimes they go fast, not sure about this one, but they’re fun to play with and great to practice making handles with. |
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Quoted: CPM Magnacut is looking pretty good As the Best All Around Knife Steel Not surprisingly it was designed to be just that View Quote One of the sweet things about Magnacut, is that Larrin pretty much developed the heat treat for it alonside the development of Magnacut, which means less wiggle room for manufacturers to screw it up (I hope). Eg. CRK has been playing with Magnacut. Their old S30V HT just wasn't that good, and they were leaving performance on the table because they tended towards heat treats that result in softer than the steels they used were capable of (and they noticeably dulled faster than other manufacturers using the same steels, but different heat treat). Hopefully, they'll use the HT protocol Larrin came up with in the development/testing for Magnacut, because their fit and finish are excellent. I recall reading in their prototype testing, CRK was using Magnacut at ~62Hrc, but they're probably going to use the standard 63-64Hrc that Larrin tested. |
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Montana Knife Company is dropping their Blackfoot Skinner in Magnacut this Thursday.
This is a departure from the 52100 steel used in all their knives previously. |
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Oh crap….
I just read about MagnaCut….. Skipping M4 for MagnaCut |
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Those Dutch boys on YouTube beat the tar out of their knives and their favorite is CPM 3v, so that's what I chose for my latest fixed blade woods/survival knife. It's damn sharp and supposedly sharpens fairly easily.
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Call me crazy, but my fixed blade knives (if I like 'em) get used a lot outdoors, at home for gardening and building tasks, and in the woods hunting, camping, fishing, building fires, making pointy sticks for marshmallows etc.
And what I like best is a blade that's easy to sharpen. Not shit steel easy mind you, has to be good steel with a good heat treat. For years my main blade was a Cold Steel SRK in Carbon V, still one of the best I ever used, got stolen by some lowlife. 1095 from Ontario or Kabar has done excellent. New favorite has been Buck's 420HC, have banged on these blades for 5 years now and they just work, not the greatest for edge retention but you can sharpen them on a flat rock, I use a little Lansky pocket sharpener in the field, takes all of 30 seconds to get back to a great working edge. And very affordable. Thing that most people don't know about Buck's 420 HC is that it is one of the toughest steels out there, not 3V tough but not far from it, much better than most of the stainless "super" steels. It's also one of the most corrosion resistant of all the stainless steels, my tacklebox knife doesn't have a mark on it after years of riding in a wet box. Just picked up a blade on the EE in N690, have heard great things about the ease of sharpening of this steel while supposedly also having really good edge retention, lawd knows it takes a great edge, this may be the sharpest blade i've ever bought. All things considered though, good ol 5160 is IMO the best all-around steel ever for anything sharp from blades to swords and even hatchets. |
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Quoted: Oh crap…. I just read about MagnaCut….. Skipping M4 for MagnaCut View Quote Optimized Magnacut heat treat vs industry standard Magnacut heat treat vs carbon steels vs their proprietary 3V heat treat that they call D3V/Delta3V from my favorite knifemakers; Carothers Performance Knives How does Magnacut compare to high end carbon steels and Delta CPM 3V |
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Bucks 420 isn’t even close to the super steels. Not in toughness or edge retention. That’s why it’s there entry level steel and they charge substantially more for their premium steels. One thing that Buck has going for them is their heat treat through Paul Bos. Most consider them the best commercial heat treaters on stainless steels.
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Quoted: Bucks 420 isn’t even close to the super steels. Not in toughness or edge retention. That’s why it’s there entry level steel and they charge substantially more for their premium steels. One thing that Buck has going for them is their heat treat through Paul Bos. Most consider them the best commercial heat treaters on stainless steels. View Quote Buck now offers their popular fixed blades in S35VN https://www.bladehq.com/item--Buck-120-Genera-Prol-Bowie-Knife--120503 |
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They also offer it on some folders. I carry a 110 Slim Pro everyday.
