Is the FAL dead? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is the FAL dead? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 8/25/2011 6:16:18 PM EDT

[#1]

I heard that a redesigned receiver is in the works. It is supposed to bring the FAL 21st century accuracy. If it works I'd rather have it than any other .308 platform.

Posted: 8/25/2011 6:50:37 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I see plenty of FAL's for 700 up 1000 bucks - Never seen a M1A for less then 1,200..... Forget about only US domestic market - think about the rest of the world and many nations which still adopt the FAL as main rifle. It is far from dead.. and when those nations decide to replace it for something else more "plastic", there will be another wave of surplus mag and parts.

Guarantee you're not seeing DSA's for $700. Lets compare factory built "new" rifles and not Beaver Werks specials and Uncle Hickleys Garage Kit guns to factory rifles.

As far as "new" imports you assume several things which are unlikely- 1. That anyone still fielding FALS will upgrade- if they haven't done so already why would they do it before the guns they have are complete shit? Do you really have a hard on for Indian Fals? No thanks.There is less money for defense in most any nation now than at any time in the last 40 years, they will continue to soldier on with what they have. 2. You assume that the guns/parts etc...will be importable. We thought this for a long time...then the barrels went away, what's next? 3. Why would they come HERE? The value of our currency is dropping like a stone. I have little interest in paying $500 for a trashed kit with no barrel 4. UN arms trade restrictions and buy outs. This is what happened to a huge number of Austrian STG's and South African Fals along with the SA ammo etc.....

Century makes fals for 700 dollars. I bought my dsa for 890 dollars. Imbel still produces fals for the brazilian army on a regular basis. They are growing in size and there not enough riles for the troops. I was just reading the book of assault rifles (Johntson and Nelson - google it) and the authors mention that the US govt bought DSA 58 rifles for special forces units... Honestly, the M14/M1A is more dead than the FAL. The Fal was adopted by 90 countries or so... you havent even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to surplus parts, and you know why? Because a lot are still in service. Regarding the UN crap, the Fal should be the least of worries if we sign up for that shit.

It don't look good.

Posted: 8/25/2011 6:53:14 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, it's dead. At this point it is a dead end platform- not a bad one, but simply a dead end. It began to die the moment that cheap magazines, parts kits, chrome lined foreign replacement barrels and receivers began to dry up. It's essentially been down hill since about 2006 or so. When you're paying as much for a FAL as you are an M1a, most shooters, sorry hardcore FAL guys, are going to pick the M1a.

Somebody tell DSA they are making zombies....

The supply of aftermarket parts has all but dried up. There is ONE maker of these rifles essentially at this point-and a low volume one at that. Contrast this with the M1A- there are now 4-5 companies making rifles, several more making barrels, many making NEW and INNOVATIVE stocks and scope mounts etc....Besides none of he "legacy 3" battle rifles- M1a, Fal, G3 are exactly state of the art at this point- still effective, yes, but there are new designs like the FNH 17, the Kel Tec RFB etc....that are coming on line.

The FN is a good rifle but it has had it's day, especially in this country.

Really? Which companies besides springfield are making M1As ?

Posted: 8/25/2011 6:58:40 PM EDT

[#4]

The FAL is still alive in Lybia!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/25/italian-journalists-kidna_n_936099.html?ir=World

Posted: 8/26/2011 4:37:56 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I see plenty of FAL's for 700 up 1000 bucks - Never seen a M1A for less then 1,200..... Forget about only US domestic market - think about the rest of the world and many nations which still adopt the FAL as main rifle. It is far from dead.. and when those nations decide to replace it for something else more "plastic", there will be another wave of surplus mag and parts.

Guarantee you're not seeing DSA's for $700. Lets compare factory built "new" rifles and not Beaver Werks specials and Uncle Hickleys Garage Kit guns to factory rifles.

As far as "new" imports you assume several things which are unlikely- 1. That anyone still fielding FALS will upgrade- if they haven't done so already why would they do it before the guns they have are complete shit? Do you really have a hard on for Indian Fals? No thanks.There is less money for defense in most any nation now than at any time in the last 40 years, they will continue to soldier on with what they have. 2. You assume that the guns/parts etc...will be importable. We thought this for a long time...then the barrels went away, what's next? 3. Why would they come HERE? The value of our currency is dropping like a stone. I have little interest in paying $500 for a trashed kit with no barrel 4. UN arms trade restrictions and buy outs. This is what happened to a huge number of Austrian STG's and South African Fals along with the SA ammo etc.....

Century makes fals for 700 dollars.

Like I said, BEAVER WERKS.

I bought my dsa for 890 dollars

. New or used?

