there's a guy claiming to be with NFATCA posting on subguns with more info:
http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=747127

I was reading the stuff over on subguns and one thing I find very intersting that has been lefted out is how the entire NICS check will be completely avoided when a trust/corp is used with a Form 1.

If this is true.  When will it be implemented?



Great news if true! I need one more, but may do several....................

if so, my SOT is remiss in his duties. I have filled out a 4473, but no NICS check.

I also got the note from NFATCA about the change in email. It would only damage credibility if they were lying about it.

Further note, the email I got only said it was referred to DOJ with the recommendation to do it. The ATFE can't do it alone.

Dunno if this will make you folks happy or not.

I can confirm that the NFATCA has really been working on this for years. And I can confirm that there will be something on the organizations front page today about this issue. They already started the public hammering at SAR West. And yes, it has gotten further than it ever did before, which is amazing. ATF has sent it on, but it is not a done deal yet.

Lot's of events were happening to make this issue go "our" way. Yep, lots of trusts. And examiners having to make sure that every trust is legit. That takes a lot of time and craters productivity. Felons accidentally getting possession of weapons that NFA branch approved. Streamlining of process, the fact that certain NFA forms are up for OMB review this year. It's not a money grab for ATF. As somebody already pointed out, ATF don't keep the jack, so they could care less about that aspect, but wouldn't it be a hoot if we balanced the budget with tax stamps?

It's not done yet, but it's looking good.

http://www.nfatca.org/



breaking news You may have heard rumbling on various forums that the CLEO Signature requirement has been eliminated. That is not quite true! What is true is that the NFATCA has been working for several years to make the requirement go away. We used logical, factual arguments to assist ATF in choosing a more reasonable path through the issues.

For a variety of reasons, ATF has finally sent the CLEO Signature elimination package on to the Department of Justice. That does not mean that it will happen. But it is much further than anyone has ever gotten on this issue.

And I think I understand the confusion on NICS checking corporations and other not-individual transfers. The 4473 has a box that says no NICS check required for NFA only. The NFA Handbook says that FFL's are supposed to do NICS checks on these types. Not everyone has read the NFA Handbook and NFA is certainly not reviewed with FFL's on any meaningful basis. Hell, most inspectors don't even know that the handbook exists! So there is some disconnect and I'm not quite sure which is actually right or which one carries more weight. I have calls in...

Miami Dade will not sign off, so its a FL LLC for $150 a year to keep my toys, but if ths LLC rewquirement is removed will the original weapons gotten under my LLC be grandfathered in? Maybe save myself some money and paperwork

At first I was like, "YAY!!!!!" Because neither my local police chief or Sheriff will sign off. But then I remembered in the line of work I'm getting into, EVERYTHING should be in a trust anyway so I guess it's no big deal.



 

In. Let's see where this goes.....

As for why the lawsuit mode met with so much resistance, perhaps the difference is that you tend to catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar?

It is enough to make a difference in transfer

Meh. I'd still use a trust or LLC. Knowing the attitudes of the LE agencies who won't sign off, they'd probably take the notification forms and put you into some "special" flagged database, then send SWAT for any type of call at your house. Better that they just not know.

The rule change will require a copy of the Form 1 or Form 4 to be sent to the CLEO for all transfers, including those to trusts and LLC's.

Could you elaborate? Are you saying if the CLEO requirement goes away those who use an LLC or Trust will have to transfer all their NFA items to themselves, and still pay the $200 tax? If so why?  I would hope the ATF would at least allow people to perhaps F5 it to themselves.

For estate planning purposes, would you still be able to put NFA items in a trust if it was registered to you as an individual?  

If this takes away Trusts, and LLCs I would think it would be a HUGE FAIL for the NFA community.

it probably wouldn't "take away trusts and corps" as a valid holding vessal for NFA items, so any NFA items held by a trust would continue tobe held by the the trust.  If you wanted to transfer the items from the trust/LLC to your personal name, it would probably require a tax-paid Form 4.  You just wouldn't need to get a CLEO sign-off.  So, you would need to weigh the costs of maintaining the corp vs. the one-time cost of paying the tax.  For instance, if you had 3 SBRs, it would cost you $600 to transfer out of the corp, but in 4 years, you'd spend $600 in corp fees.  And if you had mainly AOWs, its a no brainer to spend $5 once, versus $150 per year.

two-round burst without the appropriate tax stamp

I didn't think they had to pay the tax if it was a deceased person transferring to immediate family.     I thought the benefit was the kids or wife or whoever is on the trust could use the registered item without you there.
 

the second this *hopefully* goes into effect I'm buying a suppressor

If the trust is going to be dissolved after the passing of the grantor, then the items on the Schedule A must be transferred.  My understanding is - if you family (heirs) are the recipients of the transfer then a tax free transfer can be initiated.  The items would remain on the trust while awaiting transfer.  As long as your family is named as trustees they would be able to keep possession until a new trust was made and the transfer completed.

