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Posted: 8/18/2017 7:37:15 PM EDT
[#1]
And this is how you crush the HPA
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Posted: 8/18/2017 7:41:24 PM EDT
[#2]
I noticed the last form 4 I e-signed from Silencer Shop about a month ago had a QR barcode on it. Hopefully I'll see that can before the year is over with.
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Posted: 8/18/2017 7:43:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And this is how you crush the HPA The fact is, this is how change is made - hard work, cooperation and technology. Sitting around and hoping something will happen changes nothing. You get more people to be NFA owners to grow your constituency, then you have the power to take the whole system down. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 7:51:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed the last form 4 I e-signed from Silencer Shop about a month ago had a QR barcode on it. Hopefully I'll see that can before the year is over with. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 7:56:45 PM EDT
[#5]
I don't see a change. It doesn't take 12 months to enter the F1/4 information. Forms go pending in 30 days or less which means the data entry hasn't changed much in a very long time.
I recall F3's taking a year in the mid 2000's, F4's were longer. The only real change that mattered was when the NFA branch moved and hired all new personnel. F1/4's then started taking a few weeks. While the technology could be improved that isn't the bottleneck and never has been. What is the incentive to speed up the process and what are the consequences when they get slower? The answer to both is there are none. Only a lawsuit will solve any of this...just like last time. I see a great analytics tool for Silencer Shop though. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:03:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. The HPA has been crushed for some time. There is nothing here that will prevent the HPA efforts to continue. The fact is, this is how change is made - hard work, cooperation and technology. Sitting around and hoping something will happen changes nothing. You get more people to be NFA owners to grow your constituency, then you have the power to take the whole system down. My point was only that a[t 90-100 days or less, there will be a lot less whining and a lot fewer people calling their reps. So no, not actually crushed, but slowed. And I see an underlying method in it. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:03:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Cool beans.
Now just to get out of this commie state I live in. 
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:03:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't see a change. It doesn't take 12 months to enter the F1/4 information. Forms go pending in 30 days or less which means the data entry hasn't changed much in a very long time. I recall F3's taking a year in the mid 2000's, F4's were longer. The only real change that mattered was when the NFA branch moved and hired all new personnel. F1/4's then started taking a few weeks. While the technology could be improved that isn't the bottleneck and never has been. What is the incentive to speed up the process and what are the consequences when they get slower? The answer to both is there are none. Only a lawsuit will solve any of this...just like last time. I see a great analytics tool for Silencer Shop though. This alone won't change a thing long term. If it does improve short term, they will let things backslide - moving slower, reducing processors, whatever. If things ever do improve long term it will be because there is a meaningful commitment to get the job done and get it done in a timely manner - not because they have a data entry shortcut. Although proper tools are indeed an important component of efficiency, they are not the fix. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:15:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll make you a deal. Get me the formula for Coke and I'll tell you how the barcode system works 
Seriously though we can't share info about how the ATF system works. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:25:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just so there's no confusion, the QR codes are different. Those are used by Silencer Shop for internal purposes. These are standard barcodes, but if you purchased any time after July 11, you have one of the new ones as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I noticed the last form 4 I e-signed from Silencer Shop about a month ago had a QR barcode on it. Hopefully I'll see that can before the year is over with. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:29:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah. My form was submitted in late July, and I got an email from Silencer Shop saying the check was cashed on 8/4. Would this be in the range of being one of the newer barcoded forms? |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:38:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Why didn't the fucking e-forms already do that, did they print the damn thing just to retype it in?
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:41:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Makes me even more satisfied with the $2700 I just spent with SS and Dead Air this week.
Of course $800 of that was for tax stamps. 
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:55:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We are using this now. 