Imbel still produces fals for the brazilian army on a regular basis. They are growing in size and there not enough riles for the troops.

So why would they send them here?

I was just reading the book of assault rifles (Johntson and Nelson - google it) and the authors mention that the US govt bought DSA 58 rifles for special forces units...

Show me a picture of American troops with Fals in their hands. For every one that you might have, I can show you 30 of guys fielding M14 based DMR's etc....

Honestly, the M14/M1A is more dead than the FAL. The Fal was adopted by 90 countries or so... you havent even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to surplus parts, and you know why? Because a lot are still in service.

Exactly. And they will be in service until they are completely TRASHED, WORHTLESS PILES OF SHIT.

Regarding the UN crap, the Fal should be the least of worries if we sign up for that shit.

It's not a question if WE sign up for it or not. WE aren't the ones with the guns! The countries that DO have the guns are being PAID to scrap them. Do you really think that the social democracies of Europe- large FAL users, are going to surplus their guns to the US market? No. They are going to be melted down into peace sculptures- just like the Austrian STG's were, the South African R1's and the Australian Lithgow guns. You obviously aren't a FAL "old timer". I've been buying and shooting fals for over 20 years- that is the recent history of the Fal-huge numbers of them simply destroyed. You think Canada and the UK are going to surplus guns to the US at this point? Please, you're making me laugh to the point of tears.

There are some nations that certainly would sell them here- most of them, never produced Fals themselves. What does that mean? The guns they have are wore out pieces of shit- like the Turko-German G1's that came in. Sure, you could make a decent rifle out of them but about half had rotten gas towers and shot out barrels, well, wait, you can't even import a barrel anyway so I guess it doesn't matter......

Posted: 8/26/2011 4:42:34 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, it's dead. At this point it is a dead end platform- not a bad one, but simply a dead end. It began to die the moment that cheap magazines, parts kits, chrome lined foreign replacement barrels and receivers began to dry up. It's essentially been down hill since about 2006 or so. When you're paying as much for a FAL as you are an M1a, most shooters, sorry hardcore FAL guys, are going to pick the M1a.

Somebody tell DSA they are making zombies....

The supply of aftermarket parts has all but dried up. There is ONE maker of these rifles essentially at this point-and a low volume one at that. Contrast this with the M1A- there are now 4-5 companies making rifles, several more making barrels, many making NEW and INNOVATIVE stocks and scope mounts etc....Besides none of he "legacy 3" battle rifles- M1a, Fal, G3 are exactly state of the art at this point- still effective, yes, but there are new designs like the FNH 17, the Kel Tec RFB etc....that are coming on line.

The FN is a good rifle but it has had it's day, especially in this country.

Really? Which companies besides springfield are making M1As ?

Armscorp.

Enterprise Arms.

Smith Enterprises.

LRB.

Fulton Armory

Posted: 8/26/2011 5:09:38 AM EDT

[#7]

Oh I am sorry mr lord of the truth and reason, if I made you laugh to tears... You sound like one of those people who hate 1911's and hang around the 1911 forum just to say that those guns belong in a museum. You are arrogant and won't accept any point of view but yours. The question was "is it the FAL dead?" and the answer is a clear no if you care to look at the rest of the world. I will not waste any more time debating with you.

Posted: 8/26/2011 5:29:57 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Oh I am sorry mr lord of the truth and reason, if I made you laugh to tears... You sound like one of those people who hate 1911's and hang around the 1911 forum just to say that those guns belong in a museum. You are arrogant and won't accept any point of view but yours. The question was "is it the FAL dead?" and the answer is a clear no if you care to look at the rest of the world. I will not waste any more time debating with you.

There are still 1891 Mosins in Russian arsenals today-they ship us a container of them every week. That doesn't make them front line issue weapons. The real question is is the gun "dead" in the UNITED STATES at the present time-that was OP's question- and I say that if not dead it is a dead end product-IN this country at THIS time.

The same can be said of the other Legacy Battle Rifles for the most part. I'm not really partisan about it. Rifles designed 50-60 years ago are NOT state of the art no matter how much you wish them to be, I'm sorry. The most telling example of this is in the area of optics. All of the Legacy Rifles require half assed solutions to mount modern combat optics on them, Why? Because they weren't designed for them, it's really that simple. That doesn't make them bad rifles, but it's simply fact that they are not the future-ANY of them, though some have adapted better than others.

