Quoted: Quoted: BiggerStick So we should support companies that only outsource their labor to commy countries?  As long as they come up with their own designs? I think we should try to avoid companies that manufacture in communist countries all together. I also think we should try to avoid American companies that obviously steal designs from others (I fully realize this would be almost impossible to sort out).

Wait...so, you've NEVER bought a Chinese product? You've never bought anything at Walmart?

You ride a bicycle to work? Don't forget, we buy a significant amount of oil from OPEC nations, how can you be sure that you aren't getting oil from the enemy? FFS, Libya? Saudi Arabia (they are NOT our friends)? Venezuela of all places?

Let's not beat around the bush here. If quality is the issue, I'll spend the cash. That's why the PC I run is American-made high quality. But there really ain't much of a difference mag pouches between 2 companies. When I can, without compromising on quality, I'm going to buy the cheaper product.

You end up giving a LOT more money to enemies than you think. $50 for a few pouches is nothing compared to the thousands you spend on gas every year.

I can see not wanting to compromise on quality, but "yer givin' it to them damn commies" isn't really a valid excuse, considering that we spend money on enemy-made imports every day of the week.

In business nowadays...there is no such thing as ethics.  It's all about the bottom line and the bottom line is profit.

Frankly moot point in my book.  Soon everything will be made in china and imported to the US for cheaper than it can be made here, it's quickly becoming that way.  Oh well, what-ya-gonna do?  World's changing, time to hang on and go for a ride.

Commies or not, someones getting your money.  Which is worse, it going to a commie or it going to a corrupt politician?

Quoted: Wait...so, you've NEVER bought a Chinese product? You've never bought anything at Walmart? You ride a bicycle to work? Don't forget, we buy a significant amount of oil from OPEC nations, how can you be sure that you aren't getting oil from the enemy? FFS, Libya? Saudi Arabia (they are NOT our friends)? Venezuela of all places? Let's not beat around the bush here. If quality is the issue, I'll spend the cash. That's why the PC I run is American-made high quality. But there really ain't much of a difference mag pouches between 2 companies. When I can, without compromising on quality, I'm going to buy the cheaper product. You end up giving a LOT more money to enemies than you think. $50 for a few pouches is nothing compared to the thousands you spend on gas every year. I can see not wanting to compromise on quality, but "yer givin' it to them damn commies" isn't really a valid excuse, considering that we spend money on enemy-made imports every day of the week.

Brandon, of course I have bought Chinese made goods. I am guilty of shopping at Wal-Mart. I drive an SUV that sucks down a lot of fuel.

The point of this thread was simply to point out that in the gear industry there are a lot of small gear companies that are run by good hard working guys that make this gear by hand and I just hate seeing the trend of people bypassing these guys and buying Chinese knock-offs.

It just seems to me that the gear industry is on of the last places where I can actually talk to the people making the products. I can give feedback and get answers directly from the people doing the work. Examples would be ESS Tactical, Kifaru, EGL, etc.

I chose to start this thread because I decided not to disrespect others by posting my feelings in the threads they had started about the Chinese gear they had purchased. I decided to post it here and get it off my chest. To each his own. I'm sorry some of you guys can't understand where I am coming from. I wasn't trying to bash anyone, just trying to get some to think twice about what they were doing.

Quoted: You get what you pay for, regardless of where it was made. You need to take a close look at some of this foreign made gear.  Some is crap, but some appears to be on par with what American manufacturers are putting out.

I have, the only high quality gear I've found coming out of China is Emdom.   I have a chinese rifle case that looks like a high end case and it's perfect for what I use it for.  It's only purpose is to go from the garage to the range and then back. For that it works great.  But I surely wouldn't use it as a drag bag and expect it to hold up for long.

Quoted: Actually it's more like comparing an RRA to a Bushmaster AR... or an RIA to a Daly 1911 if you prefer the 3rd world comparison.