I'm not a lawyer, this is my individual understanding.  Seek legal counsel and don't rely on a strangers opinion on the internet.

Edit:  Think about this situation like this:

We currently don't do a NICS check on SBRs, Suppressors, AOWs, MGs etc.  This may be their way of making sure to get a little extra $$ in the transfer process.  At least that's how I see it from my perspective.  From their perspective they're "closing a loophole" and requiring a local background check.  I know in Nevada my CCW is NOT recognized as a NICS waiver, and I MUST pay $25 for a transfer of a pistol, shotgun or rifle.  I like not having to pay that for every suppressor and sbr I purchase.  Keep that in mind.  This may mean the 4473 will change making class 3 items no longer an exempt item.  Going through a NICS background check after going through an ATF/FBI background check is a little ridiculous to me.  My understanding is - that's why the citizenship form has the trusts name & my name on it.  As then my name will have the background check performed on it.

I think this question is specifically covered on the guntrustlawyer.com website at one time.

Basically just like an LLC there are no Heirs, it must transfer via Form 4 tax paid.

The only time the tax free Form 5 can be used is from Individual owned NFA items to their heirs.

Actually, the ownership of the LLC are given to the heirs according to will or probate. The assets remain intact and in place. I'm sure state laws differ enough that there are exceptions and variances.

You are correct that to move a corporate asset out, you would use a form 4.

That is what I thought you meant, I just had my internet tin foil hat on there for a min

As many have correctly opined, trusts/corps/LLC's are not going anywhere. They are still legal persons and can still own NFA items. And they will still be enormously useful tools for many. But those who deploy those tools primarily to deal with CLEO's that will not sign off now have options. They could still go the trust/corp route OR own as an individual, should this get through DoJ. Having more options is better than being railroaded into just one route.

Personally, I do not see ATF giving a pass for those wishing to transfer weapons from such an entity to an individual. It's a transfer and it's gonna cost you $200 per pop if you want to do it. Nobody is forcing you to make the transfer and you already committed to maintaining the original entity when you started.

As for the CLEO notification getting tossed out, hog wash. The CLEO already "knows" about this information when he/she signs off. IOW, there is already precedent (longstanding) for the CLEO to have access to this information. All that would change is that the CLEO will no longer have the ability to obstruct the process unilaterally.

FWIW, there is a difference between you trotting into the chief's office with your forms in hand and ATF sending a copy to him.  You are not bound by any confidentiality laws and can publish your tax documents in the local newspaper if you want to.  ATF, on the other hand, is a government agency and is bound by all the various rules and regulation on how tax documents are handled.

Perhaps the notification will just state "Mr. Joe Blow, a resident of your jurisdiction, has applied to transfer an article controled by the NFA.  If you know of any reason why this transaction should not occur, give us a ring."

I dunno.  We'll just have to wait and see what, if anything, shakes out.  A good effort, though.

I do understand the point you are trying to make. I just don't think it's anything but a non-sequitur. The CLEO has always been granted access to the form for the past many decades. It has been part of the process and will continue to be so. The notification thing is just the same as what happens when you apply for an FFL. I would LOVE for CLEO's to not be involved at all. But that is just not going to happen. I am actually quite pleased with some progress as opposed to none at all.

my guess would be that it would similar to how the 03FFL app is done.  you send a copy of the Form to the CLEO and note on the other copies who you sent it to.  I'm assuming that if the copy gets sent to the CLEO before the approval and tax stamp is attached, that it isn't a "tax return" yet, and that you are the one sending it to the CLEO, not someone else that would be divulging tax info.

The $25 fee must be something Nevada does, because it doesn't cost an FFL anything to contact the federal FBI-run NICS system.  Nevada is one of the states where FFLs contact a state NICS system (which is then tied into the national system), instead of contacting the feds directly.  But since the $25 fee is imposed by Nevada, not the feds, I don't think the ATF would care because they're not collecting any part of that fee.