If you can tell me where I'm wrong without resorting to "93 countries" (almost none of which still use the FAL in front line service at this point) as your sole point of argument I'm willing to listen. You obviously didn't understand how the UN Arms Reduction Treaty works as I pointed out and you didn't refute a single other point that I made, not one. That's how arguments work....I argue a point, provide evidence etc...and you counter it with a point and evidence or logical argument to back it up, you haven't done that.....You asked about M1a's and I take it you didn't like the answer, since you omitted speaking about it..... If you want to argue about how the FAL has a rosy future in this country and how three new companies are going to start making them next week for under $1,000, with new optics mounting options etc..... I'm all ears, tell me how it really is.

Posted: 8/26/2011 5:39:31 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

The most telling example of this is in the area of optics. All of the Legacy Rifles require half assed solutions to mount modern combat optics on them, Why? Because they weren't designed for them, it's really that simple.

I don't consider this to be particularly half-assed:

This I view as much more so:

As well as this:

As far as I'm concerned, the passing of time has made the FAL no less reliable or deadly. While I agree that the state of the art has moved on, something like the FAL serves me better than something like a SCAR-H. Acquisition costs, parts availability, "user base", etc...many criteria swing me the way of this "dead" war-horse, vs the younger, slicker offerings.

Posted: 8/26/2011 5:56:24 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The most telling example of this is in the area of optics. All of the Legacy Rifles require half assed solutions to mount modern combat optics on them, Why? Because they weren't designed for them, it's really that simple.

I don't consider this to be particularly half-assed:

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/FAL1.jpg

This I view as much more so:

http://www.gunreports.com/media/newspics/selector/15-12-FultonM14-1_1.jpg

As well as this:

http://www.airsoftgi.com/images/pic-020-ca-ak-side-support-B.jpg

As far as I'm concerned, the passing of time has made the FAL no less reliable or deadly. While I agree that the state of the art has moved on, something like the FAL serves me better than something like a SCAR-H. Acquisition costs, parts availability, "user base", etc...many criteria swing me the way of this "dead" war-horse, vs the younger, slicker offerings.

I have a DSA topcover on one rifle, it's OK, not great, Ok. Again, some of the Legacy rifles adapted better than others to optics...though an add on cheekpiece is usually needed with any of them for a real cheek weld etc....I've never said any of the "Big 3" were bad rifles, they're not, they just aren't "the future" of battle rifles in this country, they are at this point dead ends- which is why there are so few suppliers willing to tool up and spend the money to support the platforms.Hell, there are companies, several of them, making NEW AK magazines. A rifle that has sold 70 MILLION copies with mags out the wazoo, has companies making NEW MAGAZINES for it, unreal, why? Because the market will support it! The "big 3" battle guns are "living" off of the legacy of 50 years of Cold War military spending-not searing, new demand that begs for companies to enter the market. People bought Fals predominantly because they were cheap, mags were cheap, spare parts were cheap.....now they aren't.

Look at AR15's. How many companies make Ar's these days? Even .308 Ar variants....I can't even begin to count them. You can't say that a design is healthy when only one company is essentially keeping it alive- practically out of self interest–– they have no choice, they're invested! But notice that even DSA is making Ar's now......writing on the wall?

Posted: 8/26/2011 6:08:14 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Look at AR15's. How many companies make Ar's these days? Even .308 Ar variants....I can't even begin to count them. You can't say that a design is healthy when only one company is essentially keeping it alive- practically out of self interest–– they have no choice, they're invested! But notice that even DSA is making Ar's now......writing on the wall?

I must have misunderstood. I didn't understand anyone to be arguing that these 40, 50 year old designs are the future of modern weapons. That would be a ridiculous statement, IMO. However, being "not the future" is not the same as being "dead". A solid, reliable, proven design is just that...it may not be the lightest, or have features needed by .mil types (but not necessarily civilians), but it'll reliably go "bang" and put rounds on-target. I feel that describes the FAL well.

The AR platform has become so mainstream partially due to the modularity of the design. Tacticool CQB 7.62x39 rifle one moment, a 24" .556 bull barrel varmint sniper the next. The modularity has allowed an incredible amount of variation (and innovation, and techno-lust) to be bestowed upon this platform. Keep in mind, it too is a 50+ year old design at this point, and as of right now it -is- still the "future" of weaponry for the US .mil

That being said, my Mega MA-TEN set arrived at my receiving FFL yesterday. It'll be the heart of my 308 AR precision rig. I'm kicking around the idea of adding a LMT MWS to the stable as well. They'll be complimenting my FALs, not replacing them. Different tools for different jobs. The FAL is a proven design. The 308 AR is, IMO, still a civilian design that wears .mil clothes.

Posted: 8/26/2011 6:13:15 AM EDT

[#12]

Sportsman's Guide is selling accessories so you can make your FAL tacti-cool so there must be a demand.