Actually it's like comparing Harbor Freight hand tools to Snap On.  If you hardly use them and when you do you don't abuse them they're great.  But if you use them a lot and abuse them they break.  Not to say I've never broke snap on tools or high end gear, but they both last a lot longer then the cheap copies.

Would you buy rappelling gear or other safety equipment that's imported from China and made with low quality materials, low quality control, and  by a person making $3 a day or would you spend the extra money on high quality equipment you know you can count on?  That's how I feel about my gear.  

So, you get what you pay for regardless of where it was made. If you buy cheap gear at half price don't be surprised when it only lasts half as long as the high end stuff.  It's no different then any other industry.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
-Martin Niemoller

How does this apply? Well the "Globalist Elite" that continue to dismantle and move America's manufacturing base to countries where the prevailing wage is 50 cents or less a day will soon come for your job. Yes thats right YOU!

The jobs that went overseas and now the 3rd world immigrants they are bringing here purposefully to take our IT and engineering jobs ( Indians, Pakistanis ) as well as our blue collar jobs ( Hispanics ) will soon find a prevailing wage belittled to that of poverty status.

Soon they will come for YOUR job! The wave of immigrants and open borders is not a mistake folks.

People are so brain washed to defend these corporations, believing they are defending capitalism of course. Shame on any of you that defend this school of thought. In my opinion you are the enemy of the American people and American workers. Furthermore; what is sad most proponents of these predatory capitalist tactics dont even realize it.

Your wanting to buy some crappy piece of gear because its cheaper ( Made overseas ) Thats of course because your dollar isnt worth anything anymore and your trying to stretch them. Basic Hegel theory is being applicated here..  

{Img} Crying Indian on horesback from the 70's " Don't litter commercials "{Img}

Note* I totally support Laisezz Faire capitalism just not predatory capitalism when it hurts my country and its people economically.

Please buy American when you can, and feed an American family.

Very well put, biggerstick.  

Well if folks working in textile plants within the United States didn't need to make $20.00 and hour maybe the American stuff wouldn't be so expensive.

Everyone wants to blame free trade, but no one wants to take a pay cut to stay competitive.  

I mean unions are still asking for more money and more benefits its kind of nuts.

I've seen auto union guys who are making $70,000 a year for screwing on a bolt and have cabins, boats, ATV, and just about every toy on earth with a high school degree.  I support union members having living wages, but maybe they've gone just a tad over board?  

SilentType, good point.

Patriotism is no substitute for competitive sales. If these guys cut the prices of their products even a bit, people would be happy to pay a couple more bucks for higher quality gear. But 4x as much for higher quality gear?

Let's look at who is REALLY getting shafted here. A PHD in microbiology makes, on average, something like 60,000 a year. A PI (head of a lab) will make something like $100,000 a year.

That's not much more (and in some cases less) than many union-backed jobs, despite requiring a much greater degree of technical expertise.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You need to re-read my original post. I said this wasn't about the quality. It is about ethics, plain and simple. This wasn't a personal attack against you or you Phantom thread, either. Sorry, but I'd suggest your "ethics" are a bit skewed. I'd classify it as your opinion. This doesn't have a damn thing to do with ethics. My ethics are skewed? I believe it is unethical to support the Chinese COMMUNIST government. That is skewed? Maybe you missed the part where I have already stated, thats YOUR OPINION. While you are entitled to it, it does not some how make it fact. It's business plain and simple. The problem with business today is the lack of ethics. Please. Look no further then our OWN backyard rather then decry China. The word Enron ring a bell? Some people don't have a damn clue. You don't like buying products made in China? Don't buy it. It truly is no different then a person preferring not to buy foreign cars. Ethics has nothing to do with it, its a personal choice. It's not the same thing as buying a car made in countries that are our allies. And I make that personal choice because I believe it is UNETHICAL. Actually its EXACTLY like it. YOU are the one attempting to differentiate because China remains a Communist country.

I would highly recommend you actually educate yourself rather then sitting on some silly moral high horse. Especially on something so trivial as "tactical gear" made in China.