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Quoted: Bucks 420 isn’t even close to the super steels. Not in toughness or edge retention. That’s why it’s there entry level steel and they charge substantially more for their premium steels. One thing that Buck has going for them is their heat treat through Paul Bos. Most consider them the best commercial heat treaters on stainless steels. View Quote heat treat is one of those things that is best done in small batches. for many reasons, this is why I do my own. HUGE learning curve, but I built my own furnace and controls, even wind my own coils to optimize the power. that AND a Rockwell testing machine to ensure quality. heat treat is EVERYTHING. |
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Quoted: I realize “best” is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new “premium super steel” like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that’s hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness—i wouldn’t baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don’t think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper “Nighthawk” or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes—do the super steels matter to the average knife user? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: I realize “best” is qualitative & not quantitative, at least when no parameters are defined. Aside from my really old (1970s era, likely 440A stainless) knives with edge retention issues, will a new “premium super steel” like M390 be noticeably sharper than VG10? Or, heck, my 1970s Schrade LB7 that’s hair popping sharp. I know the inverse relationship between edge retention & toughness—i wouldn’t baton a log with a M390 blade, but I don’t think about it with my 440C Bianchi Carl Schlieper “Nighthawk” or other 1970s/1980s non-super steel knives. For practical purposes—do the super steels matter to the average knife user? No, not really, but for the average user that doesn't sharpen their knives, they'll notice a premium steel will last longer than some of the older cutlery steels. As mentioned, heat-treatment is an important equation as is the intended use. I think once you get over 6" or so in blades, you really need to consider the "toughness" aspect when it comes to heavier impacts like chopping. Heat treatment still is a factor for the edge as is the steel composition, but for smaller knives, I don't think it's a major factor unless it's designed as a skinning and deboning knife or similar niche. I just don't think the majority who carry and use knives daily would really be able to tell you some quantifiable difference between the metallurgy properties of steels from a practical standpoint. It would be interesting to have a couple dozen knives in the same design from inexpensive 1095, 440C, or AUS8 all the way up to Magnacut and other premium steels. Have a dozen "regular" users T&E in a blind test and see what the results are, to include field sharpening (an often overlooked requirement); I bet the results would be pretty surprising. Quoted: heat treat is EVERYTHING. While I agree heat treatment is probably the biggest factor, more so than the actual steel composition, I would argue the next biggest factors are knife geometry and edge profile. I like a thinner edge, but many premium steels that are higher on the hardening scale often can't handle the abuse. The CPM Magnacut is looking very promising in that category. ROCK6 |
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Drop any of the steels hardness down to 57 and the toughness will go up.
I will still take a modern steel like S30VN (and up) or Magnacut over 420. |
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I thought 420 was built for abuse—it’s used in bayonets, which see an awful lot of abuse.
Or, maybe not. |
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Quoted: I thought 420 was built for abuse View Quote It is. Perfect all purpose beater knife, inexpensive and super easy to sharpen. But back to the OP's question, best modern steel for a knife? Probably Busse's INFI. But advances in heat/cryo treatments have really made 3V a contender, CPK in particular seems to have it dialed in perfectly. I have a couple of Bucks in 3V but have not tried them out yet. Stainless "super" steels are really too brittle for a big blade that you're gonna bang on in the woods, carbon steel is the way to go for anything other than a small fixed blade or pocket folder. |
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Delta 3V heat treat Nathan Carothers does. Magnacut. Any of the fancy crucible CPM stuff.
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Quoted: Quoted: Those Dutch boys on YouTube beat the tar out of their knives and their favorite is CPM 3v, so that's what I chose for my latest fixed blade woods/survival knife. It's damn sharp and supposedly sharpens fairly easily. LOL. Hope you have diamonds. Yeah. 3V is ridiculously tough. |
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I have an M4 fixed blade that I have been testing. So far I really like it. I have four Magnacut blades that Im working on right now. We'll see how they work out. Most recently I liked working with AEB=L.
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Quoted: RMJ 3V Gladius https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/179550/B3D62890-1B2F-48EB-845B-0AC7A9B629BB-2591597.jpg View Quote Awesome... |
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Quoted: Awesome... Not my pic but I have this same Gladius. It's a quality made piece. It's incredibly sharp. Not really a fan of the finger grooves on the grip but it's very well made otherwise. |
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