Posted: 8/26/2011 6:22:53 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Look at AR15's. How many companies make Ar's these days? Even .308 Ar variants....I can't even begin to count them. You can't say that a design is healthy when only one company is essentially keeping it alive- practically out of self interest–– they have no choice, they're invested! But notice that even DSA is making Ar's now......writing on the wall?

I must have misunderstood. I didn't understand anyone to be arguing that these 40, 50 year old designs are the future of modern weapons. That would be a ridiculous statement, IMO. However, being "not the future" is not the same as being "dead". A solid, reliable, proven design is just that...it may not be the lightest, or have features needed by .mil types (but not necessarily civilians), but it'll reliably go "bang" and put rounds on-target. I feel that describes the FAL well.

The AR platform has become so mainstream partially due to the modularity of the design. Tacticool CQB 7.62x39 rifle one moment, a 24" .556 bull barrel varmint sniper the next. The modularity has allowed an incredible amount of variation (and innovation, and techno-lust) to be bestowed upon this platform. Keep in mind, it too is a 50+ year old design at this point, and as of right now it -is- still the "future" of weaponry for the US .mil

That being said, my Mega MA-TEN set arrived at my receiving FFL yesterday. It'll be the heart of my 308 AR precision rig. I'm kicking around the idea of adding a LMT MWS to the stable as well. They'll be complimenting my FALs, not replacing them. Different tools for different jobs. The FAL is a proven design. The 308 AR is, IMO, still a civilian design that wears .mil clothes.

That is certainly a valid argument although I would say that anything that isn't growing....is dying! Lol. Without new suppliers coming online it is hard to grow the base of users. Without user base there is no market, no market, no money...no money and the thing dies it's a vicious circle.

I really don't think we will see massive influxes of FAL rifles. First of all, all you are buying is a bolt and a top cover at this point. You have to replace 7 parts to make the "kit" into a US rifle....and you're not going to get an original barrel so what are you really buying? Second, I firmly believe, could be wrong but don't think I am, that the major Fal adopters are not going to sell those rifles, they'll destroy them- and we have already seen that several times now. The South Africans alone destroyed over 335,000 weapons....many were R1's. The Australians destroyed all of their SLR's as did the Austrians with their STG's- though in each case a few small lots of rifle kits made it out but only a tiny fraction of what was available.

Given the political mood in Canada and the UK right now I cannot see any way in which they would release rifle kits onto the international market. What's that leave? South America, India, the rest of socialist Europe and a whole cast of countries where you can't drink the water......I don't want ANYTHING from India etc..... Socialist Europe will probably destroy their rifles. In South America you have ONE producer of rifles, Imbel- the rest of the countries are mere users- and they USE them hard. I just don't see where a huge number of good kits is going to come from and even then, what are you really buying? Not much given no barrel and the fact that you have to replace so many other parts to be legal.

Posted: 8/26/2011 6:23:45 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Sportsman's Guide is selling accessories so you can make your FAL tacti-cool so there must be a demand.

Um no. Sportsmans Guide is the final resting place for the detritus of the "gun world". If anything that is more evidence the platform is in trouble!

Posted: 8/26/2011 6:38:08 AM EDT

[#15]

I suggest you all stop answering posts from Will and lock this thread. He clearly has the heart of a liberal, knows awfully a lot about number of destroyed guns all over the world, and he will always give sarcastic answers to prove his point. He is here to create trouble and pick up a discussion with anybody that likes FAL's. What I really don't understand is what someone who hates FAL's (the coment about Sportmans guide above is proof of that - funny because they sell stuff for the M1A too) keep doing on the FAL thread section.

Posted: 8/26/2011 6:56:44 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
I suggest you all stop answering posts from Will and lock this thread. He clearly has the heart of a liberal, knows awfully a lot about number of destroyed guns all over the world, and he will always give sarcastic answers to prove his point. He is here to create trouble and pick up a discussion with anybody that likes FAL's. What I really don't understand is what someone who hates FAL's (the coment about Sportmans guide above is proof of that - funny because they sell stuff for the M1A too) keep doing on the FAL thread section.

I've been here since there WAS an Arfcom. My record speaks for itself and it isn't a liberal one. Feel free to ask around, I have plenty of posts in the various tech forums etc....I know guns forward and backward- hell my parents met at a Winchester ammunition factory!

If you know anything about doing research (you know, the stuff that SUPPORTS ARGUMENTS, with like, EVIDENCE) it isn't that hard to find the numbers on destroyed weapons etc.... Also, because I was actively engaged in BUYING FAL RELATED parts (because I'm really a liberal, uh yea, that makes sense) etc...at the time when these things happened I KNOW about them firsthand. I'm not some Johnny Come Lately who thinks they know everything but has no argument or evidence and who tries to win by shutting down the debate. THAT is the hallmark of a real liberal!