China's Search for Stability With America

Sino-Russian Energy Ties

China, ASEAN Economic, Trade Ties Speed Up

International Economy



Whether you would care to agree or disagree, China is VITAL to US economy, like it ....or not.

Blackwind, you missed the entire point of my post. It was very simple and I have repeated it within the thread. RIF.

Quoted: all i know is that i was deeply saddened when i found out emdom stuff was made in china. american designed, foreign made. their pouches are freaking great, especially mounted on my american made RAID pack.

I know how you feel Hank. My biggest issue with Emdom is that their name is EMDOM USA, and their logo is misleading considering they don't make their gear here. They should rename the company EMDOM CHICOM.

Quoted: Blackwind, you missed the entire point of my post. It was very simple and I have repeated it within the thread. RIF.

Actually, I didn't.

-You see an ethical issue where there isn't one.
-You would prefer everyone buy American rather some Chinese "knockoff."
-You're a gear whore


That about sum it up?

Rather then trying to support your opinion as some ethical issue or wrap it in some other moral high horse, just call it what it is. Your opinion…and leave it at that.

^ x2

Some things are better left UNPOSTED

Quoted: Quoted: Blackwind, you missed the entire point of my post. It was very simple and I have repeated it within the thread. RIF. Actually, I didn't. -You see an ethical issue where there isn't one. Your opinion. -You would prefer everyone buy American rather some Chinese "knockoff." Correct. -You're a gear whore Correct. That about sum it up? Close. You see, my opinion is that buying this stuff is unethical. Your opinion is that it is not. That's a difference of opinions, not facts. Rather then trying to support your opinion as some ethical issue or wrap it in some other moral high horse, just call it what it is. Your opinion…and leave it at that. I have stated before that it is my opinon. It is my opinion that it is unethical. I never staed that my opinion was fact, simply my opinion. If anyone is on a their high-horse, it is you (in my opinion).

Quoted: Quoted: I've seen auto union guys who are making $70,000 a year for screwing on a bolt and have cabins, boats, ATV, and just about every toy on earth with a high school degree.     Well, it's good that they spend every nickle they make.  It's like a belated rebate for buying their cars. See how much the chicom workers buy from you.  Oh, that's right...zilch.  They only buy stuff made in communist China.

Last I checked in our F'd up economy is that 70k is like minimum wage to live the American Dream.. But hey these are just lil' pop riveters and bolt turners.. They dont deserve the American dream.

I say everyone needs collective bargaining with Big Business. That way someone doesnt feel left out and point their finger at those that make more than they do.

I have to take the side of the American Worker here.. Instead of Communist China in bed with American Big Business elites..

We need our markets protected to stay competitive.. And that isnt currently happening in the US.

ill add my two cents since i make gear( not tactical yet) but backpacking gear.

What you pay for one of my silnylon tarps or anyones else for that matter.. 1 sale will  buy enough fabric  to make alomost 10 more.

on avg a 6x8 runs 100+ $ usd.   on my home set up nothing fancy machine,,i can whip that out in under 1 hour. have under 30$ in product...if that! since my 1st one paid for the rest!  i sell them for 20$ over my cost, becuase its a hobby and side deal...

I just bought some china gear.. and ill let you know why.

1- its cheap, and im strapped ,just moved new job, but need the gear now!
2- side by side, i see no difference, in fabric or quality.

im sure there are QC issues at times,, but where isnt there? i have handled some of the major brands of gear. while some are very well built others i havent been impressed with AT ALL.

like anything else these days we have drove up the price of every thing becuase of greed. its that simple.

Yo,

Hows it going Protus? I have been making my own gear now since October.. I have invested about 5k in material and machine etc... My intent is to one day compete with the BIG boys..

To cut out a pouch takes me about an hour by hand.. To sew one up takes me about 15 min. or so.

Ok simple math.. how much do i want to make an hour as a self employed person?

I didnt get into this business to make Walmart door greeter wages

im sure you and others can appreciate that..