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:56:30 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:17:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't see a change. It doesn't take 12 months to enter the F1/4 information. Forms go pending in 30 days or less which means the data entry hasn't changed much in a very long time. I recall F3's taking a year in the mid 2000's, F4's were longer. The only real change that mattered was when the NFA branch moved and hired all new personnel. F1/4's then started taking a few weeks. While the technology could be improved that isn't the bottleneck and never has been. What is the incentive to speed up the process and what are the consequences when they get slower? The answer to both is there are none. Only a lawsuit will solve any of this...just like last time. I see a great analytics tool for Silencer Shop though. ...at least that's my first thoughts. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:33:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is correct a new system for the entire industry. This should keep wait times under 90 days after they clear out the old forms. 1) A cookie or config file with my dealer info that is read and auto-populated. If dealer is logged in to SS site, it auto-populates with that. Also auto-populate CLEO notification too. 2) Make it an app. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:34:44 PM EDT
[#18]
My mask HD(from silencershop) just was cashed 2 weeks ago. I miss all the cool shit
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:35:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is awesome. And the following will make it more awesome: 1) A cookie or config file with my dealer info that is read and auto-populated. If dealer is logged in to SS site, it auto-populates with that. Also auto-populate CLEO notification too. 2) Make it an app. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:36:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the statistic is true (on SS's website) that 50% of post-41F forms had errors, this basically cuts form handling time in half, or even more. The registry is populated automatically with a scan, and the forms are handled once instead of (at least) twice. ...at least that's my first thoughts. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:39:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe #1 is already a thing. They said it checks with ez-check and address/FF#, so that made me think those fields had to be entered. I will find out for sure soon enough! |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:52:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the statistic is true (on SS's website) that 50% of post-41F forms had errors, this basically cuts form handling time in half, or even more. The registry is populated automatically with a scan, and the forms are handled once instead of (at least) twice. ...at least that's my first thoughts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't see a change. It doesn't take 12 months to enter the F1/4 information. Forms go pending in 30 days or less which means the data entry hasn't changed much in a very long time. I recall F3's taking a year in the mid 2000's, F4's were longer. The only real change that mattered was when the NFA branch moved and hired all new personnel. F1/4's then started taking a few weeks. While the technology could be improved that isn't the bottleneck and never has been. What is the incentive to speed up the process and what are the consequences when they get slower? The answer to both is there are none. Only a lawsuit will solve any of this...just like last time. I see a great analytics tool for Silencer Shop though. ...at least that's my first thoughts. As someone who works for the government, I will tell you first-hand that when your shit is fucked up, it takes me three times as long and you five times as long before your shit gets approved. If your shit is squared away, I love you and want to mouth-kiss you, because you just saved my time, your time, and taxpayer dollars by having some damn common sense and doing what you were already supposed to be doing. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:58:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Pretty stoked about this.
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:03:06 PM EDT
[#24]
A lot of work went in to this project. And while it's not the deregulation revelation we've all been hoping for, it is a huge step forward for technology and mindset at the ATF.
I was being conservative in the article about wait times to avoid false hopes and broken promises. However, once the system really starts cranking, sub two month approvals are possible. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:10:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In before Silencerco issues a press release declaring barcodes illegal.  Now to see what the next bottle neck is after data entry. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:13:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any dealer can use it for free. If a dealer chooses not to use it they are just costing the customer time. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:26:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is awesome. And the following will make it more awesome: 1) A cookie or config file with my dealer info that is read and auto-populated. If dealer is logged in to SS site, it auto-populates with that. Also auto-populate CLEO notification too. 2) Make it an app.
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:43:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Question has been asked but not amswered. Will this pertain to Form 1's as well or just 4's? Hoping both is the answer. SS what do you all think you are an IT company or a silencer dealer? Silicon Valley. of Texas..
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:43:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Although every little bit helps, I thought the real hold up was the background check?
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:44:16 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the statistic is true (on SS's website) that 50% of post-41F forms had errors, this basically cuts form handling time in half, or even more. The registry is populated automatically with a scan, and the forms are handled once instead of (at least) twice. ...at least that's my first thoughts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't see a change. It doesn't take 12 months to enter the F1/4 information. Forms go pending in 30 days or less which means the data entry hasn't changed much in a very long time. I recall F3's taking a year in the mid 2000's, F4's were longer. The only real change that mattered was when the NFA branch moved and hired all new personnel. F1/4's then started taking a few weeks. While the technology could be improved that isn't the bottleneck and never has been. What is the incentive to speed up the process and what are the consequences when they get slower? The answer to both is there are none. Only a lawsuit will solve any of this...just like last time. I see a great analytics tool for Silencer Shop though. ...at least that's my first thoughts. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:45:30 PM EDT
[#31]
I see more suppressors then in my future, not sure if this is good or bad.
Get rid of the idiotic prints and photos crap too!!! 
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:52:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see more suppressors then in my future, not sure if this is good or bad. Get rid of the idiotic prints and photos crap too!!! |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 11:06:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe SS can explain it then. The forms still get scanned even with the barcode and the new system does not prevent users from entering incorrect information. I'm sure some error reduction will take place over hand written forms but how much of the current 12 month wait is from errors? |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 11:27:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question has been asked but not amswered. Will this pertain to Form 1's as well or just 4's? Hoping both is the answer. SS what do you all think you are an IT company or a silencer dealer? Silicon Valley. of Texas.. With all the variables that go into Form 1's, data quality is a challenge. However, if you use their Form 1 system, barcodes are currently being printed on those forms. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 11:38:57 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question has been asked but not amswered. Will this pertain to Form 1's as well or just 4's? Hoping both is the answer. SS what do you all think you are an IT company or a silencer dealer? Silicon Valley. of Texas.. To the second half of your comment... this is what happens when an IT guy starts a silencer store/distributor. As an IT guy myself, I love it. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:17:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Capitalism at work, friends.