I also didn't realize that sarcasm was a crime. Thank you for enlightening me on that point, though you will note in my response to Moto etc....that the level of my sarcasm is generally dependent on the argument I'm replying to.....something to consider.

ETA: I will give you $100 if you can find anything in any of the posts I have made in this thread that shows I hate the Fal. I don't. I own several, have built several in fact- got all the tools etc.....know what a breaching washer is etc.....I've never said it's not a decent rifle. It clearly is but it IS a dead end system at this point in this country- and I've said pretty much the same about the other legacy battle rifles.

Posted: 8/26/2011 11:07:24 AM EDT

[#17]

I think Will is contributing to a healthy discussion here. Just because one doesn't agree with points of argument made or the delivery of same (straightforward is not abusive) is no reason to restrict "speech" by requesting the discussion be ended and locked. No one is forcing anyone to read this thread or respond to it - I believe everyone has access to at least one "ignore" feature. And yes, this is all just my own opinion.

So is the FAL dead? Not mine - how about yours?

Posted: 8/26/2011 11:58:32 AM EDT

[#18]

I can see where Will is coming from, and his argument makes sense. I think he may even be right. If his version of the future for .mil FALs is correct, then we probably won't see any additional (significant) increase in US sales of the FAL. If the FAL had a boom in the 80's, then that's likely to be it's high water mark in the US.

The AR has become a MUCH more popular and socially accepted in the gun community since the '80s. With a plethora of 308 AR options available now, and prices competitive (or often cheaper than) a FAL, I think the 308 AR offerings may siphon many sales that would otherwise have gone to the FAL. While common elsewhere in the world, I think the FAL is relatively obscure to non-gun nuts here in the US. Even among gun nuts, see the AR comment above. Personally, I like the FAL because I view it as a solid 308 platform with AK like reliability, and "good enough" accuracy. I also like it's history, and it doesn't hurt that I think it's looks "cool". ;) With folks like DSA producing new guns, and the bazillions of FAL's already in the market, I don't feel I have to worry about parts availability.

Posted: 8/26/2011 1:23:57 PM EDT

[#19]

Not dead, but it will morph from a shooting platform to a collecting platform over time. However, it will be a long time.

Posted: 8/26/2011 5:34:11 PM EDT

[#20]

This is not GD. The wiseass bird DOES NOT fly in here. Keep it clean gentlemen. We can all learn from this thread.

HTR.

Posted: 8/27/2011 5:42:18 AM EDT

[#21]

Yes, the FAL is dead. I will do all of you a generous favor and give you $300 for each of your dead, archaic rifles to help you move on to bigger and better platforms.

Posted: 8/27/2011 9:57:23 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Long live the FAL!

Yep.

Posted: 8/27/2011 11:24:04 AM EDT

[#23]

As far as modern militarys are concerned, yes, it's dead. The only place you see them now are places like Libya, Africa, South America etc, 3rd world countries in all sorts of mismatched manner in the hands of half assed rebels. As far as the shooting enthusiast, they will never die. I think the rifle is an excellent one and something that can be used by the individual to great effect. Modern armies like light things that can spit out lots of rounds. The FAL is not one of those.

Posted: 8/29/2011 11:34:38 AM EDT

[#24]

I have owned my FAL since 2004 and it has gone through some growing pains to make it into what i wanted, but it has never failed on me unless it was a crap mag or bad reload. I have bought other battle rifles including an RFB (that is currently in the process of being sold) and none of them have come close to how the fal feels and functions. Another thing to contribute to its lack of popularity is no one really knows what they hell they are. Either my FAL is called a HK91 or a ar10.... not many people identify it as what it is a FAL. One of my first rifles and my main SHTF companion.

Posted: 8/29/2011 7:04:35 PM EDT

[#25]

I found this video relevant to the discussion:

Tactical Impact The Battle Rifle FAL & LSRC

Posted: 8/29/2011 8:35:46 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
The F.A.L. isn't dead, but teh Garand is better.

Maranatha 2 U.

LOL.

Posted: 8/30/2011 6:48:35 AM EDT

[#27]

I want a FAL

Posted: 9/22/2011 1:43:04 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Yes, it's dead. At this point it is a dead end platform- not a bad one, but simply a dead end. It began to die the moment that cheap magazines, parts kits, chrome lined foreign replacement barrels and receivers began to dry up. It's essentially been down hill since about 2006 or so. When you're paying as much for a FAL as you are an M1a, most shooters, sorry hardcore FAL guys, are going to pick the M1a.