ST

protus, Storm_Tracker, good luck to both of you with your business. I hope you guys make more than Wal-Mart employees or fry cooks, or else what is the point?

Quoted: protus, Storm_Tracker, good luck to both of you with your business. I hope you guys make more than Wal-Mart employees or fry cooks, or else what is the point?

my  reason for getting into it was to help folks not have to drop 100+$ on a 40$ item. it was really that simple for me.  You make a well built low cost product folks will buy it.
Some of these "tactical" deals are insane at the cost etc.  i could understand if it was 3 mexicans with 70$ white machines in a rental shed,, but i doubt any of  their shops are outfitted or look as such.  

PPl will continue to buy china mart stuff untill it falls apart in hand or is to costly.

sorry but the 1st time i held a sds  and a paraclete rack etc   my words where

" wtf... is this thing gonna hold up"

ive been runnning a izzy recon vest9R1).. and for teh price it isnt worth how its built IMHO,, but since i build stuff and sew... it takes alot to impress me!

Quoted: Here's another scenario to think about. Crye Precision recently decided to liscense Multicam. They made a lawful agreement with allow TruSpec to print Multicam, and produce gear/clothing. TruSpec has decided to have that clothing sewn in Honduras. This is something that Crye Precision is fully aware of and made the decision to do business with TruSpec. That is entirely different than what all the Chinse companies did. They actually printed their own copy of Crye's pattern without giving one dime to the company that invested so much of their time and money into designing Multicam. They stole Crye's work. IMO, what TruSpec did was not unethical. What the Chinese companies did was absolutely unethical. There is a difference.

Ok, I see where you are coming from.

You are talking about preserving intellectual proprietary laws.  I misunderstood your original intent of this thread.

I thought you were just bashing companies that decided to invest in China.  You are talking about stealing ideas and copyrights/patents.

I agree, purchasing stolen property is unethical.

Now, would I have known that stuff was stolen patented material?  It is a US company that is selling it and was not issued a cease and desist.....how am I to know if it is a stolen idea?

Someone please help me with this....

Quoted: *SNIP* that said, i still say buy american whenever possible. (says the honda driver )

Damn, that's a whole other issue. Your Honda was probably built here. My personal vehicle is a Nissan Xterra which was built in the US (Tennessee). My work vehicle is a Ford, which was built in Mexico.

Quoted: Quoted: Here's another scenario to think about. Crye Precision recently decided to liscense Multicam. They made a lawful agreement with allow TruSpec to print Multicam, and produce gear/clothing. TruSpec has decided to have that clothing sewn in Honduras. This is something that Crye Precision is fully aware of and made the decision to do business with TruSpec. That is entirely different than what all the Chinse companies did. They actually printed their own copy of Crye's pattern without giving one dime to the company that invested so much of their time and money into designing Multicam. They stole Crye's work. IMO, what TruSpec did was not unethical. What the Chinese companies did was absolutely unethical. There is a difference. Ok, I see where you are coming from. You are talking about preserving intellectual proprietary laws.  I misunderstood your original intent of this thread. I thought you were just bashing companies that decided to invest in China.  You are talking about stealing ideas and copyrights/patents. I agree, purchasing stolen property is unethical. Now, would I have known that stuff was stolen patented material?  It is a US company that is selling it and was not issued a cease and desist.....how am I to know if it is a stolen idea? Someone please help me with this....

It is very hard to know if it's a stolen patent. I ordered a chest rig once that was advertised as a "special limited run by Arktis in Crye Multicam". When I received it, it was obviously not real Multicam and it was not made by Arktis (hell, it even had a "Made in China" tag in it). I was pissed and sent it back.

But I am talking about a layperson not being able to recognize.  For instance:  I have no idea who designs what plate carriers.  All I know is that I want one.  Obviously there are patents on things, and there are obvious infractions on those patents.

So, when I get a plate carrier that is cheap, how am I supposed to know that Eagle had a patent on it?  Unless I know who the company is, know their products first hand, I am not going to realize I have a product that has infringed on proprietary laws.