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:20:14 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll make you a deal. Get me the formula for Coke and I'll tell you how the barcode system works
Seriously though we can't share info about how the ATF system works. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You guys need to explain how this actually works. The barcode seems to be a PDF417 and decodes correctly, but it seems to only have the transferee's name and address and a code that looks like an identifier for what sort of form and revision it's for. So how does the ATF get the rest of the information automatically? Or is there some special sauce in the barcode that a normal PDF417 decoder wont spit out? Does it link back to a database to pull the rest of the info somehow?
Seriously though we can't share info about how the ATF system works. There's no way for a simple barcode like that to contain all the info from the form. It could be done with a much more complex machine readable system. I don't see any alternative explanation than that all the customer's proprietary info is entered into their private website and captured, and then the info is transmitted to ATF through some other mechanism than the submitted forms. All the barcode is doing at ATF is telling their computer to recall the info from that other mode of transmission. I have privacy and information security qualms about this arrangement. As well as a concern that ATF has established some kind of electronic submission system which is only accessible by certain companies. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:33:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This very thing occurred to me after I posted earlier. There's no way for a simple barcode like that to contain all the info from the form. It could be done with a much more complex machine readable system. I don't see any alternative explanation than that all the customer's proprietary info is entered into their private website and captured, and then the info is transmitted to ATF through some other mechanism than the submitted forms. All the barcode is doing at ATF is telling their computer to recall the info from that other mode of transmission. I have privacy and information security qualms about this arrangement. As well as a concern that ATF has established some kind of electronic submission system which is only accessible by certain companies. That said, It's a valid concern and Silencershop should make a clear disclosure on the topic. EDIT: PDF417 data capacity: A single PDF417 symbol can theoretically hold up to 1850 alphanumeric characters, 2710 digits or 1108 bytes. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:39:47 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A single instance PDF417 barcode can hold over 1kb of data, this looks like a multi-tiered 3d barcode.... so... it seems possible. There isn't that much data actually entered by the end user on a Form 4. Most of it is the ATF gibberish. That said, It's a valid concern and Silencershop should make a clear disclosure on the topic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This very thing occurred to me after I posted earlier. There's no way for a simple barcode like that to contain all the info from the form. It could be done with a much more complex machine readable system. I don't see any alternative explanation than that all the customer's proprietary info is entered into their private website and captured, and then the info is transmitted to ATF through some other mechanism than the submitted forms. All the barcode is doing at ATF is telling their computer to recall the info from that other mode of transmission. I have privacy and information security qualms about this arrangement. As well as a concern that ATF has established some kind of electronic submission system which is only accessible by certain companies. That said, It's a valid concern and Silencershop should make a clear disclosure on the topic. So I don't if it's not working right yet, never worked, or reliant on shit way beyond my understanding. I do know it's not wrapping up and encoding all the form4's info into a barcode. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:54:20 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive been messing around with it, there doesn't even seem to be that much info in the barcode, a string of numbers that look and act like they just ID what type of form the code is for(ie it doesn't change form to form) and the Transferee's Name and Address, the best I can tell there's no difference in the codes except the transferee's info, so I don't know how it could even reference a specific database entry. So I don't if it's not working right yet, never worked, or reliant on shit way beyond my understanding. I do know it's not wrapping up and encoding all the form4's info into a barcode. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This very thing occurred to me after I posted earlier. There's no way for a simple barcode like that to contain all the info from the form. It could be done with a much more complex machine readable system. I don't see any alternative explanation than that all the customer's proprietary info is entered into their private website and captured, and then the info is transmitted to ATF through some other mechanism than the submitted forms. All the barcode is doing at ATF is telling their computer to recall the info from that other mode of transmission. I have privacy and information security qualms about this arrangement. As well as a concern that ATF has established some kind of electronic submission system which is only accessible by certain companies. That said, It's a valid concern and Silencershop should make a clear disclosure on the topic. So I don't if it's not working right yet, never worked, or reliant on shit way beyond my understanding. I do know it's not wrapping up and encoding all the form4's info into a barcode. Example of what I have found in the barcode... 5320010000000000FORM 4TRUST NAME123 STREETSACRAMENTOCA48347 So it appears just some token data that allows it to pull from a database - basically what the topical OP was concerned about. If that's the case, SilencerCo is collecting, storing, transmitting all data on each transfer that uses this system to generate the paperwork. It's like backdoor eforms, with a third party that has access to the data. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 12:59:28 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Question has been asked but not amswered. Will this pertain to Form 1's as well or just 4's? Hoping both is the answer. SS what do you all think you are an IT company or a silencer dealer? Silicon Valley. of Texas.. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:06:00 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're right. I generated one, and it's definetly PDF417. And I can't find anything that supports the barcode has all the entries encoded in it... Example of what I have found in the barcode... 5320010000000000FORM 4TRUST NAME123 STREETSACRAMENTOCA48347 So it appears just some token data that allows it to pull from a database - basically what the topical OP was concerned about. If that's the case, SilencerCo is collecting, storing, transmitting all data on each transfer that uses this system to generate the paperwork. It's like backdoor eforms, with a third party that has access to the data. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This very thing occurred to me after I posted earlier. There's no way for a simple barcode like that to contain all the info from the form. It could be done with a much more complex machine readable system. I don't see any alternative explanation than that all the customer's proprietary info is entered into their private website and captured, and then the info is transmitted to ATF through some other mechanism than the submitted forms. All the barcode is doing at ATF is telling their computer to recall the info from that other mode of transmission. I have privacy and information security qualms about this arrangement. As well as a concern that ATF has established some kind of electronic submission system which is only accessible by certain companies. That said, It's a valid concern and Silencershop should make a clear disclosure on the topic. So I don't if it's not working right yet, never worked, or reliant on shit way beyond my understanding. I do know it's not wrapping up and encoding all the form4's info into a barcode. Example of what I have found in the barcode... 5320010000000000FORM 4TRUST NAME123 STREETSACRAMENTOCA48347 So it appears just some token data that allows it to pull from a database - basically what the topical OP was concerned about. If that's the case, SilencerCo is collecting, storing, transmitting all data on each transfer that uses this system to generate the paperwork. It's like backdoor eforms, with a third party that has access to the data. Either way how this works seems a least a bit misrepresented. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:09:01 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't see a way to discriminate multiple forms from the same transferee. . I haven't done testing to demonstrate this but I can see the efficiency and effectiveness of it. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:21:46 AM EDT
[#44]
I got 2 types of great news yesterday.
My F4 came in and Silencer Shop puts this information out. Thank you for making the efforts you all have done in the last several years to improve the NFA process. 
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:54:51 AM EDT
[#45]
The pessimist in me can't help but think this is blunting one of our arguments for the HPA/whatever it's called now. Not that we should need it, but 'incompetent government bureaucracy' was one of the most undeniable ones.
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Posted: 8/19/2017 2:40:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You gotta think about it differently. Regardless of what caused the 12-month wait (which is volume), if you cut the handling time in half, the wait gets reduced because the stack clears faster. The person on the top of the stack doesn't notice it, but the one on the bottom sure does. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Maybe SS can explain it then. The forms still get scanned even with the barcode and the new system does not prevent users from entering incorrect information. I'm sure some error reduction will take place over hand written forms but how much of the current 12 month wait is from errors? |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 7:14:58 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The pessimist in me can't help but think this is blunting one of our arguments for the HPA/whatever it's called now. Not that we should need it, but 'incompetent government bureaucracy' was one of the most undeniable ones. If we ease up on the pressure to get HPA into law it is our own fault. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 7:31:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As someone who works for the government, I will tell you first-hand that when your shit is fucked up, it takes me three times as long and you five times as long before your shit gets approved. If your shit is squared away, I love you and want to mouth-kiss you, because you just saved my time, your time, and taxpayer dollars by having some damn common sense and doing what you were already supposed to be doing. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 8:46:52 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The number can remain the same, as long as the trust information differs. If the trust information is the same, the number would need to iterate. As it is, it can be unique when all combined. I haven't done testing to demonstrate this but I can see the efficiency and effectiveness of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't see a way to discriminate multiple forms from the same transferee. . I haven't done testing to demonstrate this but I can see the efficiency and effectiveness of it. |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 9:08:27 AM EDT
[#50]
I don't think all of the form information is embedded in the barcode. Looks like they are using an index key to reference information from a database to populate the ATF input application. So this eliminates where the form would orginally have been input manually into the system for future review/processing. The error elimination I see being on the ATF end to prevent fat fingering data input so Silencershop keys the data for the ATF preventing reinput so less chance of errors after everything is orginally verified.
Makes you wonder where the data is housed and how it is shared with the ATF. Don't really want my address and info of my NFA goodies floating around especially without my consent to this method. Now if it was fully disclosed and risks were noted then all good but seems peoples information is being used in "beta" testing a method of data transport between Silencershop and the ATF. Maybe this will speed things up and be a start to doing Form 4s though efile because thats basically what this sounds like. |
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