I agree with this 100%. I got into the FAL game in the late 90's. For those of you who weren't paying attention to FAL's back then, parts kits, mags and ammo were cheap. It was like the AK market 6 years ago, only with slightly more expensive receivers. Retailers and gunshows were full of excellent condition parts kits. Imbel GL receivers were everywhere. You could buy decent 20rd mags at 3 for $10 and NIW mags were $5 each. Boatloads of nice South African surplus 7.62x51 were arriving several times a year. Even the excellent Hirtenberger 7.62x51 ammo was less expensive than Russian 7.62x39 is today. You could attend a build party and come out with a great rifle for $500 and it was cheap to shoot.

But right around 2006, the FAL train hit a brick wall. The parts kits dried up, then the SA surplus went away and was replaced by old, poorly stored ammo from Pakistan and India. Mag prices jumped 400% or more. Receivers became scarce.

In 2003, I bought this rifle from ORF. Then I sent it to VOW to have the barrel cut down and later added the DSA para kit. I've got less than $750 invested in this FAL and it would probably cost me at least 2x that much to build another one like it today, assuming I could even find another chrome lined barrel for a reasonable price. Not to mention the ~50 or so mags I bought at $3-$5 each back then and the crates of SA 7.62x51 I've burned through over the years.

It's been sitting under the seat of my truck for years and has digested many thousands of rounds, but now it rarely comes out to play since I'm down to my last crate of surplus ammo. It killed three hogs and a coyote last weekend, though. My son is three years old and one day he'll own this gun. I just hope he gets a good job so he can afford to shoot it. :)

Posted: 9/23/2011 4:30:17 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, it's dead. At this point it is a dead end platform- not a bad one, but simply a dead end. It began to die the moment that cheap magazines, parts kits, chrome lined foreign replacement barrels and receivers began to dry up. It's essentially been down hill since about 2006 or so. When you're paying as much for a FAL as you are an M1a, most shooters, sorry hardcore FAL guys, are going to pick the M1a.

I agree with this 100%. I got into the FAL game in the late 90's. For those of you who weren't paying attention to FAL's back then, parts kits, mags and ammo were cheap. It was like the AK market 6 years ago, only with slightly more expensive receivers. Retailers and gunshows were full of excellent condition parts kits. Imbel GL receivers were everywhere. You could buy decent 20rd mags at 3 for $10 and NIW mags were $5 each. Boatloads of nice South African surplus 7.62x51 were arriving several times a year. Even the excellent Hirtenberger 7.62x51 ammo was less expensive than Russian 7.62x39 is today. You could attend a build party and come out with a great rifle for $500 and it was cheap to shoot.

But right around 2006, the FAL train hit a brick wall. The parts kits dried up, then the SA surplus went away and was replaced by old, poorly stored ammo from Pakistan and India. Mag prices jumped 400% or more. Receivers became scarce.

In 2003, I bought this rifle from ORF. Then I sent it to VOW to have the barrel cut down and later added the DSA para kit. I've got less than $750 invested in this FAL and it would probably cost me at least 2x that much to build another one like it today, assuming I could even find another chrome lined barrel for a reasonable price. Not to mention the ~50 or so mags I bought at $3-$5 each back then and the crates of SA 7.62x51 I've burned through over the years.

http://hudsdad.com/pics/parafal1.jpg

It's been sitting under the seat of my truck for years and has digested many thousands of rounds, but now it rarely comes out to play since I'm down to my last crate of surplus ammo. It killed three hogs and a coyote last weekend, though. My son is three years old and one day he'll own this gun. I just hope he gets a good job so he can afford to shoot it. :)

G1 kits were $125- select, STG kits were always pricey at $229, Imbel (Chilean) kits were $89, South African R1 kits- beat usually, were $99.

Port, South African, Australian F4, Malaysian, Spanish Santa Barbara, British Radway Green .308- about $129-159 per thousand. If you bought 10,000 rounds at a time- which I did frequently for a couple of years there they would ship for free.

Receivers- Gear Logo Imbel, $189. Coonan $189.

DSA used metric 20 Rd mags, Austrian and sometimes Israeli- VG $5, VG+ $8.

Argentine chrome lined barrels, new, $49

Most of the guys don't even know who/what VOW is....or GG etc.....I can guarantee you they don't know shit about "Alumalite" receivers, yes, I bought TWO of those

...Those were the days- BUT, they are OVER and ain't coming back.