Not only this, but a company is being allowed to offer this product without restriction.  This tells me upfront that it is not doing anything wrong.  If they have not ceased sales, then obviously there is no infringement.  That is my thinking and much of the consumer's thoughts as well.

I guess it is up to the companies who patent those items to seek out those companies ripping them off before some unwary customer (like me) goes and buys a ripped off item.

FWIW, companies who do business overseas kinda expect that somethings will get leaked, copied, or stolen.  It's part of the game called big business

Quoted: FWIW, companies who do business overseas kinda expect that somethings will get leaked, copied, or stolen.  It's part of the game called big business

Crye Precision doesn't seem to agree with you. www.multicampattern.com/infringers.htm

Also for anyone buying off of Ebay especially:

Watch out for things sold from California, as I ordered a pair of what I THOUGHT was a used Multicam uniform.  When it gets here, it has a Hong Kong postmark and Chinese all over the package.  70 bucks, gone in a scam.  The counterfeiters used the destination port as a seller location to avoid suspicion.  Last time I take the cheap way.

Can someone PLEASE tell me:  If there is an infringement of a patent on some of the Cheaper Than Dirt items, why are they still offering it???

Also, what about the Phantom stuff???

Quoted: Can someone PLEASE tell me:  If there is an infringement of a patent on some of the Cheaper Than Dirt items, why are they still offering it??? Also, what about the Phantom stuff???

I doubt those designs are patented. But you could always call Eagle and ask them, especially about the Phantom stuff which is often sold as "Phantom Eagle".

Many gear makers do not patent their gear.  I think a lot of it has to do with the old axiom "there are only so many ways to piece together cordura with thread".

There is just a sort of "don't copy me and I won't copy you" vibe.  These companies always improve on their own or other concepts, that's not the real issue if you ask me.

The real issue, and the one most important to this thread, is when some offshore company, DIRECTLY COPIES a US product and uses it as a direct competitor at prices that are not competitive.  Remember, capitalism and market economy principles do not generally account for insertion of a communist (and therefore artificial) labor and industrial capacity to produce cloned goods (at prices not possible for the host economy) into our market.  The copying of goods at artificially low (and therefore non-competitive) prices is the ETHICAL problem for those of you that like to point out that there is no ethical component at play.  Yes, I know that's specifically how Wal-Mart et al gets wealthy, but we are talking gear here, not woks and plastic tubs.

Hey Protus, how would you feel if I hired 3 Mexicans and gave them a shed and materials identical to yours and started providing SF members and others your designs for $10 shipped?  Now imagine you were making your goods to pay yourself and your hardworking employees?  See where it gets sticky?

IF these companies were offering a wholly new or generational improvement over US designs and marketing them as such, that is free market economy.  That is clearly not what they are doing.

Even the knockoff company names play on US names.  Phantom "Eagle", "Condor" (lol, at least it's a different KIND of bird, but you get the idea) etc.

bah

There is a lot of grey area here, but some things to consider...

Eagle didn't invent the backpack, nor is their backpack particularly innovative above and beyond the fact that the quality of the build is high.  When you buy a $50 backpack from China to take to the range and back, perhaps your expectations are a little different or at least should be.  I think a lot of people that buy these aren't buying them because they want  Eagle's particular design (again it's just a backpack).  They are just looking for a cordora bag with some molle in olive drab for less than $200.  This seems reasonable.

Now with multicam, perhaps it's a little different.  They have a particular pattern which I'm sure is copywrited or patented.  There's some actual innovation here.  The guys in China are making money which may have actually gone to the folks that put a lot of time and dollars into creating it.  I don't know if tax dollars were invested in the R&D process, but this may make a difference.

That aside, the idea the buying American products is inherently better or more ethical is silly.  Just because we happen to be in the lucky sperm club (born in the US), doesn't mean we diserve more than the guy in china.  The guy working in the textile mill in communist china wouldn't have a job if he didn't have the shitty 50cents per day job.  By supporting him maybe he buys an american product, maybe not.  But the idea that we deserve to make more money because we all live here is crazy.