Posted: 9/23/2011 7:41:28 AM EDT

[#30]

Will wrote: "...When you're paying as much for a FAL as you are an M1a, most shooters, sorry hardcore FAL guys, are going to pick the M1a...." Count me out of "most." Before I purchased my SAR-48, I was in the market for, and seriously considered the S.A M1A and M1A Scout. The more I researched, the more I discovered that buying one of these new would mean several more hundred dollars of USGI parts to replace the ones coming from S.A. in these newer, "replica" rifles, parts that many persons had reported were not to gov spec and prone to failure.

I researched the FAL and found that for the same price I could find a new or lightly used SAR-48 that was built to military specs and arguably a simpler, more reliable rifle than newer S.A. M1A rifles. So I found a Springfield Armory SAR-48 and never looked back, as it functions flawlessly. Curiously, I recently found an advertisement from S.A. that was featured in gun mags some 20 years ago featuring the M1As and SARs together, best of the USA and NATO pitch. Dead, no, dead end, sure, for both the M1A/M14 and FAL, but regardless, be that as it may, and as we all know, the M14 and FAL are still hanging on, successfully deployed in combat zones today.

Posted: 9/23/2011 8:05:39 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
The FAL is NOT dead.

But everything within about 600 meters of it is ALL f'd up.

I lol'd

Posted: 9/23/2011 8:18:42 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I heard that a redesigned receiver is in the works. It is supposed to bring the FAL 21st century accuracy. If it works I'd rather have it than any other .308 platform.

You know I was just contemplating one of the FAL's weaknesses; the sighting options. The optics mounted to the dust cover is a sloppy afterthought and the front sight being on the upper and the rear sight being on the lower subject to the malady of reciever fit and slop to undercut acccuracy. The fal has a rep for poor accuracy or just battle accuracy capable.

Now if the reciever was made with a rear bridge to move the sight to it'd be better off as there'd be no wiggling moving the sight arrangement relative to the barrel. My vision would be a front picatanny block cast/machined in place in the carry handle area and the rear picatinny on the new bridge area of the receiver. Down the middle of the rear picatinny block you could have a folding tombstone rear sight like the L1A1 original. Or you could simply leave the original rear sight arrangement on the lower assembly.

LRB did a similar modification of the M14 receiver to get away from the side plate sight mount issues with the original M14 design. It's solid as heck from anything I've read.

Posted: 9/24/2011 10:37:51 AM EDT

[#33]

I think this is another debate that hinges entirely on semantics, because whether or not the FAL is dead depends on what you mean by "dead." If you consider a dead design to be one that isn't in a constant state of improvement and redesign, then there are only a handful of rifles that aren't dead. If you think that a dead design is one where nobody is selling all-new models and the only source for builds and parts is boutique gunsmith shops, then there are relatively few dead rifles––but the M1 Garand is an example. It seems like some people think that if an alternative they prefer exists, it makes other options dead; but that's just silly.

I favor the second explanation above, where nobody is making a new one and new replacement parts are rare, to be the best explanation. While FALs aren't as popular as they once were, they're still being actively manufactured and purchased, and new aftermarket parts are still coming out. By that definition, FALs are less "dead" than Sig rifles.

The problem is probably one of comparison. FALs enjoyed a brief period of unnatural availability in the US when other countries divested themselves of their FALs and moved to intermediate-caliber rifles. Going from that to relative popularity by the standards of any rifle that isn't an AR might seem like a dramatic drop, but it's just a return to normality.

Posted: 9/26/2011 3:38:25 AM EDT

[#34]

From my research reading various fourms, and articles on the FAL, most of the European countries have already smelted theirs. Parts kits were abundant and cheap in the 90s-early 2000s because of this.
I highly doubt you'll see any kits from Britian or Germany, or Belgium, because they've already been smelted or imported.
The ones in Africa and South America get used hard, until they are beat.
I think the current best hope is that the ones in Libya (which were in storage) can get imported as kits.
Hopefully in 2012 we will ditch Obama and barrels can be imported again, but that wishful thinking.
I don't consider the FAL dead, but dying or fading away.

Posted: 9/26/2011 4:43:59 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
From my research reading various fourms, and articles on the FAL, most of the European countries have already smelted theirs. Parts kits were abundant and cheap in the 90s-early 2000s because of this.
I highly doubt you'll see any kits from Britian or Germany, or Belgium, because they've already been smelted or imported.
The ones in Africa and South America get used hard, until they are beat.
I think the current best hope is that the ones in Libya (which were in storage) can get imported as kits.
Hopefully in 2012 we will ditch Obama and barrels can be imported again, but that wishful thinking.
I don't consider the FAL dead, but dying or fading away.

The problem is not with the politicians. It's with the fucking bureaucrats. ATF decided, on their own, that replacement barrels were not importable. This was during Bush's presidency. Again, if you ever see FAL kits in any numbers they are going to be thrashed pieces of shit with no barrels. So what are you really buying? It doesn't make sense to mess with kit builds anymore unless they were practically giving the kits away....they should be about $59 without the barrel but they will be 2-3x that if we ever see them again.

Posted: 9/26/2011 6:21:15 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
From my research reading various fourms, and articles on the FAL, most of the European countries have already smelted theirs. Parts kits were abundant and cheap in the 90s-early 2000s because of this.
I highly doubt you'll see any kits from Britian or Germany, or Belgium, because they've already been smelted or imported.
The ones in Africa and South America get used hard, until they are beat.
I think the current best hope is that the ones in Libya (which were in storage) can get imported as kits.
Hopefully in 2012 we will ditch Obama and barrels can be imported again, but that wishful thinking.
I don't consider the FAL dead, but dying or fading away.

The problem is not with the politicians. It's with the fucking bureaucrats. ATF decided, on their own, that replacement barrels were not importable. This was during Bush's presidency. Again, if you ever see FAL kits in any numbers they are going to be thrashed pieces of shit with no barrels. So what are you really buying? It doesn't make sense to mess with kit builds anymore unless they were practically giving the kits away....they should be about $59 without the barrel but they will be 2-3x that if we ever see them again.

which is why they torpedoed the barrel imports. It's the heart of the rifle. I wish I was into it when the complete FAL kits were a hundred bucks.

I think the real target was the AK kits. They were pure evil to the BATFE.

Posted: 9/27/2011 8:18:24 AM EDT

[#37]

Meh...I don't see what is so magical about making FAL bbls...I've made several.

Posted: 9/27/2011 9:29:55 AM EDT

[#38]

We have been making barrels for years its not super easy but its not super tough ether. I think many talk about the barrel thing because they want to build cheap FALs, but with the lack of GOOD kits and cheap Imbel receivers cheap the FAL will go away soon. That said a FAL even at $1700 is worth it in comparison to alloy AR types.

Posted: 9/27/2011 10:47:09 AM EDT

[#39]

I may be mistaken but I believe that stimpy there has made a FAL in 8mm using a Mauser barrel. Definately not a dead rifle system.

Posted: 9/27/2011 12:27:27 PM EDT

[#40]

Well I took my FAL to a small get together/shoot with some friends née ran some extremely short range scenarios with one being rifle based my big ole heavy FAL was just as efficient(other than the may issues) as the short little ARs. We covered one double tap with one target dot and the rest were all in the 10 zone of the face on the other targets. So to me the FAL didn't only not suck at it's perceived weakness CQB it was one of the elite tools there. Had wee needed to stretch out it would have left the others in the dust.

There will always be a place for the FAL but you can't get your feelings hurt when you go to a shoot and 98% of those there have either never held one or don't know what they are.

Posted: 9/27/2011 4:24:43 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I may be mistaken but I believe that stimpy there has made a FAL in 8mm using a Mauser barrel. Definately not a dead rifle system.

<––––-The Witch-king would settle for nothing less!

Course there was a lot more to that build than making a bbl.

Posted: 9/28/2011 1:39:51 PM EDT

[#42]

I see a lot of people complaining about shortage of surplus 7.62mm ammo crates. True. My solution is to feed your FAL whatever you are feeding your M1A. I am pretty sure there must be M14/M1A parts kit around, but I have nerver seen one. I still can google (and find) surplus FAL part kits for sale, as well as magazines, mostly 20 round surplus for about 20-25 dollars. How much is an M1A magazine? I can also find new 30 round magazines from DSA, and accdly to DSA pretty soon we will have new 20 round mags too.

Posted: 9/28/2011 5:00:05 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
I see a lot of people complaining about shortage of surplus 7.62mm ammo crates. True. My solution is to feed your FAL whatever you are feeding your M1A. I am pretty sure there must be M14/M1A parts kit around, but I have nerver seen one. I still can google (and find) surplus FAL part kits for sale, as well as magazines, mostly 20 round surplus for about 20-25 dollars. How much is an M1A magazine? I can also find new 30 round magazines from DSA, and accdly to DSA pretty soon we will have new 20 round mags too.

AIM Surplus has the DSA 20rd mags instock for less than $20. I guess the new mags are making there way to the market at a better price than surplus.

Posted: 9/28/2011 5:01:53 PM EDT

[#44]

Double tap.

Posted: 10/2/2011 8:00:25 PM EDT

[#45]

I have a PARA FAL built on an Imbel/unissued Argy kit and while the trigger holds no comparison to my SA M1A I swear it is just as accurate. Can't wait to move outta Ca
and take off the ridiculous fixed mag crap.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is the FAL dead? (Page 2 of 2)

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