The reason China is able to produce goods a lower rates is simply because the people there are willing to work for less money, because they don't have any other option.  By taking away the crap jobs they have they will then have nothing.  I say support the sweatshops because the sweatshops with lower profit margins and less sales will be much worse than those that are making money, and having a crap job is better than no job.

If we buy foreign products are we doomed to be homeless?  No.  We are only doomed to be homeless when we stop creating some real value.  When we provide nothing that foreign countries want to buy that's when we lose our jobs.  Rewarding American companies for high prices and lack of effeciency because they are American will further contribute to this (ie see the auto industry).

Quoted: There is a lot of grey area here, but some things to consider... Eagle didn't invent the backpack, nor is their backpack particularly innovative above and beyond the fact that the quality of the build is high.  When you buy a $50 backpack from China to take to the range and back, perhaps your expectations are a little different or at least should be.  I think a lot of people that buy these aren't buying them because they want  Eagle's particular design (again it's just a backpack).  They are just looking for a cordora bag with some molle in olive drab for less than $200.  This seems reasonable.

Then it is reasonable that the Chinese companies do not need to directly copy every aspect of the Eagle bag.  Since "Eagle didn't invent the backpack, nor is the backpack particulary innovative above and beyond...", there is no need for it to be copied, why not design a better pack for that much money?  After all, "a lot of people that buy these aren't buying them because they want Eagle's particular design".  Bullshit, they are deliberately going after Eagle's market for that explicit pack design.  There isn't much that's gray about that.

Now with multicam, perhaps it's a little different.  They have a particular pattern which I'm sure is copywrited or patented.  There's some actual innovation here.  The guys in China are making money which may have actually gone to the folks that put a lot of time and dollars into creating it.

Are you saying that Eagle didn't put a lot of time and money into creating their designs, or HSGI, or Esstac, or TAG, or Paraclete et al?  Is the patent the only benchmark for a copy being ethical?

I don't know if tax dollars were invested in the R&D process, but this may make a difference.

Are you saying that if tax dollars were used that somehow this means the Chinese are free to copy it? Perhaps you could clarify what difference this makes.

That aside, the idea the buying American products is inherently better or more ethical is silly.

No it isn't, but that is a matter of perspective.  I would have no problem buying a Chinese product that filled my needs, as long as it wasn't a deliberate attempt to steal a design from an American company.

Just because we happen to be in the lucky sperm club (born in the US), doesn't mean we diserve more than the guy in china.

The philosophy of equality amongst men at the birth level is a bit of a reach for this thread.  Oh and WTF?

The guy working in the textile mill in communist china wouldn't have a job if he didn't have the shitty 50cents per day job.

Sure he would, he would be assigned other duties or quickly relegated to non-productive and jailed or perhaps executed as a long-term drain on society.

By supporting him maybe he buys an american product, maybe not.  But the idea that we deserve to make more money because we all live here is crazy.

Are you even being serious here?

The reason China is able to produce goods a lower rates is simply because the people there are willing to work for less money, because they don't have any other option.

Yeah, communism is a suck day for all its subjects.  Are you aiming for sympathy for the guy that sews up this stuff? Cause he's got nothing to do with it.

By taking away the crap jobs they have they will then have nothing.  I say support the sweatshops because the sweatshops with lower profit margins and less sales will be much worse than those that are making money, and having a crap job is better than no job.

[Billy Bob Thornton]Are you fucking with me?[/Billy Bob Thornton]

If we buy foreign products are we doomed to be homeless?  No.  We are only doomed to be homeless when we stop creating some real value.  When we provide nothing that foreign countries want to buy that's when we lose our jobs.  Rewarding American companies for high prices and lack of effeciency because they are American will further contribute to this (ie see the auto industry).

I've lost the will to go on with this post.

Nice first post by the way.  Either this is one for the Hall of Fame, or you are seriously pulling a major hoax here.

ETA: I sort of violated my own "don't go off in threads" rule.  My bad.  Apologies for being to serious about this

Quoted: The reason China is able to produce goods a lower rates is simply because the people there are willing to work for less money, because they don't have any other option.  By taking away the crap jobs they have they will then have nothing.  I say support the sweatshops because the sweatshops with lower profit margins and less sales will be much worse than those that are making money, and having a crap job is better than no job.

 At first I thought this was a serious post until I read the above paragraph.

Quoted: Quoted: The reason China is able to produce goods a lower rates is simply because the people there are willing to work for less money, because they don't have any other option.  By taking away the crap jobs they have they will then have nothing.  I say support the sweatshops because the sweatshops with lower profit margins and less sales will be much worse than those that are making money, and having a crap job is better than no job.  At first I thought this was a serious post until I read the above paragraph.

Yup, I think I've been had.

Poster: You need to ratchet up the sarcasm and hyperbole just a touch so we don't get all freaked out around here.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The reason China is able to produce goods a lower rates is simply because the people there are willing to work for less money, because they don't have any other option.  By taking away the crap jobs they have they will then have nothing.  I say support the sweatshops because the sweatshops with lower profit margins and less sales will be much worse than those that are making money, and having a crap job is better than no job.  At first I thought this was a serious post until I read the above paragraph. Yup, I think I've been had. Poster: You need to ratchet up the sarcasm and hyperbole just a touch so we don't get all freaked out around here.

+1 Your delivery was a little too subtle. "I say support the sweatshops"....you're such a humanitarian.

Quoted: Quoted: Now with multicam, perhaps it's a little different.  They have a particular pattern which I'm sure is copywrited or patented.  There's some actual innovation here.  The guys in China are making money which may have actually gone to the folks that put a lot of time and dollars into creating it. Are you saying that Eagle didn't put a lot of time and money into creating their designs, or HSGI, or Esstac, or TAG, or Paraclete et al?  Is the patent the only benchmark for a copy being ethical?

I can think of at least 3 or 4 American gear manufacturers who make basically identical "3-day assault packs". Which one of them owns the "intellectual property" of the 3-day pack? Are the other companies being "unethical" by making similar 3-day packs? Is it somehow less unethical for an American gear manufacturer to copy the 3-day pack than a Chinese one?

Originally Posted By Sigurd I can think of at least 3 or 4 American gear manufacturers who make basically identical "3-day assault packs". Which one of them owns the "intellectual property" of the 3-day pack? Are the other companies being "unethical" by making similar 3-day packs? Is it somehow less unethical for an American gear manufacturer to copy the 3-day pack than a Chinese one?

Is your argument with me or with any of these companies?  I am referring to blatant COPIES of US gear by Chinese manufacturers and the ethical and economic implications of their offering direct copy gear in this market.  

But if you want to take the thread on a tangent that has nothing to do with my analysis of that post:  I'll bite. (mods forgive me for the off topicness lol)

First, if you read some of my previous posts on this topic, I mentioned a couple of concepts that should make this pretty clear.

1. There's only so many ways you can put together Cordura and thread.  Let's say, to make a bag with a zipper on it and some shoulder straps eh?

2. The real issue here is DIRECT COPYING of gear designed ("based" on something else or not) and produced by a US company.

That said, which of these companies directly copy each-others gear?  BTW, lets leave out Blackhawk for this discussion since that's a whole other issue and we are already off topic enough.

Is the Tactical Tailor 3 day pack a copy of the Eagle AIII or vice versa?  Or maybe they are variations on a theme?  I submit that if you put together all the packs of a similar profile or purpose by the US makers you will find more than enough significant differences to prove my point.

Quoted: Originally Posted By Sigurd I can think of at least 3 or 4 American gear manufacturers who make basically identical "3-day assault packs". Which one of them owns the "intellectual property" of the 3-day pack? Are the other companies being "unethical" by making similar 3-day packs? Is it somehow less unethical for an American gear manufacturer to copy the 3-day pack than a Chinese one? Is your argument with me or with any of these companies?  I am referring to blatant COPIES of US gear by Chinese manufacturers and the ethical and economic implications of their offering direct copy gear in this market.   But if you want to take the thread on a tangent that has nothing to do with my analysis of that post:  I'll bite. (mods forgive me for the off topicness lol) First, if you read some of my previous posts on this topic, I mentioned a couple of concepts that should make this pretty clear. 1. There's only so many ways you can put together Cordura and thread.  Let's say, to make a bag with a zipper on it and some shoulder straps eh? 2. The real issue here is DIRECT COPYING of gear designed ("based" on something else or not) and produced by a US company. That said, which of these companies directly copy each-others gear?  BTW, lets leave out Blackhawk for this discussion since that's a whole other issue and we are already off topic enough. Is the Tactical Tailor 3 day pack a copy of the Eagle AIII or vice versa?  Or maybe they are variations on a theme?  I submit that if you put together all the packs of a similar profile or purpose by the US makers you will find more than enough significant differences to prove my point.

Eagle had the original A III assault pack. London Bridge and Blackhawk are copies.. along with everyone else..

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker Eagle had the original A III assault pack. London Bridge and Blackhawk are copies.. along with everyone else..

That's more or less the way I understood it.  I did not intend to single out the AIII and the 3 day assault pack genre, but instead to make a point.

Everyone's made their feelings clear about this issue, and no one is going to change their minds.  We'll all just have to agree to disagree I guess.  I'm outa this thread boys!

I'd post a pic of HSGI thong underwear (not on me, you assholes) to get this forum back on track but I'd get banninated or something!

Quoted: I'd post a pic of HSGI thong underwear (not on me, you assholes) to get this forum back on track but I'd get banninated or something!

Is it on Stu?   J/K......but does it come in Multicam?

In all honesty, I really do not find anything wrong with buying something that has not infringed on a proprietary law.  I know China does not have these laws in place to protect the creator and their investment.  That is what makes this country great and China.....well, China.  But it seems like they are doing nothing wrong- legally.

I do see your point and how you would naturally want to support the company that developed the product.

But market forces are at work, and I say whoever makes the best product for the best price wins.

I think this thread has degraded to the point that this is required:

Where did you find that pic of me hock.gif


At least it wasnt the one of me and a MC thong

Quoted: Where did you find that pic of me At least it wasnt the one of me and a MC thong

........I bet Not so clever would buy it.

What is funny is that you can argue all day long for people buying "Made in the USA" tactical gear only,  but at the end of the day people are going to get the best they can afford to get with whatever they are willing to budget toward gear.

Sorry, it is true.  People aren't going to buy your gear out of the goodness of their hearts.  They purchase gear because its the best they can afford.

Military and LEO groups will always purchase from American companies because they want the best period.  However, civilians are going to do the best they can and a few civilians purchasing this or that from China isn't going to be the downfall of American tactical gear companies.

I know of not one single US Military or LEO group that is purchasing chinese stuff.  

Buying American is great practice for those who can afford that luxury.  Unfortunately, very few of us can justify spending thousands of dollars on products which can not necessary.

Lets not beat around the bush.  American made products are overpriced.  Perhaps you should direct some of that well meaning energy toward lobbying the government toward reducing the tax and regulatory burden on those manufacturers that still believe in employing Americans.  

American manufacturers have to be competitive with the rest of the world.  

I want to add 2 other points.
We a have same discussions here in germany too about german and foreign goods.
Maybe it´s not so intresting for the US folks and  companies but...

1) I can´t really buy a lot of US stuff here in germany. There are only a few shops which sell those products here. I´ll say something to this point later.
And I can´t buy directly in the US because   98% of the shops won´t export these goods and  for some  I´ll have to get a permission from state department.

2) This stuff, wether it´s scopes, plate carriers and so on,  have the double price here in germany.
You say eagle, Leupold and so is expensive ? Guy we really  pay the doubled price here for this.

So ask me again why I buy  a Phantom vest in Hong Kong via Ebay.